Real Difference Between Traitor and Loyalist Terminators

[Brother Nihm]

Now imagine a world where that actually happened, and many models were sold at the same time.

 

Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

[Lexington]

The problems are acknowledged, but because tournaments are considered "serious as cancer" business here, it doesn't matter how devoid of intelligence or logic a rule is, if it's RAW, then it's RAW and inviolable, because it's expected that a tournament will enforce RAW over RAI. The method of madness here is that it's GW's responsibility to fix their mistakes through new editions and/or FAQs.

Ah, yeah, I forgot how crazy the Austin meta-stuff is. I mean, all possible love to the Fly Lords and crew (yes, even Goatboy - especially Goatboy, actually), but the success they've had at tournaments and with BoLS has, probably unintentionally, spawned a pretty toxic mentality amongst the community. The game went through some radical changes with 5th Ed, but GW's sissypants corporate policy of mandating backwards-compatability forever and ever means that a lot of Codexes were left in the lurch. Pretending the problem doesn't exist isn't a good way to deal with it.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

They have Relentless, we do not.

True although anyone who actually tries to enforce this is an ass plain and simple. TDA is TDA and I would hope that most gamers wouldnt get hung up on this sort of thing.

 

Don't play in Austin, TX then. RAW is RAW here. :)

This seems more than mildly ridiculous to me. The only entity in the known universe that does not acknowledge the Chaos Codex's enormous problems is Games Workshop themselves, and even their own ex-Designers admit it was a mistake of a book. Why not fix it?

 

The problems are acknowledged, but because tournaments are considered "serious as cancer" business here, it doesn't matter how devoid of intelligence or logic a rule is, if it's RAW, then it's RAW and inviolable, because it's expected that a tournament will enforce RAW over RAI. The method of madness here is that it's GW's responsibility to fix their mistakes through new editions and/or FAQs.

 

 

Since I live in Austin and am putting together an army, where do these tournaments take place so I know to avoid the place like the plague?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Since I live in Austin and am putting together an army, where do these tournaments take place so I know to avoid the place like the plague?

 

PM me, I'm not going to spiral this thread off-topic any more than it already has been.

[BlkTom]

To be honest, I like Chaos Assault Terminators.

 

But lets stay on topic and break it down point-wise. Let's try to make Chaos equals to Marine Terminators.

 

Marine Terminator is a Powerfist and Stormbolter, 50pts

 

Chaos Marine Terminator with a Powerfist and Twin-Linked Bolter is 40pts.

 

Sounds like a deal, right? I mean, stat-wise the Chaos Marine champions gets an extra attack and all chaos terminators are Leadership 10! Plus all of them can be upgraded to champions for a mere 10pts each! What is not to love? There is also that little relentless debate, but that has been covered. Only difference now is that Twin Linked Bolter vs a Stormbolter... but TLed Bolters are /not/ Stormbolters. Congratulations, you might hit more with those 5 shots, but marines can hit with 10 shots (if they are lucky). Gee, Stormbolters are worth 10pts too, that right there almost makes up the difference! But a TL Bolter and a better Ld stat has to count for something, right? Oh yeah... And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics.... equals Priceless.

 

Sure, Combat Squads doesn't mean alot, as we can have a 3 man squad, while a marine minimum is 5 men. But ATSKNF and CT, ahhhh.... /that/ is the big winnah. You can't say that for -10pts and a better Ld stat that this is equal. Sure, for an extra 10pts to the squad, Chaos can get a leadership re-roll, but you can have only one Icon. Period. I guess Black Legion it is, to hell with your ideas of going mono God and having Nurgle, Khorn, or whatever legion you were making. If you do, be prepared to watch your dice crap out on you and watch them run like little girls... not the baddest of the bad.

 

Moral is the difference, you can't put a price on ATSKNF, Chaos can't grant it, equal it, or better it. Fearless is a close second... till you get in hand to hand and you take all those fearless wounds when you lose combat on your 1 wound guys... if Chaos Terminators could ever get Fearless that is.

 

And that is me trying to answer your question as clearly as possible. Yes, your paying 210pts for 5 Chaos Terminators with PF and a IoCG vs a 250pt 5 man Marine Terminator squad. I really hope that this makes it clear that your squad is no way equal to the marine squad, even if it costs less.

[BlkTom]

That is one of the bigger problems with Chaos in general, they are pale imitations of Marines. You break down the same comparisons with other equipment (Land Raiders, Dreadnaughts, ect), units (Havocs, Raptors, ect), HQ (Scorc vs a Librarian???) and Chaos loses those comparisons more than it ties (Predator) or wins (havoc/combi Rhinos). The three best (arguable, I know) Chaos units are not even on the Marine list... DP, Oblits, and Demolishers.

 

My extra 2 zenni...

[Vilicate]

To be honest, I like Chaos Assault Terminators.

 

But lets stay on topic and break it down point-wise. Let's try to make Chaos equals to Marine Terminators.

 

Marine Terminator is a Powerfist and Stormbolter, 50pts

 

Chaos Marine Terminator with a Powerfist and Twin-Linked Bolter is 40pts.

 

Sounds like a deal, right? I mean, stat-wise the Chaos Marine champions gets an extra attack and all chaos terminators are Leadership 10! Plus all of them can be upgraded to champions for a mere 10pts each! What is not to love? There is also that little relentless debate, but that has been covered. Only difference now is that Twin Linked Bolter vs a Stormbolter... but TLed Bolters are /not/ Stormbolters. Congratulations, you might hit more with those 5 shots, but marines can hit with 10 shots (if they are lucky). Gee, Stormbolters are worth 10pts too, that right there almost makes up the difference! But a TL Bolter and a better Ld stat has to count for something, right? Oh yeah... And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics.... equals Priceless.

 

The only problem with this is that the Marine terminator in question is 40 pts as well, not 50 as described above. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the combi-bolter is the equal of the storm bolter, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

The marine has got the same leadership, plus has combat tactics and and they shall know no fear. Plus the option for the Cyclone, which is better than the reaper all seven days a week.

 

The big advantage that Chaos Terminators have is access to cheap combi-weapons and and a cheaper basic cost, because they have power weapons standard. Also, you can take a cheap unit of three, instead of the five mandatory that you have to take with the Loyalists.

 

That being said, I always loved taking a nice, big unit of them with my slaaneshii chaos army, because it's lots of shots, and decent assault unit with I5 once you have them the icon.

[BlkTom]

I stand corrected on the marine Cost...40pts (200pts for 5). I had it stuck in my head the unit was 250pts, not 200pts. That actually makes it worse in my opinion. Power weapons are not an advantage and are not better than power fists. It is a nice option that the marines don't have en mass, but the difference being lack of a power fist and a storm bolter that the vannilla marine gets for free. Vannilla Marine is only Ld 9, Chaos marine is Ld 10. But of course it is the Combat Tactics difference and ATSKNF.

[Chengar Qordath]

I stand corrected on the marine Cost...40pts (200pts for 5). I had it stuck in my head the unit was 250pts, not 200pts. That actually makes it worse in my opinion. Power weapons are not an advantage and are not better than power fists. It is a nice option that the marines don't have en mass, but the difference being lack of a power fist and a storm bolter that the vannilla marine gets for free.

It sounds like your still a bit mixed up on how point costs work; Chaos Terminators with power weapons are 10 points-per-model cheaper than Loyalist Terminators, not the same price. Also, within 12", a TL-bolter is better than a Storm Bolter, so I would say the two weapons are reasonably comparable.

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Chaos Terminators are one of the less broken units in the Codex; their biggest problem has always been the crap-tastic nature of the Chaos Land Raider and the more general issues with how marks/icons are handled. Aside from that, they're biggest problem is that the Reaper is underpowered and overpriced,

[Kevlarshark]

I like the Combi-bolters and Reaper AC, re-rolls are my friend :D

 

If you look at the combi vs a storm the storm bolter has one more shot at +12 inches and therefore more useful for long range...

but once you are inside the 12" the combi can rapid fire with a re-roll making it way superior at close range. I feel this matches to the chaos fluff and dont have a problem with combi.

 

Ok the reaper is no assault cannon or cyclone launcher and costs a lot, but it has decent strength/range and excellent accuracy (and boy do I miss the days when you could have one for every 3 termies).

 

+wish listing+ If the reaper had either -

• one more shot
  
• a re-roll on wounds/vehicle AP
  
• or a forced re-roll on passed armour saves
  

 

I feel its points would be justifyed

 

All of the HQ and elites in the Chaos Codex suffer from a "less than elite" feel to them, but termies and chosen annoyed me (from the second I read the preview codex in my local GW) because they are less elite than the guys in the troops section!

 

I dont really care how they match up to the loyalist terminators, I can cope with their lack of relentless/storm shields and assaut cannons

(I can justify this with the fluff)...I am upset because my 40 ish point Khorne termies (the elite of my bezerkers) are less skilled, have less attacks and are generally weaker than the 20 ish point troops choice they are supposed to be an upgrade of.

[Chengar Qordath]

The lack of Relentless is, as other have mentioned, just a consequence of having a pre-5th edition codex; the Black Templars and Dark Angels have the same issue. If it were a better handled within the codex itself, the Mark of Tzeentch could also somewhat offset the lack of storm shields; 4++ for everyone is a decent alternative to 3++ with one specific wargear combination.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

+wish listing+ If the reaper had either -

• one more shot
  
• a re-roll on wounds/vehicle AP
  
• or a forced re-roll on passed armour saves
  

 

I'd add a fourth possible addition: Rending. Psycannon is a 4-shot 24" Reaper with Rending that's also Assault if you only use half the shots, on a Troops choice, for the same price we pay for a Reaper on an Elites choice.

[minigun762]

+wish listing+ If the reaper had either -

• one more shot
  
• a re-roll on wounds/vehicle AP
  
• or a forced re-roll on passed armour saves
  

 

I'd add a fourth possible addition: Rending. Psycannon is a 4-shot 24" Reaper with Rending that's also Assault if you only use half the shots, on a Troops choice, for the same price we pay for a Reaper on an Elites choice.

 

I'd be quite fine with the RAC as is if it got a price reduction. It was an early development of the assault cannon and so I'm fine with it not being quite as good, it just shouldn't be as expensive.

 

Otherwise I would go with either the +1 shot. Rending has a strong precedent but the weapon starts to feel very Loyalist-like then but the extra shot puts it right in between an assault cannon and an autocannon which is exactly where it fits. It then feels balanced against the assault cannon with +1S +12" and TL'd versus +1 shot and Rending.

[BlkTom]

I stand corrected on the marine Cost...40pts (200pts for 5). I had it stuck in my head the unit was 250pts, not 200pts. That actually makes it worse in my opinion. Power weapons are not an advantage and are not better than power fists. It is a nice option that the marines don't have en mass, but the difference being lack of a power fist and a storm bolter that the vannilla marine gets for free.

It sounds like your still a bit mixed up on how point costs work; Chaos Terminators with power weapons are 10 points-per-model cheaper than Loyalist Terminators, not the same price. Also, within 12", a TL-bolter is better than a Storm Bolter, so I would say the two weapons are reasonably comparable.

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Chaos Terminators are one of the less broken units in the Codex; their biggest problem has always been the crap-tastic nature of the Chaos Land Raider and the more general issues with how marks/icons are handled. Aside from that, they're biggest problem is that the Reaper is underpowered and overpriced,

 

 

I am not confused at all... if a Chaos Terminator wants a Powerfist to be equal to the Marine terminator, they cost the same. The comparison is between the two... so if you wanted PFs on your Chaos TDA, your paying 40pts a pop. Relentless and heavy weapons have been covered.

 

There is a reason Chaos players use Terminators as a suicide unit...because of the moral issues and lack of a decent delivery system. If Chaos had the same delivery systems (or comparible), would the base Terminators be as good? Would Chaos use Terminators as much as other Marine players? I still think even then the moral issue would be the killer. Soon as a guy dies your flirting with your whole squad breaking.

[Kevlarshark]

I am not confused at all... if a Chaos Terminator wants a Powerfist to be equal to the Marine terminator, they cost the same. The comparison is between the two... so if you wanted PFs on your Chaos TDA, your paying 40pts a pop. Relentless and heavy weapons have been covered.

 

There is a reason Chaos players use Terminators as a suicide unit...because of the moral issues and lack of a decent delivery system. If Chaos had the same delivery systems (or comparible), would the base Terminators be as good? Would Chaos use Terminators as much as other Marine players? I still think even then the moral issue would be the killer. Soon as a guy dies your flirting with your whole squad breaking.

 

Exactily a chaos player would pay 40pts for a model with the same equipment (combi bolter aside) and base stats but his termi would still be inferior because he lacks Relentless, ATSKNF and Combat/Chapter Tactics. So while Chaos Terminators initally seem like a good comparison to the Loyalist ones (points wise) they are lacking 3 skills and because of that will (games wise) work out less effective.

 

My conclusion is that Chaos Terminators are

 

Over Costed

Under Powered

 

The Icon System and Terminator Champion Options do not counter this fairly large inbalance.

[Chengar Qordath]

I am not confused at all... if a Chaos Terminator wants a Powerfist to be equal to the Marine terminator, they cost the same. The comparison is between the two... so if you wanted PFs on your Chaos TDA, your paying 40pts a pop. Relentless and heavy weapons have been covered.

 

There is a reason Chaos players use Terminators as a suicide unit...because of the moral issues and lack of a decent delivery system. If Chaos had the same delivery systems (or comparible), would the base Terminators be as good? Would Chaos use Terminators as much as other Marine players? I still think even then the moral issue would be the killer. Soon as a guy dies your flirting with your whole squad breaking.

Ignoring the option of saving 10 points per model by not taking fists on everyone is a mistake; the option for the cheapest base-cost Terminators in any codex is one of the only advantages Chaos Terminators have over their Loyalist counterparts. They also have the Deathwing's ablity to mix-and-match equipment, so you can have nice things like a heavy flamer or two in a close-combat unit.

 

I don't think anyone disputes that Chaos Terminators are a weak option, but give them a decent Land Raider and a fixed icon/Mark system and their problems would mostly be fixed.

[Spear of Achilles]

Well, they are ok if you have Mark of Slannesh and LC's. A buncha Dual LC Termy Champs will fek up a TH/SS squad at init 5...

[Brother Nihm]

Well, they are ok if you have Mark of Slannesh and LC's. A buncha Dual LC Termy Champs will fek up a TH/SS squad at init 5...

True, but, chances are that they will be wiped out before they get to said TH/SS squad or during the melee, given that the TH/SS Terminators have a reliable delivery method and better synergy with other units & characters.

[spafe]

There is a reason Chaos players use Terminators as a suicide unit...because of the moral issues and lack of a decent delivery system. If Chaos had the same delivery systems (or comparible), would the base Terminators be as good? Would Chaos use Terminators as much as other Marine players? I still think even then the moral issue would be the killer. Soon as a guy dies your flirting with your whole squad breaking.

 

HAHA Sorry, I had to do a double take when I read your last line, first read through it and thought you meant because we are chaos we have no moral code, so sacrifice our troops liberally. Makes more sense your way :P Sorry, I'll go now

[Brother Ambroz]

I am not confused at all... if a Chaos Terminator wants a Powerfist to be equal to the Marine terminator, they cost the same. The comparison is between the two... so if you wanted PFs on your Chaos TDA, your paying 40pts a pop. Relentless and heavy weapons have been covered.

 

There is a reason Chaos players use Terminators as a suicide unit...because of the moral issues and lack of a decent delivery system. If Chaos had the same delivery systems (or comparible), would the base Terminators be as good? Would Chaos use Terminators as much as other Marine players? I still think even then the moral issue would be the killer. Soon as a guy dies your flirting with your whole squad breaking.

Ignoring the option of saving 10 points per model by not taking fists on everyone is a mistake; the option for the cheapest base-cost Terminators in any codex is one of the only advantages Chaos Terminators have over their Loyalist counterparts. They also have the Deathwing's ablity to mix-and-match equipment, so you can have nice things like a heavy flamer or two in a close-combat unit.

 

I don't think anyone disputes that Chaos Terminators are a weak option, but give them a decent Land Raider and a fixed icon/Mark system and their problems would mostly be fixed.

 

I have tried that and guess what? It failed miserably. Khornate beserkers are 2x as good at CC. Chaos terminators are horrible for much else other than a suicide run. If they made the "icons" do the same thing as cult units then hell yeah termies might actually be useful.

[Hellios]

I would pay 40pts for a Terminator with a combi-bolter & power weapon... WS5... 3 attacks on profile... relentless... fearless... and Furious charge! A real cult terminator... alas... it is not so!

[Kevlarshark]

I would pay 40pts for a Terminator with a combi-bolter & power weapon... WS5... 3 attacks on profile... relentless... fearless... and Furious charge! A real cult terminator... alas... it is not so!

 

Yes! and a major bargain at 40pts! If you equiped the standard bezerker with the termi armour he should be 51pts...

 

Probably still worth the points package though!

[Excessus]

51 points? A chosen only pays 12 points and lose infiltration for his termie armour.

[Hellios]

I would pay 40pts for a Terminator with a combi-bolter & power weapon... WS5... 3 attacks on profile... relentless... fearless... and Furious charge! A real cult terminator... alas... it is not so!

 

Yes! and a major bargain at 40pts! If you equiped the standard bezerker with the termi armour he should be 51pts...

 

Probably still worth the points package though!

 

Oh maybe it should cost more than 40... but 51... not sure... GK Paladins have WS5 (so that would be the same) and Furious charge is pretty neat but is it as good as an extra wound? Personally I don't think so... Is the extra attack too much... nah I don't think so... or not by much. Paladins have a NFW which is certainly superior to a power weapon... Storm bolters and combi-bolters are roughly the same.

 

So The difference then is Ld10/fearless against Ld9 with lots of nades, the ageis (Anti-psyker stuff would be good for khorne as well!), ATSKNF, combat squad, prefered enemy (daemons) and then psychic powers! Personally I think what those Paladins have is worth more than 4pts... Ahh well...

[BlkTom]

Well, they are ok if you have Mark of Slannesh and LC's. A buncha Dual LC Termy Champs will fek up a TH/SS squad at init 5...

 

 

Err... the Hammers strike at Init 1... What is your point? The Init does nothing in a situation when your fighting Init 1 foes. I would rather have Mark of Khorn for the Extra attack, then make them all champs and charge for 6 attacks each. IMO this is the best use of Chaos Terminators... as any mark makes the LCs cool. You just have to hope you wipe them out because your probably going to break if they get return strikes. It is the lack of a delivery system and again the moral issues that kills Chaos Terminators set up in a assault role.

 

And yeah, Chosen are neat... but you can't put them in Terminator armor and they have the same problem... LD 10 and nothing else... no Fearless, no ATSKNF, not even Stubborn. That is a scary thing that IG are better at moral matters than Chaos Marines...

 

If the Mark of Slannesh gave a +1 Init no matter what (so a PF was Init 2) or was a +2 Init bonus, it would actually be worth the points.