Why aren't we using more plasma?

[SevenExxes]

Ah ok. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Blood Angels hardly ever die to plasma as you have to roll a 1, followed by 1-2, and then usually 1-3. That's like... 3%?

That only works if you cover every plasma gunner with a priest; a very costly configuration. Then if you consider rapid firing you thereby double the likely hood of a Get’s Hot! result throwing the math off even more.

 

Plasma is excellent against well armored infantry, e.g. terminators. That’s where the rapid fire comes most into play. When such targets aren’t around there’s light vehicles or maybe high toughness targets to consider. Barring that, 2+ wounds w/o an armor save isn’t too bad no matter what your target.

 

Melta is still excellent against well armored infantry but also consider its added advantage vs. vehicles AND the 0% chance of killing its operator AND its generally cheaper cost AND the fact that you can assault after firing; things begin to stack up pretty quickly in its favor.

 

I personally never take plasma in my infantry squads; cannons, guns or pistols. I value my marines too highly than to spend big points only to lose the gun & the marine to fickle die rolls when my alternatives were just as viable.

 

-OMG

[captain Angel]

I would only include one plasma gun in each company, with exception of 1 8 9 and 10th companies, none on devs or ras, and would maybe include 3 plasma cannons for 2 3 4 5th companies and maybe 6 for the 9 th, as for pistols, maybe 10 in the whole chapter.

 

just my 2 cents

 

on second thought put two or three plasma guns in the 6th and seventh companies, and maybe 2 plasma cannons in those to

[Mykra]

With the proliferation of power weapons in most assault-oriented Blood Angel armies, the plasma weapon's boons usually doesn't outweigh their drawbacks.

 

I have used plasma guard and vet's before -especially against Nids - and they can be quite effective, it's usually just more of a frill you add in instead of a stock option to count on like the melta.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

as an interesting side note you'd think with how upset people get facing BAs with FNP you'd see more Plasmaguns in other armies.

[knife&fork]

I would only include one plasma gun in each company, with exception of 1 8 9 and 10th companies, none on devs or ras, and would maybe include 3 plasma cannons for 2 3 4 5th companies and maybe 6 for the 9 th, as for pistols, maybe 10 in the whole chapter.

 

just my 2 cents

 

on second thought put two or three plasma guns in the 6th and seventh companies, and maybe 2 plasma cannons in those to

 

I envy your apoc games.

[Thornoo1]

Plasma has its place in the right list. I'm currently running a mech only list with plasma/las on a few of my razor backs and in these the 5 man squads have a plasma gun as well. This allows an unload and 4 plasma shots and if within 6" of my starting point a lascannon as well. As I generally wont be able to assault the loss of the assault aspect of a melta isn't a huge lose. The lascannon on top of the razors is where I derive some of the replacement anti tank that the loss of the meltas has opened within my list.

 

In my DoA there is no room for plasma as the play style is completely different.

[Brightguy]

For me, it's cost. Looking at the 3rd ed dex and it's 6pts for a plasma gun and 5pts for a pistol. If that were still the cost, you'd see a lot more plasma in my army.

[knife&fork]

I think 10 pts would be fair for all special weapons. Flamer, Melta, Plasma, Plasma pistol, Infernus, Hand flamer. All of them have strengths and drawbacks.

[Gv0zD]

I would say the biggest reason why we don’t use plasma is because most BA armies are designed to table their opponent not sit on objectives. I use a plasma HQ squad for taking out light armor and monstrous creatures. This squad has served my DOA army well by supporting my troops with FNP and furious charge so I do not need to get them in CC.

This is the tactics I use as well. I really like Honor Guard loaded with plasma guns. With jumppacks they are able to relocate quicky and shoot at nasty units you don't to face in HtH, or MCs, or light armor. The mobile fnp/fc bubble is also great for supporting assault troops such as VV or RAS. But with all my love to plasma weaponry I'd never give it to RAS, as 1) with rapid fire you get no assault and 2) you risk overheating with no fnp. Plasa Postols are just too pricey for my tastes.

 

As for melta superiority, I came to the following conclusion: two 10 men RAS equipped with 2 meltaguns are able to effectively pop up any armor, you don't need more of them. Concentrated plasma fire is great for suppport - with 4 plasmaguns you can fire up to 8 s7 ap2 shots before your nearby units can assault and finish off the targeted enemy unit. However when playing pure DoA be sure to have CC unit nearby your plasma squad to prevent enemy assaulting your shooters. Otherwise you can use plasma HG to deal with enemy shooters. I like using mine vs Broadsides, so they wipe out the squad wihout the need to further assault them and thus enable my VV deal with other units like Crisis suits. Same thing happens with shooting off Long fangs, Devastators etc.

 

Overall, pasma is good supportive weapon, but it requires certain tactics and use. In DoA it's pretty handy. In mech lists plasma is also good, but has lower utility, as you can take assault cannons on baal or razors, as well as autocanons, that work as good vs infantry and armor. However a squad of devs with 2 plasmacannons and 2 mssile launchers is rather good and flexible.

[Elsven]

I would say the biggest reason why we don’t use plasma is because most BA armies are designed to table their opponent not sit on objectives. I use a plasma HQ squad for taking out light armor and monstrous creatures. This squad has served my DOA army well by supporting my troops with FNP and furious charge so I do not need to get them in CC.

This is the tactics I use as well. I really like Honor Guard loaded with plasma guns. With jumppacks they are able to relocate quicky and shoot at nasty units you don't to face in HtH, or MCs, or light armor. The mobile fnp/fc bubble is also great for supporting assault troops such as VV or RAS. But with all my love to plasma weaponry I'd never give it to RAS, as 1) with rapid fire you get no assault and 2) you risk overheating with no fnp. Plasa Postols are just too pricey for my tastes.

 

As for melta superiority, I came to the following conclusion: two 10 men RAS equipped with 2 meltaguns are able to effectively pop up any armor, you don't need more of them. Concentrated plasma fire is great for suppport - with 4 plasmaguns you can fire up to 8 s7 ap2 shots before your nearby units can assault and finish off the targeted enemy unit. However when playing pure DoA be sure to have CC unit nearby your plasma squad to prevent enemy assaulting your shooters. Otherwise you can use plasma HG to deal with enemy shooters. I like using mine vs Broadsides, so they wipe out the squad wihout the need to further assault them and thus enable my VV deal with other units like Crisis suits. Same thing happens with shooting off Long fangs, Devastators etc.

 

Overall, pasma is good supportive weapon, but it requires certain tactics and use. In DoA it's pretty handy. In mech lists plasma is also good, but has lower utility, as you can take assault cannons on baal or razors, as well as autocanons, that work as good vs infantry and armor. However a squad of devs with 2 plasmacannons and 2 mssile launchers is rather good and flexible.

 

I will occasionally assault with them but only if there is little to no risk of them getting killed by power weapons. They are very solid in close combat, even with the plasmas however I keep them out of combat as much as I can. With the squad set up this way they can support my troops without getting my priests into combat where they can get hurt. Further more in CC or out of it I can allocate wounds and make sure my priest stays alive as much as possible. Ether way this squad is very effective and well worth their points, I just wish i could get more on the table.

[d503]

The core of my new-fangled DOA segment is this:

 

Librarian (shield, +1 offensive power)

Command squad, priest, 4x plasma gun

10 man RAS, power fist and 2x melta

10 man RAS, power fist and 2x melta

 

As yet untested in battle. Should be awesome, might be crap.

[Gv0zD]

The core of my new-fangled DOA segment is this:

 

Librarian (shield, +1 offensive power)

Command squad, priest, 4x plasma gun

10 man RAS, power fist and 2x melta

10 man RAS, power fist and 2x melta

 

As yet untested in battle. Should be awesome, might be crap.

When I fielded plasma HG for the first time I had exactly the same concerns. And it proved to be awesome.

[knife&fork]

I think the all plasma JP RAS can have it's place in DOA or reserve heavy lists. Plenty of places in the dex to get meltas and S8 guns anyway.

 

Dual plasma guns will average more wounds against MEQ than meltas while still doing well against transports and having a longer threat range, that means less risky deep strikes and 24" double tap range. No place to hide!

 

After all, the most vulnerable time for an assault squad is usually the turn following a deep strike, makes sense to do a lot of damage on arrival. And the earlier you make your opponent take casualties the more valuable they are to you. If the advantages outweighs the lack of extra d6 within 6", AP1 and not being an assault weapon depends a lot on how the rest of your list looks like.

[Decoy]

As everyone above said. It's largely about having the ability to assault. The B.A. do not do well in almost any ranged sort of environment, and Plasma keeps them at range. It just makes common sense to have assault weapons on the squads designed to kill things in assault. It's essentially what the army is designed for, just as Wolves have vast access and use of Plasma (Got 20+ Guns and 10 Plasma Cannons in my army. :) )

[Bonzi]

I may be showing my inexperience here but don't jump packs give a model the 'relentless' special rule which I thought let you double tap rapid fire weapons and still assualt in 5th ed. Or am I totally smoking crack? I can't be right or everyone would be doing it...maybe I'm mixing up rules with Tau jump packs.

[1Drop]

As everyone above said. It's largely about having the ability to assault. The B.A. do not do well in almost any ranged sort of environment, and Plasma keeps them at range. It just makes common sense to have assault weapons on the squads designed to kill things in assault. It's essentially what the army is designed for, just as Wolves have vast access and use of Plasma (Got 20+ Guns and 10 Plasma Cannons in my army. :lol: )

 

I quite fancy building a SW army for their shooting, the only reason I didn't before now was the dodgy hair do's and all that red hair! Lol, but going on how much of a power army they are in the 5th Ed I'd really like to have a go, I even see the hair as part of it all now giving that they have been likened to Vikings and other northern european tribes.

[Mykra]

I may be showing my inexperience here but don't jump packs give a model the 'relentless' special rule which I thought let you double tap rapid fire weapons and still assualt in 5th ed. Or am I totally smoking crack? I can't be right or everyone would be doing it...maybe I'm mixing up rules with Tau jump packs.

 

Jet Packs do, not jump packs.

 

You had it right at the end ;P

[Taz]

I stick with plasma pistols in my assault squads, usually not more than one per squad, and sometimes if I'm feeling frisky I'll stick them on my tac or dev sergeants. I can keep my special weapon slots open, plus have an easy MEQ kill without costing myself an attack before getting into combat. I haven't played enough with tac squads to speak for actual plasma guns but the pistols can perform fairly admirably, despite the risk.

[knife&fork]

As everyone above said. It's largely about having the ability to assault. The B.A. do not do well in almost any ranged sort of environment, and Plasma keeps them at range. It just makes common sense to have assault weapons on the squads designed to kill things in assault. It's essentially what the army is designed for, just as Wolves have vast access and use of Plasma (Got 20+ Guns and 10 Plasma Cannons in my army. :P )

 

I understand that, but I think this could use some thought.

When you deep strike you are forced to remain at range for one turn, no getting around that. This is usually the most critical turn for an assault squad. Taking plasma instead of meltas means that you can do more damage against infantry and get similar results against transports while allowing to make risky a less risky deep strike since getting within 6" doesn't matter. If your opponent doesn't want to go into CC he might also try to move nearby units out of assault range, forcing you to remain at range for the next turn as well.

I'm not talking about giving up the ability to assault to shoot plasma, although that might actually be beneficial in some cases too. Considering how many people that are worried about shooting before assault anyway I'm surprised to not see more support for this line of thinking.

[Gv0zD]

I understand the utility of plasmaguns in RAS, but I don't think it would make much differnce. Two meltas can destroy a tank. Two plasmas can at maximum kill 4 models. And then you won't be able to assault. 4 plasmas (I'm talking of Honor Guard) can kill at maximum 8 models, while 4 meltas will srill destroy one tank a time or 4 models. So in my opinion, RAS should wield meltas to max rheir effectiveness.

[knife&fork]

So in my opinion, RAS should wield meltas to max rheir effectiveness.

 

Their effectiveness against what? Melta guns are the best at dealing with AV12 and up, no question. But they are not the ideal weapon against everything, far from it.

 

If your list depends on RAS for tank popping, melta is the answer. There's nothing wrong with that but I do believe there can be too much of a good thing. If your list is extremely melta heavy then it's probably lacking in other areas.

[Gv0zD]

I meant effectiveness in general. When you say 'melta-heavy', do you mean HG loaded with meltas, or devs, or tacts? It really matters. If we're talking of DoA, then the only other melta-heavy unit available is HG, and as I stated earlier, they are not that effective. If there are tacts/devs with meltas, then plasmas in RAS should work.

[knife&fork]

I meant effectiveness in general. When you say 'melta-heavy', do you mean HG loaded with meltas, or devs, or tacts? It really matters. If we're talking of DoA, then the only other melta-heavy unit available is HG, and as I stated earlier, they are not that effective. If there are tacts/devs with meltas, then plasmas in RAS should work.

 

Yeah if by DoA we mean it in its purest form, JP only, then you pretty much have to take a lot melta guns in your RAS. If you go beyond that we still have attack bikes, sternguard, speeders and dreads.

[Gv0zD]

I meant effectiveness in general. When you say 'melta-heavy', do you mean HG loaded with meltas, or devs, or tacts? It really matters. If we're talking of DoA, then the only other melta-heavy unit available is HG, and as I stated earlier, they are not that effective. If there are tacts/devs with meltas, then plasmas in RAS should work.

 

Yeah if by DoA we mean it in its purest form, JP only, then you pretty much have to take a lot melta guns in your RAS. If you go beyond that we still have attack bikes, sternguard, speeders and dreads.

Yep. If there are bikes, dreads, sternguards etc, then having a couple of plasmas in jumpy RAS are pretty reasonable. A few shots of plasma, aided by other units' fire will provide the necessary support for 'just landed' squads