Libby & Sternguard vs Terminator Chappy & Assault termies

[Liam101]

Hi all,

 

Basically, I'm attending a tournament this Saturday (7th May) and I noticed that I have enough points spare to have either a Terminator Chaplain to run with a 5man Assault Terminator squad (3 hammers, 2 claws in a LRC) or keep my standard Librarian with my 9man Sternguard squad, and have 30pts to spare.

 

I realise the amazing tactical flexibility that a Librarian with Gate and Null Zone brings (sadly I often have horrendous deepstrike rolls), but I also realise that a Chaplain is only particularly useful if the squad he is attached to gets the charge (which, by rights they should), and then the already hard hitting Terminator squad hits that much harder.

 

So my question is, should I keep the Librarian as my HQ or drop him for the day and use a Chaplain? And if I were to stick with the Librarian, what should i do with the spare 30pts I'll have left over? I have considered a Terminator Librarian but he won't directly increase their killing potential. I have no experience with a Librarian in an assault squad however so I don't know the benefits of having one...

 

If it helps at all, I KNOW that I'll be up against at least one Guard player, and at least one BA player, and an assortment of other MEQ armies.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Liam

[DarkGuard]

Could you give us the rest of your list? This would really help with more definitive advice if we could see your weaknesses etc.

 

However, as for Assault Terminators vs Sternguard, my first tournament at Warhammer World, a regional called Triple Crown, between all the stores in the county, had me placed 6th out of 40 Warhammer 40k players. Didn't use TH/SS Terminators, I used a Sternguard squad. 9 men with a lightning claw, two heavy flamers, and Pedro in a Rhino. Since then, I've preferred a 9 man Sternguard squad with power fist, 2 heavy flamers, 3/4 combi-meltas and a Libby in a Rhino with dozer blade, and this has since dropped to 7/8 men, with a power fist, heavy flamer and 3 combi-meltas in a Rhino with dozer blade, all for points reasons, as IMO 9 Sternguard is too pointy and start to become a points sink. 7/8 is the sweet spot I think.

 

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Sternguard can be as competitive as any other choice, even if the internet says that Hammernators in a Land Raider is the best thing since sliced bread. Remember, Sternguard have amazing flexibility, and their ride only costs 35pts as opposed to 250pts. If I were to keep the Sternguard, I'd get them a Rhino with those left over points (you may need to drop something else somewhere), especially as it seems you're having bad luck with Gate. Then either keep Gate on the Libby, or use Avenger, which is an amazing shooting power.

 

If going for the Terminators, you may be advised to go all TH/SS Terminators. I wouldn't give them the Chaplain though, as the Libby in power armour can still do a job. Firstly, he has a psychic hood, which is very handy in this psyker orientated game today. Second up, he has Null Zone, which is a fantastic power and will really help those Terminators smash through other units. You don't need to get the Libby out when the Terminators get out, and if you're using Null Zone you don't want to, as you get a bigger range with it in a Land Raider.

 

As for which one to take, against Blood Angels the Terminators may do you better, as although Sternguard have AP3 rounds, these will diminish significantly if your opponent is using Sang Priests. Against Imperial Guard, a big target like a Land Raider will probably die quickly, and a Sternguard squad in Rhino, or even Gated should be able to get there. And once there, you don't need Assault Terminators to take out their basic infantry, Tactical squads, even Scout squads will suffice.

 

In the end, it will come down to your preferences, and what you really want to take. Just remember that despite what the internet says, you don't need to take TH/SS Terminators to be competitive :lol:.

[Liam101]

I have both the Sternguard and Terminators in regardless, it's just the choice of HQ (and his placement) is the main query. Sorry for the lack of clarity there.

 

Heres the list as it stands:

 

HQ

Librarian 100pts

 

Troops (3)

10 man Tactical squad w/ Missile Launcher, Meltagun. Sergeant w/ Powerfist, Combi-flamer. Rhino dedicated transport = 245pts

 

10 man Tactical squad (As above) = 245pts

 

5 man Scout squad w/ 3x Sniper rifles, Missile Launcher, Sergeant Telion = 135pts

 

Elites (2)

9 man Sternguard squad w/ 4x combi-melta. Rhino w/ extra armour dedicated transport = 295

 

5 man Terminator Assault squad w/ 2x Lightning Claws & 3 TH/SS. Land Raider Crusader w/ EA & Multi-melta = 475pts

 

Fast Attack (2)

Land Speeder w/ Multi-melta, Heavy Flamer = 70pts

 

Land Speeder (as above) = 70pts

 

Heavy Support (3)

Vindicator = 115

 

Vindicator = 115

 

Predator w/ Autocannon turret, Lascannon sponsons = 120 pts

 

TOTAL: 1970

[DarkGuard]

I'd definitely go with the Libby in that list, no reason to not go for him. As for the last 30pts, if you take the extra armour off the Sternguard's Rhino that you don't really need then that's 45pts to spend. Spend 25pts of that on a power fist for the Sternguard, they need it more than the Tactical squads. With the last 20pts you can either go around adding dozer blades to units like your Vindicators and your Rhinos, or add a couple of heavy flamers to the Sternguard, whatever you prefer.

 

Otherwise it looks solid, although I do worry about your lack of long-range anti-tank. The only thing to write home about is the one combi-pred. I'd perhaps consider dropping something like a Vindicator to add another combi-pred, you don't want to let your opponent get his vehicles to midfield and your backfield if you can help it.

[Liam101]

I thought that I needed more long range too... Even if it is just to supress the enemy for a turn by shaking them.

 

I'm trying very hard to fit a rifleman into the list but I really do like the double vindicators... They draw a massive amount of firepower giving my guys time to get into position etc, however to be fairly honest they have never actually caused the massive damage I had hoped for, I'm obviously using them wrong.

 

I could get rid of the MM/HF speeders as I have a fair bit of melta, but I'm not entirely sure as fast melta is a win (again, it hasn't been a major win for me but I'm sure they will shine someday).

 

What do you think?

 

P.S I thought the Librarian with the Sternguard was the right way to go it was just an interesting thought about the Terminator Chaplain.

[Ming]

Not to toot my own horn, but go see my blog for lists and results...and ideas.

 

You have in your list alot of good stuff. My initial tweeks would be along the lines of DarkGuard's suggestions. The biggest thing your librarian can provide is null zone, which of course requires him to be alive. It means if he travels in the landraider, he needs to stay inside till forced to get out. On the other hand, if he gets in with the sternguard, he needs to stay in the rhino.

 

Some things to try:

 

1. Drop a sternguard model, and use the points with some spare change to get another terminator.

 

2. Absolute must for every squad to have a PW or PF, or at least get the PF to the sternguard. In a world of ICs, MCs, and terminator equivalents or invulnerable saves, you need to be able to get some wounds back on the enemy.

 

3. Drop the EA, and after all upgrades, put a HKM on every rhino instead. The extra 4 dice or so can be a game changer - use the HKMs turn 1 or ASAP. Clearly use them or lose them.

 

4. In the near future, consider getting the tac squads to have lascannons rather than MLs. More AP2, high S is important. Lascannons would be more valuable than one-shot HKMs.

 

5. If you like EA, put it on the vindicators instead, so they can keep moving around. The longer they drive around, the better.

 

6. Most games you won't want to drive thru terrain, so dozerblades are not too important, compared to having more firepower.

 

7. When in doubt, get a storm shield on the librarian.

 

See ShinyRhino's blog for recent use of a terminator chaplain in a similar list at 2000 pts. They can be awesome. On the other hand, see my latest post on a game vs SWs - who used a list analogous to yours. The vindicators survived, but he squandered other assets to lose the game.

[DarkGuard]

I'm trying very hard to fit a rifleman into the list but I really do like the double vindicators... They draw a massive amount of firepower giving my guys time to get into position etc, however to be fairly honest they have never actually caused the massive damage I had hoped for, I'm obviously using them wrong.

 

I could get rid of the MM/HF speeders as I have a fair bit of melta, but I'm not entirely sure as fast melta is a win (again, it hasn't been a major win for me but I'm sure they will shine someday).

 

Yes to Rifleman, no to taking out MM/HF Speeders. Which means yes to loosing a Vindicator. I used to run double Vindicators for a while, but frankly it got boring. The thing you've got to remember is that Vindicators aren't offensive units, they're defensive units. If they kill something, great. If they don't, don't worry about it. They are there to provide a fire magnet. Now obviously two Vindicators can hold fire for longer, but not really as by turn 3 other units are becoming more dangerous. You run two Vindicators (or three) if you want to shoot them. You run one Vindicator as a bullet magnet.

 

My 1750pts list now runs only one Vindicator, it works fine. Sure it won't get many shots off, and those shots it does get off may not work. But it draws firepower. My opponent yesterday kept shooting the Vindicator with his infernus pistols and Storm Raven. I didn't really mind, and he soon learnt that the rest of my army can do just fine without the Vindicator (which still survived the game). So as a reliable killer, it's not good. As a fire magnet, it's perfect, you've been using it well. But as you've concluded they don't live up to their reputation at damage dealing, so I think its safe to say to trade that Vindicator out for a Rifleman Dread if you'd like. But keep the MM/HF Speeders, you need that cheap, fast melta.

 

And to respond to a couple of Ming's points (nothing personal), but I disagree with the comments about the hunter-killers and dozer blades. Hunter killers are one shot weapons that cost points and only hit on 3s. Plus, they take away from your primary job of transporting units. You either halt moving to fire the hunter-killer, in which point the transport isn't really doing its job, or you don't use it because you're moving and wasting points.

 

Dozer blades are also good, especially for elite units and some of the heavier guns like Vindicators. Yes you ideally don't want to move through cover. But you don't always get your way. There will be times when your elite counter-assault unit will have to go through cover to help out your beleaguered squad, and you can bet all the money that that's when you'll roll a 1 for dangerous terrain. 5pts for a dozer as an after thought and that problem doesn't happen. Yesterday, in a slight variation of this example, I moved my Honour Guard's Rhino into a ruin, where thanks to the position of the walls I'd get cover saves from the majority of my opponent's shooting, thus keeping my Honour Guard save from enemy fire. As they were in the middle of my force, they could react to anything. When I moved it in, I rolled a 1, thankfully, the dozer blade saved me.

 

The other thing are Vindicators. Preferably I prefer siege shield if I have the points to eliminate all chances of rolling a 1, but dozer blades do if you're strapped for points. Now Vindicators, along with Dreadnoughts and TFCs have the brilliant ability to deploy or move into a building and sit by a window. Your opponent can only see the gun, and so you get a cover save, but your gun can see your opponent, and so you don't give a cover save. Very handy, and dozer blades pivotal to ensure you don't strand yourself on the wrong side of terrain.

 

Also, I'd only upgrade missile launchers to lascannons if you had nothing else to put points into. Sure they have a better strength and AP, but that AP only really matters against Terminators, and the strength hardly matters. You don't insta-kill T5 with it, and you kill tanks a bit easier. However, missiles are best at AV10-12, which is what lascannons are best at. Of course it's handy to be able to be better at AV13-14, but that's what you use melta for. Missile launchers also have added flexibility with the frag templates, and are free, so I'd keep them.

 

I also think that power fists are not that great on Tactical squads. They are shooting units, and you should try and keep the cost down. I think that spending over 230pts repeatedly on Tactical squads is a bit excessive (this includes the Rhino and its upgrades). Against the strong units in the combat that power fist won't do much to change the result, against the weak units it won't do much to change the result. In the medium units, and things like MCs and Dreads it can help, but then it's better to configure your ranged weapons to deal with them. The power fist's role is too niche and it's points cost too high. If it were 5pts cheaper I may consider it, if it had the old rules of +1A with a bolt pistol I'd definitely consider it. However, at the moment it's overpointed for Tactical squads and Dev squad. Dedicated Assault squads and Veteran squads, even shooty ones, do benefit from them though to be able to kill and deal with everything, or for insurance.

 

But those are my views, notably different from Ming's, and that's good, because it adds more to the debate and makes people better because of it :lol:.

[Liam101]

Right, I think that I will be putting a powerfist onto the Sternguard in that case.

 

I may well leave the Powerfists on the Tacticals to ensure, as Ming rightly said, I can take some chunks out of MCs and whatnot, instead of losing a Tactical squad without retaliation.

 

I think the Rifleman dread idea might have to stick as well, without any personal experience the consensus on the boards is that they are a tremendously good unit, and with 4 Twin-linked str 7 shots I can see exactly why. I just really wanted the double Vindicators to work :/

 

As a thought for where the Librarian should go, I would have him with the Sternguard and hopefully Gate to wherever Null Zone 'may' make a difference (obviously I could only Gate and not Null Zone in the same turn). Terminators don't need to be as flexible in my opinion as they are more of a battering ram that will get results regardless of what goes down.

 

Whilst we are at it, does anybody know if I would be able to Gate out of CC? I've read numerous times yes, but I can't see how that is balanced.

 

@ Ming, Where might I find your blog? Tried looking but I'm slightly lacking on forums in general.

 

*Edit* I've found the blog, actually... But I'm not entirely sure on how I found it lol

 

Thanks for the replies guys

[DarkGuard]

I think the Rifleman dread idea might have to stick as well, without any personal experience the consensus on the boards is that they are a tremendously good unit, and with 4 Twin-linked str 7 shots I can see exactly why. I just really wanted the double Vindicators to work :/

 

*sigh*, don't we all Liam101. They work, just not in way one would imagine.

 

As for the Libby, I'd personally not use Gate to get to a position to use Null Zone, you want to always be able to use Null Zone, it's your primary power, while Gate is your secondary. If you do this your opponent has the ability to shoot your unit before Null Zone comes off. As Ming said you want your Libby to stay in a vehicle. As your Terminators should be in the middle of the enemy's lines. However, Gate is believed to get you out of combat because it's a psychic power, not movement, or something like that. I've never used it like that. However, should it be allowed in the tournament it could be very useful.

[Mysticaria]

I think the Rifleman dread idea might have to stick as well, without any personal experience the consensus on the boards is that they are a tremendously good unit, and with 4 Twin-linked str 7 shots I can see exactly why. I just really wanted the double Vindicators to work :/

 

*sigh*, don't we all Liam101. They work, just not in way one would imagine.

Blasphemy... double vindicators are a rock! Absolute awesome... but I don't go spending points on seige shields and such. To me, the double vindicator is 230 points of super-powered fire magnet, mixed up with a great big Terminator no crossing sign (you are taking null zone right?), with a side of land raider and monolith can opener (S10 ordnance shooting at a large vehicle = yumy). Where else can you get that for less than the cost of one tactical squad?

 

I like Riflemen dreads too... my current army actually has 2x Riflemen and 2x Vindicators... and would hate to have to choose between the two. But seriously, the strength of vindicator is that it is scary, cantake on all targets, and it is cheap. If you can make the most use out of that combination, then you are using them right.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

Eh, what with cover and people blocking my Null Zone Vindicator's have fallen right down in my army list priority, now I rely on Typhoons and it seems Honour Guard to be the primary damage dealers. And dozer blades and siege shields are a good investment if you want to protect the tank, and cost 10-20pts more if fielding in doubles.

 

I used to take double Vindicators, but while a Tactical squad may not be as powerful, they don't miss half the time, don't get shaken half the time, and can also score, something a Vindicator cannot do. Two Vindicators in a mid-range army seems like a bit much due to "danger close", although I do pull off some audacious shots from time to time. In a long-range army they'll do better as you don't have midfield cluttered with your own troops, so used alongside las/plas spam then sure, but alongside MM Tactical squads, sometimes it's not worth the risk.

 

That being said, I'm sure that at 2000pts it'll find a way back in. Unfortunately for it, we don't play 2000pts many times, but it's a possibility. I like Vindicators, I suppose I'm just a little bored of them now. Dakka Preds are something I'd like to try out, and they're cheaper and more reliable. The trouble with Vindicators is that I started to rely on it as my counter for things like Terminators and big scary squads. That's bad, Vindicators should never be relied on to do more than soak up firepower and possibly die, oh and to always have a 3 or 5 rolled against them on the pen and glancing hit tables respectively. One for a fire magnet I feel is quite enough, and at the moment at 1750pts I'd much rather have that extra scoring unit, while at 1500pts I'd rather have those Typhoons.

[Liam101]

@Myst,

 

I don't suppose I could see your list could I? Couldn't find it in the post list, that might just be me being a tool though.

 

And the double Vindicators certainly soak up a lot of damage, its just that being a str 10 pieplate, I'd like them to actually destroy something once and a while :)

 

 

On the topic of Typhoons, don't they die horrendously quickly? Again I've never used them but with the MM/HF speeders I just bolt down the field for a coversave, let rip with the MM and then expect it to die, whilst I'd rather Typhoons survive longer...

 

Thanks for answering the stream of questions guys, I'm sure theres other people out there with similar queries to mine.

[DarkGuard]

On the topic of Typhoons, don't they die horrendously quickly? Again I've never used them but with the MM/HF speeders I just bolt down the field for a coversave, let rip with the MM and then expect it to die, whilst I'd rather Typhoons survive longer...

 

Depends how you use them, how clever your opponent is/how much your opponent hates them. I've had games where they've survived without a scratch. And I've had games when they've lost their missile launchers or died (strangely they always have a weapon destroyed result rolled up first). But in most games, they've near enough caused damage before being shot at. I've seen whole power armoured units die to an accurate frag missile flurry, and it's very satisfying.

 

The thing about them is that in the right list, sitting in backfield, they're not a priority target. If you're using MM/HF Speeders, Vindicators, squads in Rhinos and Razorbacks, your opponent isn't going to use his precious anti-tank on your unit of Speeders. And if he does he's punished for it. If he doesn't he's punished for it. You've got to go into the mindset where if they're being shot at, something else isn't, and that something else had better be able to do something useful.

 

One my favourite units in the Codex now, and love using them, well worth trying out when you get the chance. Cheap, fast, and flexible, they are a fantastic unit in the Marine Codex.

[Mysticaria]

@Myst,

 

I don't suppose I could see your list could I? Couldn't find it in the post list, that might just be me being a tool though.

 

And the double Vindicators certainly soak up a lot of damage, its just that being a str 10 pieplate, I'd like them to actually destroy something once and a while :huh:

 

 

On the topic of Typhoons, don't they die horrendously quickly? Again I've never used them but with the MM/HF speeders I just bolt down the field for a coversave, let rip with the MM and then expect it to die, whilst I'd rather Typhoons survive longer...

 

Thanks for answering the stream of questions guys, I'm sure theres other people out there with similar queries to mine.

My current army has slipped to page two already. Here you go: Myst's army for the next tournament. I'm trying something a little new here by running with Lysander for a little deathstar action, but in 1750 that would be a librarian. As you can see... 2x vindicators, 2x rifleman, 2x typhoons, and one big giant terminator deathstar with 2x cml.. that's a fair amount of firepower and should be enough to keep the attention off the scoring tactical squads. If you want to take a look, here is an article I'm working on about tactical terminators so that's why they are the core of the army: Tactical Terminators.

 

I wanted to chime in on Typhoons also. They really aren't that vulnerable. They operate at long range, and have good mobility, so they really can position themselves where they can fire on a juicy target but only face return fire from maybe 1 or 2 enemy units. And... Darkguard is right on with his assessment. If you pack enough really scary stuff into an army then the typhoons don't take as much fire.

 

-Myst

[Liam101]

Just to let you guys know, I came 3rd out of 16 in the tournament. Successful first tournament I dare say, Librarian (after deepstriking into impassable terrain one turn) did well, the two Vindicators duked it out with two leman-russ demolishers (not preferred target I have to say) and won, Sternguard dealt a horrific amount of damage to everything they turned their guns on, Terminators didn't actually do too well however... Another time.

 

Anyway, thanks for the advice! Got another tournament early in July so I might give this list another go.

[DarkGuard]

Glad to hear that, 3rd is a fantastic achievement, especially as it seems your new to tournaments. I hope that you've learnt a great deal not only about your various units but also about how you play, should be an immense help to you when the next tournament comes around. Again, congrats, and hope you enjoyed it.

[Mysticaria]

Hurray for Vindicators!! Congrats on the tournament results. Hopefully you've got a better feeling now for what units you really like, and especially how well they work together.

 

Did you end up taking a Rifleman?

Did you end up taking Typhoons?

What was your final list?

 

-Myst

[Liam101]

Well, I have to say there was a fair amount of luck on my part, but thats part of the game right? :tu:

 

The list is as above, plus powerfist on the sternguard (which came in handy!), dropping the ea on the Rhino, and two combi-flamers on the Sternguard.

 

I would've liked to try both the Rifleman and the Typhoons but conversion time was low and fitting everything into the list was quite a challenge, I do have a tournament early in July where I plan to mix the list up slightly to see what things are capable of.

 

Something that I was thankful for, and that I found bizzare, is that the tournament organiser allowed me to choose psychic powers before each game, adding maxiumum flexibility to my Librarian (wherever he was). Isn't this tailoring slightly though?

 

And I took the advice on the Librarian, during the annihilation game I put my libby in the crusader with force dome to basically deny two killpoints straight off the bat (the opponents army was disjointed, to say the least) and I ended up winning that game 6 - 2 with the loss of two Rhinos.

 

I did feel that I was lacking the first turn barrage that I seemed to be receiving in most of the games, lucky coversaves helped negate the losses though and allowed me to bring the Vindicators to bear.

 

Apologies for the wall of text...

[DarkGuard]

I'm not sure Force Dome effects the transport he's in, it's just an invulnerable save for him and the unit he's in.... Anyway, if they let you pick Libby powers don't feel bad about tailoring, enjoy the moment because it won't happen again.

 

As for the list, glad the Sternguard worked well, I do like Sternguard. I would try and get the Rifleman in if you can for the next one, a solid unit, and conversion work isn't too bad, unless you're magnetizing as well. Finally got them magnetized yesterday, was great fun with nearly losing one magnet and turning a couple the wrong way. But it's more fun converting that way.