Real Difference Between Traitor and Loyalist Terminators

[techsoldaten]

Having a hard time understanding the real difference between Chaos and Loyalist Terminators. Wondering if anyone would be willing to spell it out for me.

 

I get the fact we do not get Terminator assault squads and am not looking for a comparison there. Let's keep it to plain terminators.

 

It seems to me that Chaos terminators get a similar weapons load out and all the same terminator benefits. The real advantages come from the presence of special rules and tactics.

 

Is this correct? I just don't seem them being used much and am curious why.

[Olis]

I take it this is a rules question and not a fluff question, right? If so my answer would be; pretty much. :)

[Brother Ambroz]

Really the only thing they have that's similiar is their stats and like half their weapons. They all have different rules than we do I.E. fearless, grenades and far better upgrades. Really the only thing our units are good for is small anti-tank units.

[Brom MKIV]

Special rules and antiquated equipment. Chaos has tl bolters vs stormbolters, reaper ac vs cyclone missile launcher, no th/ss option low capacity subpar transports. And I may have missed a few. That being said I dont think csm terminators are that bad for 30 pts. They are very comparable to space wolves actually with combi weapons, counter attack for 3 pts/model vs. a real +1 attack/model for 30 pts. Wolves get th/ss but honestly whens the last time you saw a competitive list take any? Never, its more a fluffy option. In fact wolves need to pay for drop pods to DS in while csm terminators have pinpoint accurate strikes available via icons. Anyway from what ive seen and what Ive actually used, small units bring a small return while bigger units are capable of greater things.

[Brother Nihm]

Another one,

They have Relentless, we do not.

[maverike_prime]

Another one,

They have Relentless, we do not.

 

THIS!!!! I've been beaten in the face over this one cause the description for the Chaos Terminator Armor specifically says they are capable of moving and firing heavy weapons but the unit itself does not have the relentless special rule there for do not benefit from it.

[Brom MKIV]

They have Relentless, we do not.

True although anyone who actually tries to enforce this is an ass plain and simple. TDA is TDA and I would hope that most gamers wouldnt get hung up on this sort of thing.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

They have Relentless, we do not.

True although anyone who actually tries to enforce this is an ass plain and simple. TDA is TDA and I would hope that most gamers wouldnt get hung up on this sort of thing.

 

Don't play in Austin, TX then. RAW is RAW here. :lol:

[Zeller]

I think this pretty much sums it up.

 

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i369/MarineErrant/themaindifferencebetweenchaosandloyalists.png

[Brother Nihm]

They have Relentless, we do not.

True although anyone who actually tries to enforce this is an ass plain and simple. TDA is TDA and I would hope that most gamers wouldnt get hung up on this sort of thing.

 

Don't play in Austin, TX then. RAW is RAW here. :)

The same goes for my country, barring fun 40K events where almost anything goes and the rules are changed to promote lesser used units.

[the jeske]

reapers vs cyclons . same shots buy cyclons cost less are str 8 and ap 3 . even AC that loyalist no longer use are better , more shots and possible rending .

 

no way to deliver the termis in to range. no pods to block LoS [to use units other then fire and forget 3xcombi melta] , our LR are crap [no frags , no potms , ours are actualy 5 man so we cant get a proper sized unit etc] .

 

our termis run away.

[AoC]

All comes down to rules. Chaos ones just suck for anything bar termicide.

 

It would be cool to see proper chaos terminators in next codex (wishlisting alert!):

-power weapons should be better (possibly giving +1 to inv saves for swords, ability to use as two handed for axes for +1/+2 str, some cool rules for maces) AND there should be rules for combat attachments on our combi weapons (counts as additional ccw, so CT armed with swords have 2+1 S4 attacks and 4++ in close combat).

 

-combi-weapons and combi-bolters should allow firing both weapons, not just one-time shoot with special weapon part and counts as bolter. Packing 4 bolter rounds at short distances and 2 at long would make it good weapons actually (with possible drawback when firing both weapons, re-roll '3' for termies and re-roll '3' and '4' for power armor when firing both would be suitable, keeping them for termies and vehicles is the way to go, power armored marines would use them more like just special weapons).

 

-better statline (they are chaos veterans, it's something more than loyalist veterans, or make two version of them, one with current statline and one with paladin statline to represent chosen terminators)

 

-fearless for chosen terminators and re-roll failed morale for lesser terminators (and the entire army)

 

-proper point cost

 

-ability to take proper gifts and marks from the dark gods, not crap icons

 

-better reaper autocannons ? Fixing twin-linked rules would help too ...

 

-good support from the rest of list (like sorcerers who have supportive spells, some ability that allow them to be not hosed by terrain - maybe from land rider ? More seats in land rider, or possibly variant landriders ? or even new vehicle that can transport terminators ?), ability to make them troops, maybe some reserve manipulation or more reliable (with better range) scatter help.

[Lord_Caerolion]

They have Relentless, we do not.

True although anyone who actually tries to enforce this is an ass plain and simple. TDA is TDA and I would hope that most gamers wouldnt get hung up on this sort of thing.

 

So, that would have been like the Storm Shields the Dark Angels had being officially different than the Storm Shields the Ultramarines had (until recently)? If you really want an explanation for why they're different, Chaos have the Heresy-era Terminator armour, which isn't as advanced as the modern version. There, problem averted.

[the jeske]

most terminator armor in loyalist hands now was build around the heresy . so it wouldnt fly[from fluff point of view that is] . chaos terminator armor in rules is different because it is Chaos terminator armor . just that[+Gav being unable to write rules].

 

IMO termis could even stay the way they are now [and no am not happy with the whole icons/stat line thing] , if they gave us proper transport for the unit . The problems with the termis could be avoided[at least in casual builds] , if our LR didnt suck so hard. No frags , no POTMs smaller then loyalist LRs , if we take possession we gain almost nothing[save costing almost like loyalist LR] . either make chaos LR cost 200pts or less, with the rules they have now or give us better LRs . Wouldnt make termis top tier , but at least it wouldnt hurt the list so much to take a non 3 man unit of termis.

 

+ if ward is so crazy about bringing back RT fluff , then back in those days termis did have a special LR just for them .

[Brother Stynier]

How is it we can't assault after shooting Rapid Fire and Heavy Weapons, when the entry for terminator armor says specifically that models in Terminator Armor can? Did I miss the memo saying that unless you have a special rule you can't do what your entry says you can?

[JamesI]

How is it we can't assault after shooting Rapid Fire and Heavy Weapons, when the entry for terminator armor says specifically that models in Terminator Armor can? Did I miss the memo saying that unless you have a special rule you can't do what your entry says you can?

You can. The big problem not having Relentless brings is that if you move you can't fire your combi-bolters more than 12 inches while a loyalist terminator with a combi-weapon could.

[Slayer le Boucher]

In fact the wording is like this in the CSM dex"...models with Terminator armours can launch an assault even after firing rapid fire and/or heavy weapons..."

 

The CSM Dex was made pre 5Ed, where the Relentless rule came along, in wich it says " ...models with termie armors can launch an assault after firing rapid fire or heavy weapons, they count as being stationary when shooting, even if they moved...", that extra line make the difference.

 

Even if being a World Eater player, its not a big deal for me...

[jumai]

In terms of shooting efficiency, we actually beat them out in smaller squads via combi weapons and 30 point models. Lacking relentless is an uncalled-for kick in the shins, but it's not the real dealbreaker.

 

Besides the TH/SS advantage (which be honest is enormous, loyalist CC termies are much better and much cheaper), what C:SM has over Chaos is Land Raiders that can drive eight guys around and even still shoot. While Chaos terminators can be theoretically cheap and plentiful, taking enough bodies for that means walking (with their shorter range guns and worse AP resilience), or teleporting (with their frisbee size deepstrike footprint). So what you can realistically do is trade out your efficiency upgrading 5 guys until they matter, pay 220 points for a tank that you drive directly up to his meltaguns instead of shooting with, die inordinately fast to plasma or power weapons, and wonder what went wrong.

 

If your play group is ok with that sort of thing, ask if you can take a LRCrusader with no upgrades as their dedicated transport option. That would go a long way towards un-crippling the unit.

[Zeller]

A LRC in a traitor legion? Surely you jest sir? I can see it in renegades though. Give chaos LR the corrupted admech AI or machine spirit. It would be cool if we could actually have a fully autonomous demon controlled cortex instead of the machine spirit given that the dark mechanicus isn't bound by Imperial laws. The tank could ignore stunned/shaken, and each gun could target a separate target. Something to make it different and express the technological focus of the dark mechanicus.

 

Giving the traitor legion armies preferred enemy against other space marines would help given their experience in that sort of thing. Additionaly, perhaps a rule similar to bolter drill to represent their incredibly long history of weapon operation. Or to make it more simple just make a rule that allows traitor legions to re-roll all hits. I don't think creating a chaos answer to TH/SS would make much sense. Chaos have their gear.

[jumai]

A LRC in a traitor legion? Surely you jest sir?

Well I don't recommend you name or model it that way. I understood the OP to be asking a strictly rules-focused question, and answered in kind. I trust Chaos players to have at least passing familiarity with the corruption and desecration of a lapdog Imperial kitbox. There's at least a gajillion different rare and esoteric Heresy-era relics/D-Mechanicus prototypes/repurposed salvage items that could reasonably be shoot 24" and be bolted to a Land Raider.

 

Unless they've changed the fluff, nowhere in the holdings of any Traitor Legion is even one land raider related STC template. Brother MacGuyverus has been patching those suckers up with gum, eavestroughs and sentient extradimensional hate for millenia now. Think about the oldest, crappiest, cardboard-over-the-floor-holes car someone had when you were 16, then imagine what he'd have to do to get it started after an amount of time that easily exceeds the current length of recorded history.

[Sappysid101]

You can't forget that the Chaos Terminators look better ; )

 

- Sid

 

*Thats purely an opinion xD

[d@n]

not having and they shall know no fear or fearless is there biggest let down. having a whole squad of termys leg it and get mowed down is harse. You should be able to throw a unit of terminators at just about anything without fear, but thats not so with the currant dex.

[Lexington]

They have Relentless, we do not.

True although anyone who actually tries to enforce this is an ass plain and simple. TDA is TDA and I would hope that most gamers wouldnt get hung up on this sort of thing.

 

Don't play in Austin, TX then. RAW is RAW here. :P

This seems more than mildly ridiculous to me. The only entity in the known universe that does not acknowledge the Chaos Codex's enormous problems is Games Workshop themselves, and even their own ex-Designers admit it was a mistake of a book. Why not fix it?

[Agent Purple]

In terms of shooting efficiency, we actually beat them out in smaller squads via combi weapons and 30 point models. Lacking relentless is an uncalled-for kick in the shins, but it's not the real dealbreaker.

 

Besides the TH/SS advantage (which be honest is enormous, loyalist CC termies are much better and much cheaper), what C:SM has over Chaos is Land Raiders that can drive eight guys around and even still shoot. While Chaos terminators can be theoretically cheap and plentiful, taking enough bodies for that means walking (with their shorter range guns and worse AP resilience), or teleporting (with their frisbee size deepstrike footprint). So what you can realistically do is trade out your efficiency upgrading 5 guys until they matter, pay 220 points for a tank that you drive directly up to his meltaguns instead of shooting with, die inordinately fast to plasma or power weapons, and wonder what went wrong.

 

If your play group is ok with that sort of thing, ask if you can take a LRCrusader with no upgrades as their dedicated transport option. That would go a long way towards un-crippling the unit.

 

For corrupted machine spirit, what about in the shooting phase, either firing an additional weapon at BS3 or firing no weapons and moving an extra 6" straight ahead (does not stack with movement phase movement for the purposes of ramming, but can be used to ram/tankshock otherwise)? Different, is more aggressive than a loyalist LR. The fact that the movement happens in the shooting phase (after disemark moves) should stop it from being too OP.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

They have Relentless, we do not.

True although anyone who actually tries to enforce this is an ass plain and simple. TDA is TDA and I would hope that most gamers wouldnt get hung up on this sort of thing.

 

Don't play in Austin, TX then. RAW is RAW here. -_-

This seems more than mildly ridiculous to me. The only entity in the known universe that does not acknowledge the Chaos Codex's enormous problems is Games Workshop themselves, and even their own ex-Designers admit it was a mistake of a book. Why not fix it?

 

The problems are acknowledged, but because tournaments are considered "serious as cancer" business here, it doesn't matter how devoid of intelligence or logic a rule is, if it's RAW, then it's RAW and inviolable, because it's expected that a tournament will enforce RAW over RAI. The method of madness here is that it's GW's responsibility to fix their mistakes through new editions and/or FAQs.