What are some ideas for my new Sargent's equipment

[Brother Pablo]

I am in the process of putting together a new tac squad and I am at a road block right now. After doing a few searches and finding nothing, I decided to ask and see what people think. I already have two tac squads equipped as below now:

 

1 tac squad

Flamer

Missle Launcher

Sargent (chainsword and Bolt Pistol)

-An AOBR unit essentially

 

1 tac squad

Melta

Multi Melta

Sargent (chainsword and B.P.)

 

I was planning on my new tac squad to be a plasma squad which I was planning on avoiding contact with the enemy for the most part. My original thought was to get a sargent with a Power Fist and B.P. and switch that one out with either of the existing sargents, and have that squad be lead when possible. Does anyone have any better ideas for equipping a tac squad sargent that is possibly going to be getting into combat before his tactical bretheren? Should I scrap the idea and have him hang back and equip. him with a bolter?

[MagicMan]

Combi-Weapons are gold.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Power fist and a combi-weapon.

[Ethrion]

I would say have options for all weapon loadouts - all heavy and special weapon options as well as one of each type of weapon available to the sergeant. You'll find that eventually you will use every type. Pinning is a great way of having one model but multiple weapons (prevents you needing loads of the same sgt!)

[asfargone]

powerfist and combi, agreed. are plaz cannon good?

[The Normish]

I like to stick with a good old bolter for my tactical sergeants, and a bolt pistol and power fist for my assault sergeant.

[Mysticaria]

Plasma pattern tactical squad: Multimelta, plasmagun, combiplasma... powerfist is optional but expensive.

 

-Myst

[Raern]

Some random notes I picked up when trying to figure this out myself...

-You rarely get more than one good shot with special weapons per game unless you're winning, so combi-weapons are like having a second special weapon, which is to say they're great.

-If you have a powerfist you can't get an extra attack, so you usually want a bolter to rapidfire more than you want a bolt pistol to ping at something before declaring an assault.

-Combi-plasma is very risky to combine with a power weapon or fist, you don't want an overheat to fry your hidden fist right before that Tervigon comes knocking. There's bad luck, and then there's setting yourself up for game-changing catastrophic luck.

-You can't really assume your tactical squad won't end up in assault sooner or later, if that's your enemy's goal, you'd have to be dominating the game to prevent it completely. So you either buy a fist for defense, or spend the points elsewhere trying to dominate the game vs assault rush units.

[DarkGuard]

I'm just going to reply to different people's post and I think we'll see a pattern to my thinking on Tactical squad Sergeants.

 

Combi-Weapons are gold.

 

That they are. My preference is to match the combi with the special to get an increase in damage output for that one, crucial turn.

 

Power fist and a combi-weapon.

 

They used to be gold, but unfortunately are too expensive. Two power fist attacks at WS4 are not good, especially when you're paying 25pts for this insurance option. You'll hit once and then maybe do a wound, I always roll 1s for that one hit of mine.

 

Plasma pattern tactical squad: Multimelta, plasmagun, combiplasma... powerfist is optional but expensive.

 

I've been using this in the last couple of games, and what I want to know is, when will my plasma guns stop getting a hit and miss each? I expect 6 hits out of 8 shots, not 4! <_<.

 

Anyway, a solid choice, and I think the special patter squads are the best. All sport a multi-melta for midfield (except perhaps melta pattern where a plasma cannon or missile launcher may be better for variety). My favourite has been the flamer pattern squad, has served me well, but I'm trying the plasma pattern out for a bit so that I've got a couple of squads that can handle enemy elites and MCs. And four plasma shots from a Tactical squad is nice .

 

You can't really assume your tactical squad won't end up in assault sooner or later, if that's your enemy's goal, you'd have to be dominating the game to prevent it completely. So you either buy a fist for defense, or spend the points elsewhere trying to dominate the game vs assault rush units.

 

True, your Tactical squad will probably end up in assault, after the Rhino's been popped of course. And you've bought your shiny new power fist for a premium of 25pts. But then what? Against elite assault units like Assault Terminators, Howling Banshees, Incubi, Honour Guard, Death Company etc, you're squad is going to get beaten before it swings that fist, and if that fist does swing, chances are it won't do much thanks to a high invulnerable save. Having the power fist will do little to change combat.

But how about those weakling Troop choices, like Fire Warriors and Guardsmen? Against these guys, you don't need the power fist, as they're so weak in combat with not very good saves or low WS that they will lose enough guys in proportion to the guys you lose that you don't need a power fist to help.

 

But what about your fellow Space Marines in combat? And Dreadnoughts. Well in my experience I've never had luck wrecking Dreadnought's in combat with a power fist. 2 attacks, 4 to hit and 4 to glance? Not good odds IMO, a meltagun will be better. And against Marines, it's better to do the other things, fall back. That's our insurance, right there. Combat Tactics lets us fall back in the shooting phase to deny the charge, or in the assault phase if our opponent was smart enough not to shoot. I found it quite amusing to run away from the Sanguinor, only to then shoot the Death Company behind him with plasma fire, and jump a Dreadnought onto the Sanguinor to keep him occupied. Tactical Marines are shooty, and most of the time you want to fall back. And you don't need to spend those points on something to dominate the game, you just need to fall back, or hold the enemy long enough for another unit to help out, like your Command squad or Sternguard.

 

I'm not saying that power fists are bad, far from it, but they are overpriced in Tactical squads, and don't belong there.

 

 

In the end, Ethrion's suggestion is best, have multiple weapon load outs. At the moment I have at least four Tactical squad Sergeants, with two combi-flamers, two combi-plasmas, and a power fist/combi-melta guy. All have done well and were many different things beforehand (such as plain boltgun, boltgun/power fist, power weapon/bolt pistol etc). Just experiment and see what you like. For inspiration on loadouts, don't hesitate to check the C:SM 101 in my sig.

[Project.2501]

Power sword

Bolt pistol

Melta-bombs

 

Add combi-weapon of choice if you want (i don't), but that is (my) staple.

 

 

Incidently, i run my tac squads with flamer/lascannon, in a rhino.

[DarkGuard]

If you're running a power weapon and meltabombs why don't you pay the extra 5pts for the power fist? More useful, especially if you use the combi-weapon as you then lose your bolt pistol, and therefore extra attack in combat. I'm sorry to say it, but on a Tactical Sergeant I find power weapon/MB to be less useful than a power fist, and quite frankly 20-60pts better spent elsewhere (considering this is your staple).

 

Flamer/lascannon is a solid choice. I like it because you can easily combat squad that in multi-objective games, leaving the lascannon behind and using the boltguns and flamer up close. It's the big weakness of my own preferred Tactical squad layout, a MM sitting at home doesn't achieve much to influence the fight, resulting in me having to buy a small 3d objective sitter.

[Project.2501]

If you're running a power weapon and meltabombs why don't you pay the extra 5pts for the power fist? More useful, especially if you use the combi-weapon as you then lose your bolt pistol, and therefore extra attack in combat. I'm sorry to say it, but on a Tactical Sergeant I find power weapon/MB to be less useful than a power fist, and quite frankly 20-60pts better spent elsewhere (considering this is your staple).

 

i find 3 (4 if i charge) pwr wpn attacks at initiative more useful for me. The meltabombs auto-hit in death-or-glory attempts and keeps them from happenning almost all together, while still being usefull against walkers. For 5pts less than a power fist i can still fullfill both roles (deterrence and output).

 

The pwr fist seems to always fail to either hit (anything) or pen vehicles. YMMV.

 

It may help to explain that i also run Kantor, and do not have (nor miss) combat tactics, as well as a 5man assault squad with the sergeant equipped with a pwr fist/storm shield/meltabombs as a CC quick reaction force.

 

Flamer/lascannon is a solid choice. I like it because you can easily combat squad that in multi-objective games, leaving the lascannon behind and using the boltguns and flamer up close. It's the big weakness of my own preferred Tactical squad layout, a MM sitting at home doesn't achieve much to influence the fight, resulting in me having to buy a small 3d objective sitter.

 

I've never liked/used MultiMeltas in tac squads (though i do understand their appeal/capabilities), and used to run missile launchers instead of my lascannons, but they too seem to either never hit or never penetrate... anything. Since I've switched to lascannons i now more regularly destroy whatever i hit (when i hit) thus mitigating abaout half the problem.

 

I too enjoy being able to decide if i can/should combat squad them and still have serious threats in both squads, the lascannon popping a transport, the sgt and flamer rushing up to wipe out the contents even if they're assault termies (or just tactical ones), as most people run them with SS/TH I will be flaming/shooting them then assaulting them with at least 4 attacks that they have to hope their SSs can save before they even swing. A 5 man tac squad that can put that much damage/pressure on a 200+ pt terminator squad is and has been golden for me. Not to mention any other type of troop/squad out there.

 

I'll also do the same with the squad non-combat-squaded.

 

Again, all this is just my experience, mission dependant, YMMV, and so my your dice.

[DarkGuard]

All good points, but I'm still not sold on the meltabombs particularly. You say you use them against walkers, but remember that's only one attack that hits on a 6. Now when you hit there's a good chance that you'll penetrate, but with no AP1 you've only got 1/3 chance of killing it with that one hit, although a immobilize result is very handy for the next turn. Quite frankly the power fist is better as you get more attacks that need 4s to hit, but if you don't run into many walkers or roll 6s a lot I suppose it can work well.

[Project.2501]

In the event of walkers, (i will have hopefully popped them or their transport before they can assault) i need a 6 either way. The meltabombs are for deterrence and a chance, especially with ironclads/furiousos running about. There's also my assault squad (described previously) to jump into the fray.

 

Also, against T3 the pwr wpn/bolt pistol really starts to shine.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Also, against T3 the pwr wpn/bolt pistol really starts to shine.

 

This is true -- to a point. Tactical Squads don't normally assault to push enemies off objectives. Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and massed shooting do that for us. Which means that most of the stuff that you'll be fighting that's T3 is the sort of thing that Tac Marines don't want to be fighting anyway, like Wyches or Howling Banshees.

[DarkGuard]

In the event of walkers, (i will have hopefully popped them or their transport before they can assault) i need a 6 either way. The meltabombs are for deterrence and a chance, especially with ironclads/furiousos running about. There's also my assault squad (described previously) to jump into the fray.

 

I'm sorry, but you need a 6 either way? You can't be referring to the power fist here, which hits on a 4 and glances on a 4, with a 5 up being a pen. I'd say those are better odds against a walker than a meltabomb which needs a 6. The power fist doesn't and carries more attacks. I understand you have the Assault squad, but if your opponent doesn't target your 5 man assault squad to neutralise that power fist his Dread deserves to be wrecked.

 

As for Ironclads and Furiousos, Again, you need a 6 to hit either, but Furiousos can potentially take your entire unit apart with blood talons. That small Assault squad will be taken out by blood talons before they can attack, and again the meltabombs aren't a massive worry for a Dread as a 6 is required to hit.

 

I can follow your reasoning about meltabombs being a deterrence from tank shock. I cannot follow it in regards to Dreads, as it isn't as massive a deterrence as a power fist. And like said earlier, when you start running big point upgrades as deterrence, you might as well save the points and get something that is a threat to the thing you are trying to deter. Scared of Dreadnoughts? Drop those two power fists on your Tacticals and get a MM AB, or meltaguns and a combi-meltas on those squads. I find I prefer using my Tacticals outside of combat, and when I took those power fists off I didn't notice a massive difference in performance. By I had already noted that power fists were better than power weapons in my experience, make of that what you will.

[MagicMan]

Ive been tempted to put a powerfist on a Sergeant recently, for nob splatting, but you're making it sound like a bad idea.

[Project.2501]

In the event of walkers, (i will have hopefully popped them or their transport before they can assault) i need a 6 either way. The meltabombs are for deterrence and a chance, especially with ironclads/furiousos running about. There's also my assault squad (described previously) to jump into the fray.

 

I'm sorry, but you need a 6 either way? You can't be referring to the power fist here, which hits on a 4 and glances on a 4, with a 5 up being a pen. I'd say those are better odds against a walker than a meltabomb which needs a 6. The power fist doesn't and carries more attacks. I understand you have the Assault squad, but if your opponent doesn't target your 5 man assault squad to neutralise that power fist his Dread deserves to be wrecked.

 

I niether advocate actively seeking out CC with dreadnoughts to begin with (hence my point about having hopefully popped them/their transports to begin with), nor do i do this myself. Also, as i have appearently not explained myself properly, my assault squad not only hangs back (usually) as a counter-charge unit, not an out-n-out vanguard unit, but also has a SS/pwr fist/MB Sgt.. Please allow me to reitterate, that the meltabombs (on my tac Sgts.) are for a chance at destroying a dread, they may not be a chance you like, but they're a chance that has worked for me and that i do like. I also have my own dread and aforementioned assault squad that can join the fray hopefully by the next turn at the latest and wreck whatever's hurting my squad.

 

As for Ironclads and Furiousos, Again, you need a 6 to hit either, but Furiousos can potentially take your entire unit apart with blood talons. That small Assault squad will be taken out by blood talons before they can attack, and again the meltabombs aren't a massive worry for a Dread as a 6 is required to hit.

 

A furiouso/DC dread with talons will take out your powerfist Sgt. before he can even swing. Complete waste of points. Meltabombs are a massive worry to all dreadnoughts because if they hit, they much more reliably destroy the dread outright. Should my assault squad make it to the fray i now have a choice of either a melta-bomb attack and a couple of powerfist attacks, or 2 melta-bomb attacks, one of which has a SS backing it up (in addition to squad members).

 

I can follow your reasoning about meltabombs being a deterrence from tank shock. I cannot follow it in regards to Dreads, as it isn't as massive a deterrence as a power fist. And like said earlier, when you start running big point upgrades as deterrence, you might as well save the points and get something that is a threat to the thing you are trying to deter. Scared of Dreadnoughts? Drop those two power fists on your Tacticals and get a MM AB, or meltaguns and a combi-meltas on those squads. I find I prefer using my Tacticals outside of combat, and when I took those power fists off I didn't notice a massive difference in performance. By I had already noted that power fists were better than power weapons in my experience, make of that what you will.

 

 

What are these big point upgrades i'm wasting points on you're speaking of? And where are these fists I'm to be dropping from my tactical squads comming from? How is a melta-bomb (or multiples of) not a threat against a dread? When did i ever advocate assaulting dreads? Why would you start your posts in this thread by saying you don't even bother equipping pwr fists anymore, switch to advocating their use, and then back to their being unnecessary?

 

I'm a bit confused, did the YMMV, as well as your dice, along with most of what I've posted not show up in this thread even though it was (mostly) all quoted and replied to?

[DarkGuard]

I'm just simply confused by your loadouts to be honest. I'm not having a go, it's just that you've said a few things which tactically don't make much sense, such as relying on meltabombs for Dread deterrence. If they work for you that's great, keep doing it. And I did see YMMV, but regardless tactical debate beyond stating YMMV is always good for other people. You've recently outlined more of the way that you use your squads and how they work against these units, which you hadn't said until after I had questioned your unit's loadouts. Nothing personal, but I was simply curious.

 

As for advocating power fists and saying I don't bother, it's weird isn't it. I like power fists, I think they are awesome, I absolutely love the idea of them. Hidden power fists in particular are nasty and problematic, and I don't have a problem if other people want to use them. However, as much as I like them, I recognise that often the point are better spent elsewhere. They do have some uses, such as against fellow Tactical squads, Dev squads etc, as well as the last wounds of Carnifexes, shooty Nid Warriors and Dreads. But often, I find these points to be better spent elsewhere, hopefully my squads are staying in their transport, or will be able to full back from potential assaulters. Doesn't always work, but I rarely feel the need to have had a power fist. So rather, it's the other view, I like power fists, and people can take them, but I don't want them going into the battle thinking they are an awesome bit of kit at a reasonable price, and will give the view that while they are good, they are not worth their points cost, which can be better spent elsewhere.

 

I know a Furiouso Dread with blood talons will take out your squad before the fist swings, and Ironclad won't though. Again, 6 followed by an easy dice roll, or 4s followed by a slightly harder dice roll, I know which one I prefer.

 

Also, the last paragraph was less directed at you, but rather a generic one. In fact referencing my old list where both of my Tactical squads used to have a power fist. They replaced their power fists with combi-weapons, and thanks to some points left over I know have two MM/HF Speeders, a fantastic buy over my old MM ABs. I'm not a fan of the power weapon/MB combo, and would rather upgrade that to a power fist, so that also influenced my thinking somewhat. But the fact that I mentioned power fists has nothing to do with your specific list, but rather all lists in general. Apologies, I should have made that clearer.

 

@MagicMan: adding power fists aren't a bad idea due to damage, but due to points. Often if you total up the amount of points an army might spend on power fists on Tactical squads (normally between 50-75) those points could be better spent elsewhere, on something that would get a job done well for those points. Tacticals may be the all rounders of the Space Marine army in fluff, but on the tabletop they are best used as a close range shooty unit or long range with their heavy weapon, or both. Rarely are they that great in assault, and while the power fist makes them better, it's sort of false, and it only has best effectiveness against a small niche of targets. Against most targets it's either helpless or superfluous. That being said, some units can make good use of the power fist. I have one with combi-melta, meltagun, plasma cannon and a power fist, and while I don't use it often, when I do use it it does well enough. The odd unit can benefit from a power fist, but I'd urge against blanketing your force with them.

 

EDIT: just noticed your post count and join up date. Sorry, didn't realize you were a new member. Welcome to B+C, and I hope I didn't give the wrong welcoming impression with my posts, hope you enjoy your time here :).

[Project.2501]

Also, against T3 the pwr wpn/bolt pistol really starts to shine.

 

This is true -- to a point. Tactical Squads don't normally assault to push enemies off objectives. Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and massed shooting do that for us. Which means that most of the stuff that you'll be fighting that's T3 is the sort of thing that Tac Marines don't want to be fighting anyway, like Wyches or Howling Banshees.

 

My apologies for missing your post.

 

The power weapon gives me the option of assaulting, even though tac squads are jacks of all trades. Shooting alone may ge your enemy off an objective, but it won't necessarily get you onto it either (rapid firing means you stay put till your next turn, if there is one) which you may just need to have/contest. The flamer helps with this as between it, bolt pistols and frag grenades, i can still soften up the unit i wish to assault even if it's in cover.

 

Also, the powersword helps for when you invariably are assaulted as well (if your opponent is dedicated and/or his army is set up to do so, like with DE) you can still (almost) garauntee that your opponent will take some wounds as well.

 

I just love the jack-of-all trades abilities tac squads have and expand upon it, it's just my personal taste. I'm not saying that they're better than dedicated units at the dedicated unit's role, just that they can accomplish those roles as well, as long as you plan/equip (and roll) accordingly.