justicar thawn

[undeadsoldier]

So I decided to use justicar thawn in a game yesterday and actually found him to be worth his points. Now this was my first game with him and I could see him fail miserably, but he is still something to add to the other players game-plan. I ran him with a squad of termies with a librarian and pretty much drove them to my opponents objective. the libby had all sorts of powers warp rift was def. VIP though that power eats stuff up... back on topic. after killing quite a bit I was finnally countercharged by th/ss termies (grrr). My rolling for the squad was pretty poor but when the squad all died...there was still thawn dead but still there. So turn four, I rolled under 4, crap I said he isnt worth it. Then turn 5 he did come back and this is what won me the game. I havent played enough with him to see his full potential but it really does come down to luck. I am also undecided on if I really want fearless termies, the drawbacks seem to out weigh the positives. In an already small army is it worth it to have a character like thawn? He can be awesome, but only if the dice goods are willing.

[TyrionTheImp]

Eh, I don't see him as being worth it. You're paying 75 points (in addition to the 40 points for the terminator as is) for WS5, I shall not Yield, potentially the ability to use Hammerhand and Force Weapons at the same time, and Fearless for the squad.

 

Stat boosts are always good, but he still only has 2 Attacks, it's a minor increase, but not really worth it.

 

I Shall Not Yield is an interesting ability, but more of a gimmick than anything, he gets back up, then what? He gets sniped by a lascannon or a melta, or a lance. Granted one model is easy to hide I just don't see it doing anything worthwhile that can't be easily countered.

 

Hammerhand and Force Weapons at the same time is interesting, so you can wound more easily with the Force Weapons, however, this can be done by attaching a OM Inquisitor in Terminator Armor with Psyker + Hammerhand, and you'd get more wounds, and Stubborn instead of Fearless for slightly more than Thawn.

 

Giving Fearless to 1 Squad isn't worth it, Fearless is only useful army-wide in small squad armies (like Deathwing for example).

 

Your last sentence basically sums it up "He CAN be awesome but only if the dice gods are willing", there are a lot of things that CAN be awesome IF we roll well, but that's NEVER something I would consider a good choice unless I can spam them to increase my odds of success. Reliability and redundancy are keys to success, one-off squad upgrades that could be game changing are not, especially when they cost 75 points.

[Massaen]

He is scoring mind you!

[Gentlemanloser]

Unfortuneatly, Thawn doesn't pass Fearless to the Squad, and is only Fearless when he's on his own. Also, he's bound by the units BoP rule, so can only use 2 powers when he's on his own as well.

 

:D

[Master_Matteo]

Unfortuneatly, Thawn doesn't pass Fearless to the Squad, and is only Fearless when he's on his own. Also, he's bound by the units BoP rule, so can only use 2 powers when he's on his own as well.

 

:wacko:

 

 

i may have missed this part of him, but wheres it say this?

[Ashe Darke]

It's a weird situation. You have a single model who is a part of the squad who is fearless and the rest who don't have it. There isn't really a ruling for this situation as far as I know. The rule about ICs not passing isn't the issue as he isn't one.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's the same with Arjacs Stubborn.

 

If the unit as a whole doesn't have the rule, the unit doesn't get it, full stop.

 

B)

[Hellgore]

uhm.... Thawn is no IC. He's the Justicar of the Squad.

 

edit: aah, ninja'd

[armbarred]

I see Thawn's Fearless much like Telion's Stealth. And my group seems to agree...

[Gentlemanloser]

Steath specifically carries over to the Squad.

 

Relentelss (see the IG gezzer), Stubborn (Arjac) and Fearless don't unfortuneatly.

 

The reason Thawn has it (alongside PML2) is that sometimes he's a single mini unit in his own right. That's when they come into play.

[Ashe Darke]

In friendlies I'm sure playing him that way will be fine though.

[Angelis Mortis]

I see Thawn's Fearless much like Telion's Stealth. And my group seems to agree...

 

The BRB disagrees with you and specifically says otherwise.

[Master_Matteo]

ok, so set aside the fearless issue, why cant he use 2 powers a turn? all the brotherhood does is say hes the guy who gets fried if things go bad right?

[undeadsoldier]

Well I'm actually glad he doesn't grant them fearless but I also agree he can use both powers. If you go second you'll getlast turn. This is how I won my game. He can't be sniped if u go last.and a lot of times it seems that one contested objective makes a difference. But so many pointsssss

[Massaen]

I see Thawn's Fearless much like Telion's Stealth. And my group seems to agree...

 

The BRB disagrees with you and specifically says otherwise.

 

No - this situation is unique - the BRB covers units and ICs... not 1 model units or upgrade models

[Gentlemanloser]

The FAQs for the IG dude and Arjac are quite clear. In addition, Upgrades characters aren't IC, so *don't* supply any rules of thier own to thier own unit. Only ICs can do that, for a small selection of the USRs. If the unit in total doesn't have the USR, it doesn't have it.

 

Stealth is different. Also clarified by Telions FAQ.

 

ok, so set aside the fearless issue, why cant he use 2 powers a turn? all the brotherhood does is say hes the guy who gets fried if things go bad right?

 

The BoP rule states the unit may use a single power per turn.

[thor1234]

The FAQs for the IG dude and Arjac are quite clear. In addition, Upgrades characters aren't IC, so *don't* supply any rules of thier own to thier own unit. Only ICs can do that, for a small selection of the USRs. If the unit in total doesn't have the USR, it doesn't have it.

 

Stealth is different. Also clarified by Telions FAQ.

 

ok, so set aside the fearless issue, why cant he use 2 powers a turn? all the brotherhood does is say hes the guy who gets fried if things go bad right?

 

The BoP rule states the unit may use a single power per turn.

 

so by that Argument, by taking Mordrak with a single ghost knight prevents him from casting a power????

no not right, the sqaud and Thawn/Mordrak cast powers seperatly as they DONT have BoP surley?

[Massaen]

Neither Mordrak or Thawn have the brotherhood rule so can cast what they like by them selves

[DeathKorpsman]

The FAQs for the IG dude and Arjac are quite clear. In addition, Upgrades characters aren't IC, so *don't* supply any rules of thier own to thier own unit. Only ICs can do that, for a small selection of the USRs. If the unit in total doesn't have the USR, it doesn't have it.

 

Stealth is different. Also clarified by Telions FAQ.

Truth.

 

ok, so set aside the fearless issue, why cant he use 2 powers a turn? all the brotherhood does is say hes the guy who gets fried if things go bad right?

 

The BoP rule states the unit may use a single power per turn.

This is where I have to disagree. Upgrade characters do not lose the character type when they are in a unit with more than one model (i.e. Mordrak when he takes 1+ Ghost Knights). BoP's states the unit can cast one power and counts as one psyker, to be sure, but Mastery adds the ability for any model with the Character type (which upgrade characters retain even if in a unit) to cast a number of powers up to their Mastery level.

 

My main argument broken down:

 

Mastery applies to any model with the Character type and the Mastery rule.

Brotherhood of Psykers applies to the unit that has it, but does not say it overrides Mastery.

Neither upgrade character (Mordrak or Thawn) in C:GK has the BoP rule and BoP doesn't say it extends to models that aren't listed as having it.

Mastery is not a USR that a character would apply to the unit, so isn't represented by previous FAQ precedent.

Upgrade characters aren't listed as losing their Infantry:Character type when part of a unit in any text I can find.

 

So, since Thawn and Mordrak remain Infantry:Characters (not IC's) when part of a unit, they fulfill the minimum requirement for using Mastery. The way I read the rule, Thawn and Mordrak can use their Mastery even if part of a unit, while the unit can cast one power separately off a random model. This meets the wording of both BoP's and Mastery.

 

Honestly, Brotherhood of Psyker's is one of the most horribly written army-wide rules ever. It doesn't make a distinction for IC's, other than saying you can't use their Leadership for Psychic tests. Since an IC joined to a unit is considered part of a unit, they clearly can't use more than one power a turn due to BoP's. Also, if you combat squad, the half squad that doesn't have a Justicar or Knight in it can't use Psychic powers anymore since they don't meet either of the two conditions (Justicar is alive and in the unit, Justicar is dead) for doing so. Now obviously that isn't the way it is supposed to be played, but they could have easily written it that way with a half competent rules team.

[Massaen]

Which is what i said ^_^

 

The BoP rule applies to the unit and a random model will suffer PotW - Thawn and Mordrak do not have this rule and have their own mastery - they also activate thier NFW seperatley...

[Gentlemanloser]

Think about unit rules for a second.

 

There are two options with BoP.

 

Either;

 

1) The unit loses BoP when joined by Mordrak/Thawn, as (like Stubborn, Fearless, etc) the whole unit doesn't have the rule. That mean that Mordak/Thawn can cst thier power/s, but the unit is no longer a Psycher.

 

2) The unit keeps BoP, so Mordrak/Thrawn have BoP extended to them as they are a normal member of the unit. As such they cannot use thier individual PML, as they are restricted by BoP, and can only use thier PML when they become a single mini unit in thier own right.

 

If it's 1, then this really breaks how Grey Knight units are supposed to work. The Unit loses access to thier Psychic Power, or potentially *all* Members of the unit can indiivdually cast thier units power. Thir Force Weapon activations then also become individual, and limited to 1 wound. They all class as a single Psycher for a Culuxes/Mindstrike misile, or none of them do.

 

GK units *need* to have BoP. If you look, all GK units have BoP, and all GK individual minis have a PML. The confusion is that Mordrak and Thawn can be both a single mini *and* a multi mini unit, without being an IC.

 

It's not possible for a GK unit to retain the BoP rule, while a single member of that unit doesn't have the rule but uses a PML instead.

[Massaen]

I fail to see why your unit can not retail BoP - when an IC joins a unit do they lose it?

[Gentlemanloser]

But it's exactly that. Mordrak and Thawn aren't ICs, they are normal members of the unit.

 

Consider this also.

 

Thawn is upgraded from the units Justicar, and is called Justicar Thawn. Is he the Squads Justicar? It would seem logical to say yes. In which case either;

 

1) He's classed as the units Justicar, and bound by BoP, and the unit can us it's single power, as normal.

 

2) He doesn't have BoP and regardless of whether the unit retains it or not or whether Thawn is the units Justicar or not, as the unit no longer has a Justicar with BoP, they cannot use any powers.

 

The same can be said for the Ghost Knights, who *never* have a Justicar or Keeper of the Flame. If you wanted to argue that route, even with Mordrak, and BoP, they still don't have a Justicar or Keeper, so the whole unit can *never* use a Psychic Power.

 

As said above, well written rule, it isn't. :D

 

The only way to make this work, without open a whole can of worms, is to assume Mordrak and Thawn count as the units Justicar/Keeper, and that the unit retains and uses BoP.

 

When Mordrak/Thawn become single mini units in thier own right (when all Ghost Knights are dead/Thawn ressurects), then they get ot unleash thier own Psychic Mastery Level.

[Ashe Darke]

Massaen's point wasn't about about Thawn of Mordrak. They were about adding models that ARE IC's, like a Libby or a GM because they don't have BoP.

[Gentlemanloser]

I know, which has no bearing on the topic. :D

 

Edit: altohugh if you want my view on that specific question, then no. The unit doesn't lose BoP when joined by an IC, as the BoP rule has aboslutely no effect on attached characters. In any way, what so ever.

 

It's still not related to the topic at hand though. ;)