justicar thawn

[DeathKorpsman]

I know, which has no bearing on the topic. :D

 

Edit: altohugh if you want my view on that specific question, then no. The unit doesn't lose BoP when joined by an IC, as the BoP rule has aboslutely no effect on attached characters. In any way, what so ever.

 

It's still not related to the topic at hand though. ;)

Actually, it makes a big difference and is related because of the distinction between upgrade and Independent Characters. BoP does not exclude IC's from the "unit" being able to only use one Psychic power. Since it doesn't exclude them, and you are making the argument that BoP extends to models that don't have the rule, then IC's must also be bound to the one power a turn limit when joined to a unit of GK's.

 

But it's exactly that. Mordrak and Thawn aren't ICs, they are normal members of the unit.

 

Consider this also.

 

Thawn is upgraded from the units Justicar, and is called Justicar Thawn. Is he the Squads Justicar? It would seem logical to say yes. In which case either;

 

1) He's classed as the units Justicar, and bound by BoP, and the unit can us it's single power, as normal.

 

2) He doesn't have BoP and regardless of whether the unit retains it or not or whether Thawn is the units Justicar or not, as the unit no longer has a Justicar with BoP, they cannot use any powers.

 

The same can be said for the Ghost Knights, who *never* have a Justicar or Keeper of the Flame. If you wanted to argue that route, even with Mordrak, and BoP, they still don't have a Justicar or Keeper, so the whole unit can *never* use a Psychic Power.

 

As said above, well written rule, it isn't. ;)

 

The only way to make this work, without open a whole can of worms, is to assume Mordrak and Thawn count as the units Justicar/Keeper, and that the unit retains and uses BoP.

 

When Mordrak/Thawn become single mini units in thier own right (when all Ghost Knights are dead/Thawn ressurects), then they get ot unleash thier own Psychic Mastery Level.

You are making a bunch of "must be one of these..." statements, which I find frustrating because I find that it is not any of those. Justicar Thawn is not logically only one of your two options. He is a character that can't leave his unit, but that doesn't mean he is bound by their rules. He isn't a Justicar, despite having the rank, because he can use his psychic abilities independently. His unit would then default to testing on a random member for its one power and for Perils, as per BoP's.

 

This slew of "upgrade characters" that GW has been adding to the game don't really follow the rules for Upgrade Characters from the BRB, which were originally intended to cover things like unit Sergeants. Instead, these resemble the rules for IC's with Retinues on pg. 48, with the caveat that they don't become IC's when they leave the unit. I say this because unit Sgt's are listed under the "upgrade characters" heading in that section but no Sgt. I know of has the Infantry:Character type... ever.

 

However, from a strictly RAW standpoint, BoP cannot extend to Mordrak and Thawn unless you are also willing to concede that it extends to any model that joins the unit to include IC's. Keep in mind that BoP's does not make any allowances for attached IC's to NOT gain this rule. Furthermore, BoP's doesn't say, anywhere, that it extends to models that do not have the rule and since it isn't a USR, but rather a Codex rule, you have to take it at face value. Despite Thawn and Mordrak not being IC's and being upgrade characters for units that they can't leave, they still aren't bound by BoP's because they don't have the rule and so could not cast powers at all unless they also had Mastery, which they do, so they can.

 

The unit does not have to lose BoP for Thawn and Mordrak to use Mastery. They work in concert quite well, just as most people are probably playing IC's with Mastery when they are joined to the unit. The unit of GKT's or Ghost Knights make their test off a random model (not Thawn or Mordrak, since they do not have BoP's), while Thawn and Mordrak test separately since they have Mastery and the ability to do so. This is not a case of USR's and what works backwards and forwards between characters and units, or who loses what when it comes to USR's. This is a codex rule that some models in a unit have and some do not and how they work together. They don't have to be mutually exclusive and there is plenty of room for argument since the FAQ could go either way, but logically I can't see how one overwrites the other when the rules can work perfectly well together as they are written (despite the sloppiness of the rule in general).

[Gentlemanloser]

The rules for SRs extending to Characters or not are significantly different for ICs and UC.

 

As shown by various FAQS.

 

Are Mordrak or Thawn a full memebr of the GK unit? Can they be removed like an IC? If they *are* part of the unit, how can the unit use BoP wihtout including Mordrak/Thawn.

 

Pertinent parts of the BoP rule;

 

A Grey Knight unit can use one Psychic Power each turn. The unit counts as a single Psyker

 

How many Psykers does the *unit* count as if Mordrak/Thawn aren't bound by BoP?

 

A Grey Kight unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or the unit (if he is dead)

 

Ghost Knights never have a Justicar or KotF (And therefore thier Justicar/KotF can't ever be dead), so cannot use any Leadership score for Psychic Tests. Therefore they fail every Psychic Test they are called to make.

 

The same for the Perils test. It's only resolved versus a random member if the Justicar/KotF is dead. In both cases, this can never be the case.

 

The *only* way to make the BoP rule work, is as above. You assume Mordrak/Thawn count as the Justicar/KotF for thier unit, and thier PML only comes into play when they are on thier own.

 

Otherwise BoP breaks down and the unit can't use it's powers.

 

The same for a Terminator Unit if Thawn isn't thier Justicar.

 

However, from a strictly RAW standpoint, BoP cannot extend to Mordrak and Thawn unless you are also willing to concede that it extends to any model that joins the unit to include IC's.

 

You don't. As the rules for SRs crossing over to ICs or not are totally different from them effecting UCs or other memebrs of thier own unit.

 

Edit: Removed the 'U's, as granted these ren't Universal Special Rules, just Special Rules. ;)

[Massaen]

WHile they can not leave the unit they still do not have the BoP special rule but a mastery of their own. The rules tell us that if the justicar or KoF are not in the unit then use a random knight. This is exactly what is happening here.

 

Justicar thawn is not a Justicar - like a terminator sarge in C:SM is not a terminator and can not be upgraded using terminator options.

 

I just don't get how this is not clear myself

[Gentlemanloser]

No, not 'not in thier unit'. Alive or Dead. The Terminators Justicar isn't Dead. Becuase if Thawn isn't it, they never had one to die.

 

BoP does not exclude IC's from the "unit" being able to only use one Psychic power.

 

That's becuase ICs are never part of the unit. They just join it sometimes.

[DeathKorpsman]

No, not 'not in thier unit'. Alive or Dead. The Terminators Justicar isn't Dead. Becuase if Thawn isn't it, they never had one to die.

 

BoP does not exclude IC's from the "unit" being able to only use one Psychic power.

 

That's becuase ICs are never part of the unit. They just join it sometimes.

Actually they must be in the unit, since BoP only extends to the unit. If you combat squad or upgrade to Thawn, the unit might not have a living or dead Justicar because the unit didn't start the game with one. BoP still does not make any special exclusions for IC's and so if seen from your view of extending to models in the unit that don't have the rule must apply to them too.

 

Frankly, play how you like, but this is clearly a different situation than special rules covered for UC's in other FAQ's. Why? Because the power is a solo power that doesn't affect the squad or any other aspect of the game that covers the squad as a whole. The unit is one psyker and uses one power a turn off a random model. Thawn or Mordrak are a character, thus they are able to use a power over and above what their squad can use and count as a psyker in their own right. This means the squad counts as having two psykers, just as if an IC was attached but not because an IC is attached. It counts as two because Mastery says it counts as two.

 

Show me any rulebook or FAQ page that tells us that Upgrade Characters lose the unit type Infantry:Character and I'll concede my argument. As long as UC's don't lose their type (which they don't), they benefit from Mastery as it isn't a rule that affects their unit in any way by their having it and can work within the context of the army's other special rules despite your assertion (without basis) that it can't.

 

Lukas the Trickster doesn't pick up Berserk Charge when he is part of a unit of Bloodclaws, nor does his Last Laugh stop working just because he is in the unit and none of the other models have it. Mastery doesn't have to say it works in spite of BoP's, since BoP's doesn't insist that it is over-ridden and doesn't - anywhere - even imply that it is extended to models in the unit that don't have the rule. It only says it works the way it does for models that do have the rule.

[Gentlemanloser]

How many Psykers does Thawns unit of Temrinators count as? (Edit: Soz, you mentioned this. 2. In that case that breaks BoP, as the *unit* counts as a single Psyker. ICs don't matter here, they're totally different, and don't need to have BoP apply to them).

 

Unless of course, Thawn doesn't count as being part of the unit...

 

If he does, then the unit *must* count as a single Psyker, per BoP.

 

The unit is one psyker and uses one power a turn

 

Yes, the *unit* does.

 

Is Thawn a part of the unit in full? Not an IC temporarily attached to the unit?

 

Lukas the Trickster doesn't pick up Berserk Charge when he is part of a unit of Bloodclaws

 

BerserkCharge doesn't mention the *unit*, only that Bloodclaws get it. The arguement here would be Lucas isn't a Bloodclaw, so that's all fine.

 

Show me any rulebook or FAQ page that tells us that Upgrade Characters lose the unit type Infantry:Character

 

As we're talking about the SW 'dex anyway, look at Arjac and Lucas. Both upgrade charcaters like Thawn (and Mordrak). *Neither* have the unit type Infantry (character).

 

That's becuase they cannot become a single mini unit in thier own right.

 

Unlike Mordrak and Thawn.

[genesis_rhapsod0s]

Every squad must have a Justicar somewhere. Even if they Combat Squad they still have a Justicar. As the Codex says "Upgrade their Justicar to Anval Thawn," he is the squad's Justicar. Therefore, BoP applies to him (the UNIT's Justicar). He in himself can cast up to two powers beyond that, having PML 2. So, the Squad can activate their force weapons (INCLUDING THAWN), and then Thawn can cast Hammerhand on the SQUAD (with all Perils tests against Thawn). His Mastery Level never goes away under any circumstances. Serving as a squad's Justicar and as himself are not mutually exclusive things.

 

EDIT: Grammar.

[Gentlemanloser]

Therefore, BoP applies to him

 

He in himself can cast up to two powers beyond that, having PML 2.

 

Contradiciton in rules. If BoP applies to him, then BoP's "Unit may cast a single Power per turn" appleis to him.

 

Every squad must have a Justicar somewhere

 

Ghost Knights?

[genesis_rhapsod0s]

Therefore, BoP applies to him

 

He in himself can cast up to two powers beyond that, having PML 2.

 

Contradiciton in rules. If BoP applies to him, then BoP's "Unit may cast a single Power per turn" appleis to him.

 

Every squad must have a Justicar somewhere

 

Ghost Knights?

 

It is not a contradiction, he is himself and part of the unit.

 

And obviously Ghost Knights are an exception, however, if we're going to be super technical, their Justicar is dead too, so you would use the squad's Leadership for the Psychic test.

[Gentlemanloser]

If he's a part of the unit, and is a part of the BoP rule, then he is include dint he resticiton that the *unit* can only use a single power per turn.

 

There's no way around that.

 

As for Ghost Knights, its possible they don't and have never existed, and are pure psychic contructs made form Mordraks guilt. As such, they still never had, nor never will have a Justicer (or keeper of the flame if we want to be techincal), so can never use a Psychic Power. Ever.

 

Badly written rule is badly written.

[genesis_rhapsod0s]

If he's a part of the unit, and is a part of the BoP rule, then he is include dint he resticiton that the *unit* can only use a single power per turn.

 

There's no way around that.

 

As for Ghost Knights, its possible they don't and have never existed, and are pure psychic contructs made form Mordraks guilt. As such, they still never had, nor never will have a Justicer (or keeper of the flame if we want to be techincal), so can never use a Psychic Power. Ever.

 

Badly written rule is badly written.

 

 

While I agree that the Codex is about as clear as mud in places, I'm going to have to disagree with your analysis of Thawn. He is in *two* units at the same time; the larger unit as a Justicar, and in his own mini-unit. Just like IC's can be part of a unit and use their own things, the same applies to Thawn. I am unsure how you've concluded that the rules cancel each other out; there is nowhere (even in the BRB) that says Upgrade characters sacrifice their Unique status until certain conditions are met.

 

Also, I wholly disagree with your interpretation for the Ghost Knights. I would contend that they are actually the souls of those lost in that epic battle way back when, and thus they did have a Justicar at one point (also, there has never been a Grey Knight to not have a Justicar at some point in this universe, but I'm not about to discuss fluff here).

 

I'm not going to tell you you are flat out wrong, you're making good points. However, I feel like this whole issue is making a mountain out of a proverbial mole-hill. Matt Ward is far from the most talented Codex writer, but it's easy enough to derive what was intended. I will wait for a FAQ to clear this issue with finality, but I feel it is ultimately unnecessary.

[Gentlemanloser]

He is in *two* units at the same time; the larger unit as a Justicar, and in his own mini-unit.

 

A nice interpretation, but there's absolutley no rules to back that up.

 

You're either a single mini unit, a multi mini unit, an IC on its own or an IC attached to another unit (that isn't a single mini unit).

 

The confusion here is that Mordrak and Thawn can be both a single mini unit (like the Sanguinator and Meph), and part of a normal unit.

 

But not at the ame time.

 

Just like IC's can be part of a unit and use their own things, the same applies to Thawn

 

Upgrade charcaters are always part of the same unit. Otherwise, we start ruling that Arjac and Telion are also thier own units as well, which isn't going to be pretty.

 

Also, I wholly disagree with your interpretation for the Ghost Knights. I would contend that they are actually the souls of those lost in that epic battle way back when, and thus they did have a Justicar at one point (also, there has never been a Grey Knight to not have a Justicar at some point in this universe, but I'm not about to discuss fluff here).

 

Fluff is in the eye of the beholder. <_< The could also be Dameons, being warp denisons. And Mordrak is the first Grey Knight to ever be plagued by them.

 

Who knows. It's ambiguous on purpose.

 

Still fluff =/= rules. Ghost Knight units *never* have a Justicar, so thier Justicar cannot be either Alive, or Dead. So they can't ever use BoP and therefore can't ever use a Psychic Power, or activate thier Force Weapons.

 

but it's easy enough to derive what was intended

 

I feel it is as well.

 

Mordrak and Thawns PML applies when they are *special* single mini units in thier own right. As thier individual army lists describe. When the are part of thier unit, they represent that units Justicar and work as BoP describe.

 

:D

[genesis_rhapsod0s]

He is in *two* units at the same time; the larger unit as a Justicar, and in his own mini-unit.

 

A nice interpretation, but there's absolutley no rules to back that up.

 

I will need to do a little research to find a precedent of this, but I see no rules saying he *can't* be in both units simultaneously.

 

I still want to say that players can use Thawn to activate Hammerhand and the Force Weapons at the same time, but I'll concede that point. For now.