What's the point of halberds when we have librarians?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Pretty much what the topic says. From what I'm reading online, everyone seems to be going nuts about the I6 halberds, especially on terminators. Why? A librarian is already going to be pretty much mandatory in any competitive list just for the hood, but they look to be the best HQ option overall too. Sure, not all squads are going to be in range for quicksilver at all times, but you also don't need higher I at all times. It seems like it would be better to keep your 4++ in cc on your terminators and save your points on power armored models and just use quicksilver for those situations where high initiative matters. Quicksilver also makes falchions very worth considering, even if interpreted to give only +1 attack

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Pretty much what the topic says. From what I'm reading online, everyone seems to be going nuts about the I6 halberds, especially on terminators. Why? A librarian is already going to be pretty much mandatory in any competitive list just for the hood, but they look to be the best HQ option overall too. Sure, not all squads are going to be in range for quicksilver at all times, but you also don't need higher I at all times. It seems like it would be better to keep your 4++ in cc on your terminators and save your points on power armored models and just use quicksilver for those situations where high initiative matters. Quicksilver also makes falchions very worth considering, even if interpreted to give only +1 attack

 

Even if a Libby is in the army, can you guarantee Quicksilver? How many armies have anti-psyker these days? Quicksilver effects one unit, how many units do you intend to take on the battlefield?

 

I'd argue that of all the powers you can give a Libby, quicksilver is one of the least useful. I'd rather be casting things like might of titan, sanctuary, summoning and warp rift.

 

Halberds are reliable, always give you I6, can't be countered and don't rely on your libby being close enough to cast a power.

[Ashe Darke]

Some people, like myself, run PA and a GM. Adding a Libby to that is too costly and what with my guys in Rhinos I don't really have a decent way of getting the Libby up field short of Deep Striking which I'm not a fan of.

 

Against an Eldar list with Runes of Warding your chances of passing are slim and it's 50/50 against Rune Priests etc.

[Chucku]

It's nice to get high Init without risking Perils...

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

What they said. To easy to get rid of. B.A also have an almost obligatory librarian as well, so like... 56% chance to pull it off on them xD

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Is this thread a joke? Come on man. Most of this has been said, but a summary isn't a bad idea:

 

1) Librarian powers don't always work. You fail your psychic test, another hood shuts you down.

2) It only helps one unit.

3) Some people may run competitive lists without Librarians (the guy is damn expensive).

4) Many people run pseudo-competitive lists or non-competitive ones and would rather have the benefit of Grand Strategy, or a cheap Inquisitor in order to spend more points elsewhere.

5) The Librarian can still die fairly easily in CC, then you have no high Initiative attacks. If you take halbreds you don't have that problem.

[RedemptionNL]

6) Halberds look awesome.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

LOL. Indeed!

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

What the redemptionist said, plus I am not going to stop using all my metal models (i prefere them to the new ones.) still not sold on the new codex to be onest, though part of me is thinking of doing a ordo xenos army with deathwatch count as grey knights (Iam still a pure grey knight player, I just keep using the old codex whilst I think about the new codex, am not to sure on it myself

[Angelis Mortis]

The number one reason I think is a Librarian is a much greater risk. He is one model the rest depend on. He goes, so does the buff. In addition, he can suffer perils or be countered with hood/anti-psyker gear/rules. Halberds are more reliable. I liken it to iron sights on a rifle or a holo sight. Sure the holo sight is great until you drop it or the batteries run out. Iron sights don't have batteries and wont break when you drop it (99% of the time anyways). I think that pretty much describes the relationship.

[Zagman]

I can't believe people have failed to mention that Quicksilver only works for your turn. How about when you get charged? I6 halberds are a guarantee.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I don't run Liby's in my lists for points reasons. The GM is more useful to me so Halberds do the job.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You're pretty fearless if your running a GK army without a Librarian, considering that;

 

1) He's your only psychic hood ('Aegis' is completely worthless unless you're all clustered around a Dreadnought)

2) He's your only source of 'Might of Titan'

3) He's your only source of 'Shrouding' (very important to mech armies here, as they benefit a lot from the Stealth aura)

4) He is one of the few non-special characters who can use two powers by default

 

I consider him a mandatory inclusion in any competitive army, Grandmaster is far more optional.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

You're pretty fearless if your running a GK army without a Librarian, considering that;

 

1) He's your only psychic hood ('Aegis' is completely worthless unless you're all clustered around a Dreadnought)

2) He's your only source of 'Might of Titan'

3) He's your only source of 'Shrouding' (very important to mech armies here, as they benefit a lot from the Stealth aura)

4) He is one of the few non-special characters who can use two powers by default

 

I consider him a mandatory inclusion in any competitive army, Grandmaster is far more optional.

 

That's the great thing about 40k, one man's mandatory is another's optional.

 

For my local meta and my playstyle the Libby is not fir for purpose, others will disagree. But as long as this doesn't turn into a soapbox, ranting flame war it's all good.

 

Everyone has their own style, iof 40k was about one single, optimised list of awesome, it'd be too boring to play. But I'll run down your points.

 

1) In my experience the psychic hood isn't all that good. All of our psyker foes run the same leadership so it is not all that reliable. If 'm investing points I want things I can rely on.

2) In all honesty I find might of titan a bit overkill. Sure I can make ONE unit in my army str6 (stacked with hammerhand) but again it might not go off, allot of armies have anti-psyker meta and quite frankly I find str5 works well enough.

3) Shrouding is good, but I play aggressive teleport lists and I have so much psycannon spam that transports don't threaten me. As soon as I get one of my units within 24 the enemy transport is just blown apart by concentrated psycannon fire.

4) Sure he can use 2 powers by default, but in my playstyle I rely more on the GM's strategy ability and I don't mind paying 35 poits to make him a level 2. He still works out cheaper than a kitted out libby.

 

As i said, each of us has their own ideas on what constitutes competitive.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

1) In my experience the psychic hood isn't all that good. All of our psyker foes run the same leadership so it is not all that reliable. If 'm investing points I want things I can rely on.

 

I didn't say it was amazingly awesome (Runes of Warding is 1,000 times better, so is 'Shadow in the Warp'), but it's better than nothing (which is what 'Aegis' has been reduced to). It also can be used against buff powers or AOE powers used by the enemy, which form 90% of all psychic powers anyway (again, 'Aegis' is useless). If you don't take a Librarian, you don't get the hood. Ask any Chaos player how it feels to watch Jaws eat half their army, while getting their Lash or Warptime blocked on a 4+ from rune staffs. Of course, if you tend to fight armies without psykers (Tau, non-Eldrad Eldar, Sisters, most Guard armies, all but the most insane Ork armies etc), that particular benefit is lost. But given that most top tier armies include psykers or psychic characters, it's worthwhile to have. I guarantee you'll need it at any tournament you attend, given how stupidly OP some Space Wolf stuff gets.

 

2) In all honesty I find might of titan a bit overkill. Sure I can make ONE unit in my army str6 (stacked with hammerhand) but again it might not go off, allot of armies have anti-psyker meta and quite frankly I find str5 works well enough.

 

Your argument makes no sense dude. Overkill doesn't exist with Grey Knights, they're way too balanced in close-combat (almost to the point of being bad at it). Trust me, you need S6, and more importantly that extra D6 vs armour, a lot more than you might assume. Grey Knights don't have the attack output to kill infantry when they only wound on 4's (at best), making up for our low number of hits with wounding with almost every one of them is a big boost.

Secondly, if anti-psyker is such a problem, wouldn't you want to be forcing as many psychic tests as possible? That way, you overload their hoods/rune staffs/whatever, and either 'Might' or 'Hammerhand' get through. S5 is nice, but with our typically poor damage output, S6 is much more preferable (and that D6 extra vs walkers or tanks is a lifesaver).

 

3) Shrouding is good, but I play aggressive teleport lists and I have so much psycannon spam that transports don't threaten me. As soon as I get one of my units within 24 the enemy transport is just blown apart by concentrated psycannon fire.

 

'Shrouding' is a benefit to you, not a debuff to the enemy, so I don't follow your logic. Whether you're popping transports or not is irrelvant, what matters is that when the inevitable retaliation comes (Guard bombing you to dust with blasts, Marine armies shooting plasma/melta/plasma cannon into you etc), you'll have something to back up your power armour if its negated. Also, transports rarely do much ranged damage, so whether they're present or not doesn't impact on the usefulness of 'Shrouding' at all. The point I was making in my earlier post was that YOUR transports benefit from 'Shrouding' a lot (even without smokes, a 6+ save is better than nothing).

 

4) Sure he can use 2 powers by default, but in my playstyle I rely more on the GM's strategy ability and I don't mind paying 35 poits to make him a level 2. He still works out cheaper than a kitted out libby.

 

:P Again, you're bending my mind dude. A quick comparison;

 

Librarian w/halberd, 'Might', 'Quickening', 'Shrouding', 'Sanctuary'

(175 points)

 

vs

 

Grandmaster w/sword

(175 points)

 

Unless you're loading down your Librarian with anything but those 4 must-have powers, or expensive junk like warding staves or psybolt ammo, I don't see how he'll end up even being more than a Grandmaster. I often don't even take the halberd on a Librarian (his I4 sucks but a 4+ invul is very welcome when he gets picked out in close-combat by powerfists or heroes).

 

Also, more relevant than the 2-powers ability (which I think is more a red herring, my bad) is the point that the Librarians powers are not replicable anywhere else in the army. You can get 'Psychic Communion' on a dirt-cheap Inquisitor if you want reserves manipulation in smaller games (there is no logical reason not to take a Grandmaster if you can afford to, 'Grand Strategy' is hilariously hax), you can even get a modicum of 'Grand Strategy' by taking Crowe instead (because scoring Purifiers are amazing). But nowhere else will you get a 'Stealth' aura, an assault buffer so you can get the charge or back up for moar dakka before they hit you, a way to kill walkers before they start smushing your dudes (and not being as reliant on the squad hammer to kill vehicles in close-combat), and of course a way to make falchions useful (by stacking with 'Quicksilver').

 

Yeah you can do without him (my Monkey Army O'Doom doesn't worry about it), but I'd question what characters are better for their points or their army buffs. He's a solid choice regardless of what army you are fielding (whereas Crowe is for Purifier addicts like me, Coteaz is for pseudo-Guard or Monkey Army O'Doom, aside from Draigo the other SC's are great concepts badly executed), and he brings the only psychic suppression worth writing about (as not every army will have Dreadnoughts, and more importantly your squads might not feel like clustering around said Dreadnoughts like a totem pole).

[death_incarnite]

i must state first off that i love the reference to iron sights and i will deffinately be using that quote in the future. another thing is its true psychic hoods. my version of psyker defence is a psyk out missile strike :D. but back to the point the hq section is ussually filled with what ever most helps the army Eg inquisitors for reserves manipulation, the shrouding for mech armys and quick silver for falcions. also let me point out one more thing, lets say you are duking it out with some chaos slaanesh marines, 10 guys attack 2 a each because of pistols, 20 a, 10 hit, 5 w, 3.33 dead... and thats before you got to throw in a single shot, but give them halberds and 10 a, 5 hit, 3.33 dead before the slaans hit... a little irony their for you... (why, why! did you have to get rid of true grit!) lol. well on the other hand if you have falcion knights buffed by quick silver on the charge against termys, "bolts" 13.3 hit, 6.65 wound, 1.1 dead, then 30 a 15 h, 7 w... 8 terms lie dead before they even got to strike... "glares at logan grimnar and gives his own wolfy grin"

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Psi-strike missiles are highly lulzy (my magical silver warhead just caused your face to asplode for no reason), but I would've preferred a HK missile like BA have on their Stormravens.

[jmach]

I myself am a fan of the grand master in my local meta over the librarian, there are quite a few blood angel, space wolves, and eldar running around. Yes the psychic hood would be nice but relying on the psychic power to strike before them seems less impressive than striking before them on initiative 6 with halberds with all the defenses they get in return, and yes a fair share of eldar will be striking on initiative 6 or higher but perils sucks, or even getting the power stopped and having to strike on initiative with the other marines that outnumber you in most cases. I like the grand master and his grenades with I5 and grand strategy to provide some more flexibility to the army. Yes quicksilver can be cast on multiple units but that requires you to keep your army in close proximity to that unit making it vulnerable to templates, enemy psychers though you have defenses against them, and allowing your opponent to keep you at range from their more valuable units via tarpit and allowing them to shoot you from beyond your 24" range.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I myself am a fan of the grand master in my local meta over the librarian, there are quite a few blood angel, space wolves, and eldar running around. Yes the psychic hood would be nice but relying on the psychic power to strike before them seems less impressive than striking before them on initiative 6 with halberds with all the defenses they get in return, and yes a fair share of eldar will be striking on initiative 6 or higher but perils sucks, or even getting the power stopped and having to strike on initiative with the other marines that outnumber you in most cases.

 

Run on sentences! My eyes! :)

/grammar nazi

 

Librarian and halberds can co-exist in an army, so I don't see your point really. The topic is basically about 'the unit with the Librarian doesn't need halberds'. In terms of army-wide application, no you cannot rely on multiple powers going off, hence take halberds for backup (and so you don't have to cast 'Quicksilver' unless neccessary). Against the opponents you are talking about, a Librarian would be pretty excellent. Blood Angels and Wolves will seek to press their advantages in close-combat, not at range, so 'Might' and 'Sanctuary' are fantastic at boosting your dudemanz to S6 (and breaking those crazy BA Dreads apart) and providing an assault buffer to slow them down (so you get the charge, or at least more shooting done). Eldar are kinda in the same boat, their ranged firepower is pretty pathetic next to Knights, but Harlies and Banshees with a good 'Doom' will slaughter our shiny manz in close-combat. Again, Librarian would be of more use to you.

 

Yeah other Marines outnumber you (not by much though, in my experience it's usually 1.5x), but thats because they have to run the gauntlet of your firepower and still reach you with enough manz to kill you through attrition (in a straight shootout, even Devastators are lagging behind Knights).

 

I like the grand master and his grenades with I5 and grand strategy to provide some more flexibility to the army. Yes quicksilver can be cast on multiple units but that requires you to keep your army in close proximity to that unit making it vulnerable to templates, enemy psychers though you have defenses against them, and allowing your opponent to keep you at range from their more valuable units via tarpit and allowing them to shoot you from beyond your 24" range.

 

The grenades only apply to him and the unit he's with, so no on that front. 'Grand Strategy' is nice, but not essential. Librarian brings things you can't get elsewhere ('Shrouding' and 'Sanctuary' are probably his two best army buffs

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The topic is basically about 'the unit with the Librarian doesn't need halberds'.

 

Yes and no. When i originally created this topic, I was well aware of what most of the responses would be. However, nobody seems to be operating on the same assumption that I had when I made the topic—that a sword and a halberd on terminators are basically just as good as each other. And by that I mean that in some situations, the higher I is better, and in others the +1 invul in CC is better, but on the whole, neither is always the obvious choice. This is a big assumption, because it assumes that in an all comers list, fighting against other all comers lists, over many games against a lot of different opponents you'll average the same results regardless of if you had gone with swords or hammers. IE, for every time you win because you took halberds, you also win a different matchup because you took swords.

 

I'm not really sure the two are evenly balanced, but if they are, then the original question still stands. As many have pointed out in this thread, Quicksilver has limitations and problems, the foremost being that psychic defenses can stop it. This kind of automatically balances out in the bigger picture though, as if you have a librarian to cast powers to get stopped by psychic defenses, you also have psychic defenses of your own screwing them over.

 

The main point though, is that a librarian can provide you extra initiative, but there is no other way to get extra power weapon resistance. So, do you take the weapon who's role can be somewhat covered by a mere psychic power, or do you take the equally good weapon who's role cannot be fulfilled in any other way? This dilemma only really applies to terminators of course.

[breng77]

I didn't say it was amazingly awesome (Runes of Warding is 1,000 times better, so is 'Shadow in the Warp'),

 

I agree that runes are better (they shut down power's 50% of the time board wide comparied to an LD 10 hood at 41%) but Shadows in the warp is just about the worst psychic defense in the game. 12" range, and does not effect psykers in vehicles means it does next to nothing against most top tier armies. Psychic defense is not a necessity in a competitive army, it is good, but you can get by not having it if you make your list better elsewhere. As for the other libby powers, try them against psychic defense and if you have built your army to rely on them, watch yourself lose. NOw I will say that Libbies are a great HQ choice for Greyknights, but they are hardly mandatory. As for halberd Vs Sword, one gives you a chance to kill models before they attack, the other gives you a ~17% boost to your armor save...the halberd is better in general, and I would not want to force a squad to rely on the libby for the bonus initiative only to have them fail when they really need it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yes and no. When i originally created this topic, I was well aware of what most of the responses would be. However, nobody seems to be operating on the same assumption that I had when I made the topic—that a sword and a halberd on terminators are basically just as good as each other. And by that I mean that in some situations, the higher I is better, and in others the +1 invul in CC is better, but on the whole, neither is always the obvious choice. This is a big assumption, because it assumes that in an all comers list, fighting against other all comers lists, over many games against a lot of different opponents you'll average the same results regardless of if you had gone with swords or hammers. IE, for every time you win because you took halberds, you also win a different matchup because you took swords.

 

I'm not really sure the two are evenly balanced, but if they are, then the original question still stands. As many have pointed out in this thread, Quicksilver has limitations and problems, the foremost being that psychic defenses can stop it. This kind of automatically balances out in the bigger picture though, as if you have a librarian to cast powers to get stopped by psychic defenses, you also have psychic defenses of your own screwing them over.

 

The main point though, is that a librarian can provide you extra initiative, but there is no other way to get extra power weapon resistance. So, do you take the weapon who's role can be somewhat covered by a mere psychic power, or do you take the equally good weapon who's role cannot be fulfilled in any other way? This dilemma only really applies to terminators of course.

 

I don't think you'd find that to be the case in practise though man. Remember, halberd looks cool, and both he and sword guy die just as easily (the jump from 5+ to 4+ is pretty small, and remember it only applies in close-combat). And no, whilst 'Quicksilver' is worth taking (mainly to annoy DE players, when you ninja their Archon <_< ), it's not going to make up for halberds. Think of halberds as being your main option, while 'Quicksilver' is your backup plan should the enemy prove even faster (as I6 is usually all we need to go first, now we have frags on everyone, and I know I'd rather be casting other powers from the Libby).

 

I agree that runes are better (they shut down power's 50% of the time board wide comparied to an LD 10 hood at 41%) but Shadows in the warp is just about the worst psychic defense in the game. 12" range, and does not effect psykers in vehicles means it does next to nothing against most top tier armies. Psychic defense is not a necessity in a competitive army, it is good, but you can get by not having it if you make your list better elsewhere. As for the other libby powers, try them against psychic defense and if you have built your army to rely on them, watch yourself lose. NOw I will say that Libbies are a great HQ choice for Greyknights, but they are hardly mandatory. As for halberd Vs Sword, one gives you a chance to kill models before they attack, the other gives you a ~17% boost to your armor save...the halberd is better in general, and I would not want to force a squad to rely on the libby for the bonus initiative only to have them fail when they really need it.

 

'Shadows in the Warp' is annoying to psykers that wanna be in close-combat (which is most of them, except squishy Eldar), so I wouldn't discount it so easily (one of the most potent powers in the game, the force weapon face explode, will always be affected). Also, don't Tyranids have the Trygon for popping up in enemy lines and disrupting/eating psykers?

Also, I don't think your statement about Librarians always failing is accurate. Sure, every now and again you'll get blocked by rune staffs or hoods, but it's by no means a certainty (just like your own hood isn't ideal, but its alright). You cast two powers per player turn (seeing as 'Shrouding' and 'Sanctuary' are cast in the enemy turn, 'Might' and 'Quicksilver' can be cast in either or even both), some are going to get through.

Your last statement is exactly what I mean, relying on 'Quicksilver' where you could have halberds for free is just silly.

[breng77]

I did not say they always fail I would just not want to rely on the powers only having to have it fail when I need it, it is very tough to build an army around always using certain powers only to get them shut down.

 

As for Psykers in close combat, I disagree, most psykers are pretty bad in CC, or are support HQ (Marine Libbies are pretty bad in CC (Codex marine, Space Wolf, even BA) Also if you are using a trygon to disrupt psykers you have to pay 240 points for him as a trygon prime in order to get shadows, and then he only works in the psykers are not in vehicles.)

[Chengar Qordath]

'Shadows in the Warp' is annoying to psykers that wanna be in close-combat (which is most of them, except squishy Eldar), so I wouldn't discount it so easily (one of the most potent powers in the game, the force weapon face explode, will always be affected).

Unless you're fielding a GKT or Paladin unit with a Brotherhood Banner.

[number6]

However, nobody seems to be operating on the same assumption that I had when I made the topic—that a sword and a halberd on terminators are basically just as good as each other. And by that I mean that in some situations, the higher I is better, and in others the +1 invul in CC is better, but on the whole, neither is always the obvious choice.

Exactly right. This is an assumption you've made that most players -- myself included -- disagree with right off the top.

 

IMHO, it is always better to get your swings in first and kill enemy models before they can kill you. In 40K, Init is the greatest deciding factor of who wins close combats. The combatants who fight first have a much greater chance of winning combats. And if they're winning combats, that means they're surviving them.

 

In 40K, the best defense really is a good offense. :lol:

 

Guaranteeing Init 6 hits is way better than having a 4+ invul in close combat at Init 4. At Init 6, you get to take out virtually any other Marines you may be fighting. Even furious charging death company will die to you before they get to swing. Would you rather rely on your 4+ invuls against DC or kill them before they get to swing? (Hint: the choice here should be obvious. ;) )

 

Init 6 also puts the fear into many elite assault units. For example, Dark Eldar Incubi are seriously badass, one of the best assault units in the game. But they will be scythed down by GKs fighting at Init 6. GKs fighting at Init 4, however, will die like flies to them, even with 4+ invul saves. Even basic Wyches can do a number on GKs if allowed to because of their superior Init.

 

That's how important Init is in this game. At Init 4, you open yourself up to assaults and death by your enemy. But if you're at Init 6, you have to make them think much harder about committing to an assault against you.

 

There are only a two instances where I think swords are worth using.

 

1. Where it's not really worth the expense to upgrade away from swords. On Strike Squads and Interceptors, for example. These are not really combat units. Spending points trying to make them combat units would be better spent just getting yourself real combat units. Or further upgrading the combat units you already are taking.

 

2. To abuse wound allocation rules. This is best employed on Paladins and Purifiers, which are expensive units that you generally do want to get into assault (or at least shouldn't be afraid of putting them there). So long as you have a decent presence at Init 6 already, keeping a model or two with swords for wound allocation purposes can be tactically beneficial

 

But outside of that: reliable Init 6 is the way to go.