Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, and magna-grapples

[DarkGuard]

Hi guys. I've looked in the Blood Angels FAQ and done a search for this and found nothing whatsoever to answer my question, so now I'm turning to you guys.

 

Here's the situation, the other day I was playing a Blood Angels player, brilliant player may I add, true gent on the tabletop. Anyway, on his first turn he dropped his Death Company Dread with blood talons and magna grapple down by my las plas Razorback, sitting on my objective. He then proceeded to hit with the magna grapple, and pulled it towards his Dread.

 

Then we came up with a rules conundrum. My other friend who was there pointed out that he would be able to hit the vehicle in assault as it had been pulled into my opponent's Dread. He wasn't so sure if that was allowed, and checked his Codex, which stated that the vehicle is pulled towards the Dread, stopping when it reaches it or another vehicle etc. So from the look of it that was allowed. My opponent wasn't sure whether it was allowed when coming out of a Drop Pod however, as normally units cannot assault after Deep Striking, and he argued that this was basically initiating an assault.

 

In the end we couldn't come up with an answer, as my friend not playing seemed quite adamant that it could be done, whilst my opponent wasn't sure if it could. In the end we rolled for it and the dice said no, and my opponent was only too happy to accept that result.

 

Now I'm asking if he would have been correct to do so. I wasn't too fussed about the situation, as it seemed to me that he should be allowed to do so, and quite frankly, it would have been the punishment dealt out to my tank for not passing it's smoke launcher save! So the question is less of, can you hit something in assault after you've magna grappled it to you, but more of a, can you hit something in assault after magna grappling it to you after Deep Striking? On the one hand nothing says you can't do it, but on the other hand there's the issue that you can't assault after Deep Striking. So which one is it guys? Thanks.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I would say no and just have them standing there next to each other, if the razorback doesnt move during its turn though the dread can attack it then. Admitidly this is more of a by the hip call on my part.

[Something Wycked]

I'm not too sure about this. Codex trumps BRB, but unless the codex specifically says "if the vehicle is pulled into base contact with the dreadnought, it may act as though it charged the vehicle in the following assault phase," then the rule against assaulting in the turn you deep strike would still apply.

 

In any case, it sounds like your opponent is a fantastic guy to play :woot:

[Morollan]

There is nothing in the BA codex that would override the restriction that models may not assault on the turn they arrive via Drop Pod.

[DarkGuard]

I'm not too sure about this. Codex trumps BRB, but unless the codex specifically says "if the vehicle is pulled into base contact with the dreadnought, it may act as though it charged the vehicle in the following assault phase," then the rule against assaulting in the turn you deep strike would still apply.

 

In any case, it sounds like your opponent is a fantastic guy to play :D

 

He was indeed, very refreshing to play someone not looking to exploit one rule and another, not that many people at my LGS do, but you know, the odd person. When you factor in the fact that that was one of my scoring units that won me the game, and the twin-linked plasma gun was crucial when his reserves deep striked in, then it makes his decision to rule that he couldn't assault it even more remarkable, especially considering few other people were on his line of thinking. In the end it was a good, fun game and a real shame that there had to be a winner in the end.

 

The one thing I think some people were arguing was that the Dreadnought wasn't actually making an assault, as it wasn't making an assault move. Furthermore, the vehicle doesn't stop before base contact with the Dread, there doesn't seem to be something saying this. If that's the case, then I'd say this has more in common with the rule that you can strike a vehicle your in base contact with in the assault phase, which Frosty as alluded to. Certainly a tricky one, and one I think that will come down to personal preference or a dice roll. Frosty's suggestion is certainly fair, and just so you know, I did move the vehicle next turn :P.

 

As for a related question, something else I was unsure of was about. I'm assuming that if the Dread wasn't Deep Striking, then after the pulling the vehicle up to it it could strike the vehicle. If this is so, at what speed does the vehicle count as moving for the purposes of striking into combat? The speed it moved in the previous turn? The speed it was pulled in? Or count as stationary? I'd imagine it's the first one, but not sure.

 

Strange isn't it? How one, new fancy piece of wargear causes all these issues. Still, it's good to have some variety and innovation, especially among the Marine Codices.

[Leonaides]

i'd say that the dread could attack. Ds says it cannot make an assault move, not that it cannot attack. As for what roll neede to hit the vehicle, not sure but i'd probably say the speed it moved in its previous turn.

[timmytool]

a big note on the grapple rules

 

"The target does not change facing and will stop if it comes to within 1" of difficult terrain,impassable terrain,ANOTHER VEHICLE (friendly or enemy) or a unit locked in close combat." C:BA p60

 

This does include the magna-grapple equipped vehicle itself thus it is not in base to base contact and cant be hit in close combat unless assaulted.

 

Note the last sentence of the rule is in two parts ( '-' separated), the first halve is rules the second is fluff not a statement that it is in close combat.

 

the only time unfriendly models can get within 1" of each other is in the assault phase, or rules that specifically say they break this rule from the BRB p11 paragraph under "models in the way"

 

hope this clears this up

 

edit: grapple page reference and spelling

[DarkGuard]

That's a sound reading of the rule timmytool. The way we were reading it is that it doesn't refer to the Dread using the grapple, so it would stop using it, but then if he rolled really high that would suggest it keeps moving past it if we take the Dread out of the equation. It also seems the fairest way, because if you hadn't deep striked you'd want to assault the vehicle for the extra attack, and you would be able to as it's now only 1" away. Of course if you came out a Drop Pod you can't assault, simple. Seems the best way to play it, thank you.

[Tanhausen]

So much wealth of knowledge... it there anything we Brothers cannot find an answer to?

 

I'm often surprised by how most of us skim through the rules and just take things for granted... for once GW DID write it properly ;)

[Morollan]

for once GW DID write it properly :)

 

To be fair, who'd have expected that to happen? :D

[DarkGuard]

for once GW DID write it properly :)

 

To be fair, who'd have expected that to happen? ^_^

 

Unfortunately, going by C:GK, it's not a trend that will be following ;).

[Ming]

As a warning - a dread that drops from a SRaven could get into a situation where it grapples a vehicle to get it into his charge range....

[DarkGuard]

As a warning - a dread that drops from a SRaven could get into a situation where it grapples a vehicle to get it into his charge range....

 

But only if the SRaven didn't deep strike, because then it's like the Drop Pod :D.

[Descendant of Dante]

Your opponent was correct. It cannot assualt the turn it deep strikes.

 

Something i have wondered about though is if after pulling a vehicle closer it could then take it's melta shot with 2d6. Is this allowed or does "grapple" only apply after all shooting has been done?

[Leonaides]

nope- shooting is simultaneous so when your melta gun shoots the target has not been dragged closer yet.