Imperial Truth (Spoilers)

[Prathios]

***SPOILERS***

Mild First Heretic Spoilers

 

So after having read all the Horus Heresy books to date it has come to my attention that perhaps the greatest failure in the 40k universe was Imperial Truth. I remember the righteous debate that flared up over the short story where the Emperor debates with the clergyman over the problems with religion. There were some decent arguments on both sides, but ultimately it was banned because too many people were trying to apply real world scenarios and beliefs to the debate. The First Heretic sheds some light though, on a belief that started to form over the course of reading the books.

 

Perhaps the biggest flaw in the Emperors plan, was in fact, his biggest singular motivation. The Emperor had come to the belief that any faith of any sort was evil and led to mankind's destruction. Because of this he outlawed religion and punished it wherever he found it. The flaw lies in creating the ignorance that fed the heresy. Had the chaos gods not been able to play on this ignorance the civil war may not have been as destructive, or certainly would not have led to the Emperors internment in the golden throne.

 

The Emperor failed to understand that impulses that drive man. He thought that by removing a symptom he could cure the problem. Religion was a symptom of mans desire to believe in something greater than himself. Lorgar was in many ways right about man. However, the Emperors staunch and unrelenting stance on Imperial Truth caused him to treat Lorgar with disdain rather than understanding. Had he simply behaved in a fatherly manner, or been able to grasp that Lorgar was at least partially right... The chaos gods would never have been able to call Lorgar into starting the road to The Horus Heresy. I believe the weight of the HH is actually the most heavily carried, by the Emperor himself. He brought the civil war upon himself by his unreasonable stance, believing ignorance of the warp would save humanity. He understood the temptation would be to great for some, and so he sought to hide it. This only led to the fall of Lorgar, who was so much like his father.

 

In this light, it's hard not to sympathize with Lorgar. At least until he starts to make incredibly dangerous choices. It all springs from an uncaring father and an edict that only made his sons ill prepared to deal with the foe that brought them low. Despite being a staunch imperial player, and fan of the loyalist legions, I am truly disappointed in the Emperor for his decisions throughout the HH books. The Eldar had some good points about him in Legion.

 

What do you guys think?

[Magic Dragon]

What I would like to believe is that the emperor had a very wide ranging plan for the human race that was going to see them eventually "win". I'd like to believe that everything that happened during and since the Horus Heresy was forseen and is part of an overarching long scale plan perhaps culminating some time around 40K???

[awfulawful]

To say that you have found a flaw in the Emperor's plan implies that you know what that plan is.

[Prathios]

To say that you have found a flaw in the Emperor's plan implies that you know what that plan is.

 

Considering his hesitancy to kill Horus it was not part of his plan to fight his son in a civil war. The Emperor did not hesitate in anything along the road he chose. But he hesitated here. Considering he is needed to lead humanity against the rising Necrons, the 13th Black Crusade, and the Tyranid invasion and yet is incapacitated... not really thinking this was his plan. I think you're giving the writing too much of an out by thinking along the lines that everything is part of the plan. The Eldar could foresee the exact situation that is occurring and tried to lead the Alpha Legion along a different path to keep this from happening. I would think that if some good is to come of it, there would be some hint in the Eldars plans.

 

Needless to say, you're response is not particularly insightful.

 

As for Magic Dragons post, this is possible but think about how warped Imperial Truth is in the 40k universe. The Emperor would not have stood for the behavior of the Imperial Cult. The Emperor may have been godlike but he was a man in nature, he had flaws. I think the few he had were detrimental to the fate of man. However I don't think he loses until his soul is banished, when he dies... My money is on reincarnation or ascendancy.

[Ethrion]

One other thing to also remember is that in quite a few cases - Lorgar, Mortarion and Horus come to mind - it was not entirely the chaos gods themselves 'turning' the primarchs. Initially it was their closest trusted liutenants that drip fed secessionist and traitorous thoughts until the crack in their armour was open enough to allow in chaos. Erebus especially was the one that truly fell to chaos and started converting primarchs.

 

But yes, you're right, the ignorance and the reaction of the Emperor in a lot of situations was detrimental and could have been handled better which with hindsight would have prevented or significantly altered the outcome of the heresy.

[Prathios]

One other thing to also remember is that in quite a few cases - Lorgar, Mortarion and Horus come to mind - it was not entirely the chaos gods themselves 'turning' the primarchs. Initially it was their closest trusted liutenants that drip fed secessionist and traitorous thoughts until the crack in their armour was open enough to allow in chaos. Erebus especially was the one that truly fell to chaos and started converting primarchs.

 

But yes, you're right, the ignorance and the reaction of the Emperor in a lot of situations was detrimental and could have been handled better which with hindsight would have prevented or significantly altered the outcome of the heresy.

 

Actually to add to your post, these well placed whispering mouths were placed as a plot.

Erebus was basically a chaos missionary sent by Lorgar. Though that might be a tad obvious even if you have not read the newest book.

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, Mortarion turned traitor, but he didn't even begin worshipping Nurgle until he got infected with the Destroyer Plague by Typhon, who'd fallen entirely on his own, rather than by the influence of the Word Bearers.

[Prathios]

Well, Mortarion turned traitor, but he didn't even begin worshipping Nurgle until he got infected with the Destroyer Plague by Typhon, who'd fallen entirely on his own, rather than by the influence of the Word Bearers.

 

This is a good example but look at the bigger picture, without the word bearers spreading the chaos taint like a plague the heresy would not have started. Nobody else was being whispered to in the dark like Lorgar. It wasn't until Lorgar started being the prophet of chaos that all these balls started rolling.

[Billuriye]

Informed or not primarchs will fall to chaos. They don't need to be seduced, chaos is powerful enough forcibly converse them. Look at Horus, he was killed then resurrected and got infected with chaos in process. Fulgrim is another who got his mind enthralled.

[Morollan]

Informed or not primarchs will fall to chaos. They don't need to be seduced, chaos is powerful enough forcibly converse them. Look at Horus, he was killed then resurrected and got infected with chaos in process. Fulgrim is another who got his mind enthralled.

 

I can't recall a single example of forcible conversion to Chaos. There is always a choice. Horus wasn't killed. He was healed before death. And if he had been made aware of the Ruinous Powers, he might have been a tad more wary of the Nurgle-infested moon of Davin and the means by which both Magnus and Erebus dealt with him during his visions whilst wounded. As for Fulgrim, if was aware of the Ruinous Powers he might not have been so quick to pick up the Daemon Weapon he found on Laeran.

[Billuriye]

I can't recall a single example of forcible conversion to Chaos. There is always a choice. Horus wasn't killed. He was healed before death. And if he had been made aware of the Ruinous Powers, he might have been a tad more wary of the Nurgle-infested moon of Davin and the means by which both Magnus and Erebus dealt with him during his visions whilst wounded. As for Fulgrim, if was aware of the Ruinous Powers he might not have been so quick to pick up the Daemon Weapon he found on Laeran.

 

In Prospero Burns daemon Horus says "this blade will have done its work upon me, i will be finished and i will be renewed" and "they will warp me". I assumed Horus was really killed and resurrected. As for Fulgrim, he senses the malign influence of blade over him but he's too powerless to resist it. I doubt knowledge of Chaos would change that.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I like the Dornian Heresy's take on that. Make Chaos open? Still would have Primarch's falling.

The Imperial Truth was not the Big E's failing. It was a good idea. Think about it, from First Hertic Lorgar's only definition for a god was power. That was it. He should have been worshiping Eldar and Necrons since they can scry time, live for bloody ever, defy life and death, jump whole star systems in a single bound, etc etc etc. But the Emperor calls him on this. It is a matter of perception. The Chaos "Gods" after all, are just malicious warp entities, alien consciousness that exist on a separate plane of existence and interact with this one in the right circumstances and setting.

 

The Emperor was setting up something higher to believe in, Mankind's destiny to rule the stars, our ability to better ourselves through rational though, and the Imperium as a greater extension of those ideals. The fact that ignorant primates kept saying "god god god god!" no matter how many times he said "nope nope nope QUIT IT!" is not the Emperor's fault.

 

As for bringing the Civil War on himself, VEHEMENTLY disagree. The weakness of the Primarchs did that. Not a one of them had a reason to turn that was legitimate or certainly not one that would validate betraying your liege lord, tearing down the empire you swore to serve and fought to uphold, and attacking your brothers in arms. Mostly all they had to do was shut up and obey for just a little while longer and await the Big E's completion of his work.

 

It is VERY hard to sympathize with Lorgar. He was a religious idiot and a hypocrite. In First Heretic he reveals this time and again.

He ignores the Emperor's own verbal refutation of his divinity. He ignores the Emperor's policy of eliminating religiosity. He then simpers at the destruction of one city, after killing countless others in his crusades, and when Kor Phaeron/Erebus is revealed to have been LYING TO HIM THE WHOLE TIME the fool just goes along with his plans. I recall a conversation where he mentions that a god that would ask such terrible things is not a god worth worshipping...and then goes and follows Chaos. For a self proclaimed philosopher, he does precious little analysis. Another example of his hypocrisy is in his own refusal to obey the Emperor. For a being professing such faith, he had precious little in his father, liege lord, and "god." If commanded to stop what he was doing, he should have taken it in stride as a command from on high, if indeed he had such "faith."

 

Lorgar was a pathetic little thing, desperate to fall on his knees to worship something. Hope he enjoys his spot before Slaanesh's throne. Don't worry Lorgar, the Chaos Gods will tell you when they are done.

[Yogi]

The Emperor is not subtle. He is a blunt tyrant who solves his problems with liberal applications of genocide.

 

Think, when has the emperor been written as subtle? Never. That's his flaw.

 

Expecting him to tread softly around Lorgar or any Primarch, is like the blood god wanting flowers instead of skulls.

 

I personally like to think he is quite mad in his own way.

[Greyall]

I'd say he was subtle enough when he rebuilt the Webway beneath the Fortress without telling anything to his sons.

 

He also didn't tell most of them about Chaos.

 

Still, his typical response is far from genocide. He made an agreement with the Mechanicum, united humans all around the Galaxy - not always through military might - and he did not spank Magnus in front of a whole assembly in Nikaea (maybe he should have).

 

He's done obvious mistakes, not least of which being an ass to some of his Primarchs, but I do believe his vision and actions had enough merit to have been more thoroughly followed by some of his sons. His worst mistake might have been his fanatical opposition to religion. What he did to Lorgar's capital was just dumb - incidentally, that pretty much helped start the whole mess.

[Wolfbiter]

Interesting discussion. The thing I find most puzzling about the Emperor and his Imperial Truth creed is how inconsistently it's applied.

 

"The Last Church" makes it pretty clear that even during the unification of Terra, the Emperor was opposed to religion and planned to suppress it in favor of his pro-reason, Imperial Truth creed. The early Horus Heresy novels seem to agree that Imperial Truth and opposition to religion is standard doctrine throughout the Imperium.

 

But during the Crusade, this wasn't consistently applied at all. Examples:

 

-When Terran forces made contact with Mars, the Mechanicum hailed the Emperor as the Omnissiah, the Machine God incarnate. Not only did the Emperor allow the Mechanicum to continue practicing the Cult of the Machine God during the Crusade, he accepted the mantle of Omnissiah as part of the treaty of alliance between Terra and Mars (if I remember the description from "Mechanicum" correctly.)

 

-"The First Heretic" and the old Word Bearers Index Astartes in White Dwarf both describe how after the Emperor arrived on Colchis, Lorgar and his Covenant hailed him as a deity, and the Emperor did not contradict them, nor did he demand that Lorgar dismantle the ruling theocracy of Colchis. In fact, Lorgar asks a very good question in "First Heretic": Why did the Emperor wait 100 years into the Crusade before punishing the Word Bearers? He'd seen their homeworld embraced organized worship in every part of its culture, but didn't punish them back then.

 

I also think it's curious that the Emperor was similarly inconsistent about psykers. For centuries the Legions can train psykers and develop their powers, then the big E came down so hard on Magnus and his Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while letting the Space Wolves Rune Priests run around throwing lightning bolts. Again, just before the Heresy.

 

I think these two things are connected. It's just pure speculation on my part; you are welcome to mock me if you will. :o But here's my idea:

 

I think the Emperor was always anti-religious, but in the early stages of Unification and the Crusade, was willing to provide some "leeway" to valuable allies such as Mars and Lorgar/Colchis. But I think at some point in the last few decades prior to the Heresy, he learned something about the nature of Chaos he didn't know before, and it scared him silly. Possibly that the Chaos Gods are fully intelligent, universal forces of pure evil and they grow stronger from worship, maybe he discovered Lorgar's proselytizing on hundreds of worlds was boosting their power, or just a vision that increased religion/psyker proliferation would break down the barriers between the material universe and the warp. Some terrible apocalyptic revalation connected to worship and the warp.

 

The Emperor's got to concentrate all his efforts on stopping this terrible future from coming to pass. He turns over command of the Crusade to Horus and returns to Terra. He looks around and realizes Lorgar is converting planet after planet to religious worship; he's got to stop that. Then he finds out the Thousand Sons are delving into dangerous psychic research, which is also a problem. Realizing how close to the edge the Imperium is, the Emperor panics. He brutally cracks down Lorgar and Magnus, hoping to cut off the source of the disaster before it starts. He probably assumes since the Primarchs are his sons and fanatically loyal, that they'll just take it and do what he says until he can enact a solution.

 

But that doesn't happen. Instead, Lorgar (and Magnus); hurt and baffled by the Emperor's mixed messages and heavy-handed brutality, kick off events that will lead to the Heresy and the eventual acension of the Chaos Gods.

 

The Emperor's greatest flaw, in my opinion, is that he always assumes that because he's so wise and powerful, that everyone will obey him absolutely because he knows best. It never occurs to him to trust or confide in any of the Primarchs, even Horus. The Emperor never seems to imagine that his actions would be seen by Lorgar, Horus and Magnus (who he won't confide in) as arbitrary and wrong. And I think that was the mistake more than any other that sets off the Heresy.

[MagicMan]

Good analysis, Wolfbiter.

[Prathios]

I'd say he was subtle enough when he rebuilt the Webway beneath the Fortress without telling anything to his sons.

 

He also didn't tell most of them about Chaos.

 

Still, his typical response is far from genocide. He made an agreement with the Mechanicum, united humans all around the Galaxy - not always through military might - and he did not spank Magnus in front of a whole assembly in Nikaea (maybe he should have).

 

He's done obvious mistakes, not least of which being an ass to some of his Primarchs, but I do believe his vision and actions had enough merit to have been more thoroughly followed by some of his sons. His worst mistake might have been his fanatical opposition to religion. What he did to Lorgar's capital was just dumb - incidentally, that pretty much helped start the whole mess.

 

Yeah, I agree with this totally.

[Prathios]

Interesting discussion. The thing I find most puzzling about the Emperor and his Imperial Truth creed is how inconsistently it's applied.

 

"The Last Church" makes it pretty clear that even during the unification of Terra, the Emperor was opposed to religion and planned to suppress it in favor of his pro-reason, Imperial Truth creed. The early Horus Heresy novels seem to agree that Imperial Truth and opposition to religion is standard doctrine throughout the Imperium.

 

But during the Crusade, this wasn't consistently applied at all. Examples:

 

-When Terran forces made contact with Mars, the Mechanicum hailed the Emperor as the Omnissiah, the Machine God incarnate. Not only did the Emperor allow the Mechanicum to continue practicing the Cult of the Machine God during the Crusade, he accepted the mantle of Omnissiah as part of the treaty of alliance between Terra and Mars (if I remember the description from "Mechanicum" correctly.)

 

-"The First Heretic" and the old Word Bearers Index Astartes in White Dwarf both describe how after the Emperor arrived on Colchis, Lorgar and his Covenant hailed him as a deity, and the Emperor did not contradict them, nor did he demand that Lorgar dismantle the ruling theocracy of Colchis. In fact, Lorgar asks a very good question in "First Heretic": Why did the Emperor wait 100 years into the Crusade before punishing the Word Bearers? He'd seen their homeworld embraced organized worship in every part of its culture, but didn't punish them back then.

 

I also think it's curious that the Emperor was similarly inconsistent about psykers. For centuries the Legions can train psykers and develop their powers, then the big E came down so hard on Magnus and his Thousand Sons for use of psychic powers while letting the Space Wolves Rune Priests run around throwing lightning bolts. Again, just before the Heresy.

 

I think these two things are connected. It's just pure speculation on my part; you are welcome to mock me if you will. ^_^ But here's my idea:

 

I think the Emperor was always anti-religious, but in the early stages of Unification and the Crusade, was willing to provide some "leeway" to valuable allies such as Mars and Lorgar/Colchis. But I think at some point in the last few decades prior to the Heresy, he learned something about the nature of Chaos he didn't know before, and it scared him silly. Possibly that the Chaos Gods are fully intelligent, universal forces of pure evil and they grow stronger from worship, maybe he discovered Lorgar's proselytizing on hundreds of worlds was boosting their power, or just a vision that increased religion/psyker proliferation would break down the barriers between the material universe and the warp. Some terrible apocalyptic revalation connected to worship and the warp.

 

The Emperor's got to concentrate all his efforts on stopping this terrible future from coming to pass. He turns over command of the Crusade to Horus and returns to Terra. He looks around and realizes Lorgar is converting planet after planet to religious worship; he's got to stop that. Then he finds out the Thousand Sons are delving into dangerous psychic research, which is also a problem. Realizing how close to the edge the Imperium is, the Emperor panics. He brutally cracks down Lorgar and Magnus, hoping to cut off the source of the disaster before it starts. He probably assumes since the Primarchs are his sons and fanatically loyal, that they'll just take it and do what he says until he can enact a solution.

 

But that doesn't happen. Instead, Lorgar (and Magnus); hurt and baffled by the Emperor's mixed messages and heavy-handed brutality, kick off events that will lead to the Heresy and the eventual acension of the Chaos Gods.

 

The Emperor's greatest flaw, in my opinion, is that he always assumes that because he's so wise and powerful, that everyone will obey him absolutely because he knows best. It never occurs to him to trust or confide in any of the Primarchs, even Horus. The Emperor never seems to imagine that his actions would be seen by Lorgar, Horus and Magnus (who he won't confide in) as arbitrary and wrong. And I think that was the mistake more than any other that sets off the Heresy.

 

I can't disagree with any of this. This was my thinking on it as well. I think even with his failings he would have ultimately succeeded had Magnus not ruined it for him.

[Centurion Tom]

The thing I find odd, is that, and this my understanding of the nature of chaos, but the denizens of the warp feed off the emotions of humans. So the crusade in all its violent , death causing, change brining glory was always going to feed the creatures in the warp. So while the imperial truth would deny the chaos gods true nature to the mass's, it would not stop their main source of power, human emotion. To me the Emperor doesn't seem to grasp their true nature, or perhaps doesn't deem it important, leading to the inconsistency's outlined so excellently by Wolfbiter.

 

But we don't really know the full extent of the Emperors plans, perhaps the imperial truth was the first step to something more.

[Hrolleif]

-When Terran forces made contact with Mars, the Mechanicum hailed the Emperor as the Omnissiah, the Machine God incarnate. Not only did the Emperor allow the Mechanicum to continue practicing the Cult of the Machine God during the Crusade, he accepted the mantle of Omnissiah as part of the treaty of alliance between Terra and Mars (if I remember the description from "Mechanicum" correctly.)

 

-"The First Heretic" and the old Word Bearers Index Astartes in White Dwarf both describe how after the Emperor arrived on Colchis, Lorgar and his Covenant hailed him as a deity, and the Emperor did not contradict them, nor did he demand that Lorgar dismantle the ruling theocracy of Colchis. In fact, Lorgar asks a very good question in "First Heretic": Why did the Emperor wait 100 years into the Crusade before punishing the Word Bearers? He'd seen their homeworld embraced organized worship in every part of its culture, but didn't punish them back then.

Seeing as how long he'd been subtly leading humanity and setting up for the Great Crusade, obviously his patience was great. Perhaps he was attempting a slow process of changes to facilitate a more orderly transition. A population that feels they've chosen (or maybe even truly choosen) a certain way is definitely more likely to adhere to a path than one that is forced and indoctrinated. Hundreds of thousands of years of religious beliefs couldn't possibly change overnight, especially when humanity is a scattered in the galaxy as it was after the Old Night. A lot of ingrained beliefs to overcome. But focusing his complete attention on his goals (and how far removed he was from the human race) and his carefully laid plans he neglected how fallible the average human was, or even a primarch's failings.