IA: Dragons of the Void

[Omega Striker]

Hmmmmm.....

 

Maybe I am missing something fundamental, here.

 

Help me understand, because I want these marines to do two things well: augmentations and their chapter fleet. Elsewhere I read about the Iron hands who love augments plenty, and the Imperial Fists and Black Templars who are crusading fleets but are a little different from this chapter due to location. I focus on these two things and draw some conclusions, and I want to know if any of these individual ideas, that I feel are perfectly justified, are against the universe of 40k in general.

 

1. The Chapter loves augments

- they replace most of their body parts as they age

- the augments are actually better than the stuff (read:everything) they are replacing

- this makes them physically faster, more durable, and longer-lived (in the top tier, basically immortal due to total conversion and maintenance)

- they have extra space in their bodies, because the augments are more compact than the normal human/space marine vital organs (and in some cases are rendered unnecessary, like lungs, and the digestive tract being replaced with a plasma reactor, with the liver and other purification organs being rendered into one unit)

- although most here don't know how it is done, replacing organs is a matter of making a replacement that fills the same purpose. This means that everything that a space marine uses is replaceable. (the only organ we don't know how to replace yet are the gonads, but a space marine doesn't use those! :) )

- this means better, wider-spectrum hearing and sight

- Increased strength, and faster 'muscle' contractions, so faster and higher momentum punching and throwing, in addition to the increased weight of the arm being used in the punch. I don't have any rough descriptions of how heavy a space marine arm is, but comparing a guardsmen's size to a space marine's, I would say about 50-60 pounds of arm, plus the effect of the black carapace and the power armor, but we don't really have any lifting or pushing capacity of space marines, so the soft science fiction kind of leaves this ambiguous.

- instead of eating and going to the bathroom, they refill on plasma fuel on the ship, and when they get back, they flush their system and refill again. Average lifespan of one 'tank of gas' would be anywhere from 50 - 250 days, depending on exertion and attached weapons (pretty much just a shot in the dark, but based on Black Library descriptions of plasma weapons and then a little bit of bad math extrapolation from the tabletop and other BL references)

- this would make a marine (already a superman) into something like an adamantine statue, albeit hollow for the space of their rib-cage and vital organ replacements, but the rest would just be artificial muscle fiber, bones, and a re-worked black carapace for skin. Extremely durable, even when compared to a space marine.

- Their legs now run (no pun intended) on high concentration plasma energy, and are made of synthetic muscle fiber, so these marines can not only run for weeks on end, they jump higher and kick harder, too.

- The extra space (approximately the space between the bottom of the rib cage and the top of the hips) can be filled with extra ammo, extended capacity plasma reactor, battlefield trophies, or whatever. Imagine Bender from Futurama. He basically has a small closet where a human's vital organs would go. For those who don't know who I am talking about, here is the wikipedia article for that.

- This would also impact the ways this chapter wages war, and other cultural difference, but I am thinking that everyong is a little more lenient when it comes to the Chapter Cult and Combat Tactics than other parts of the IA. However, if you feel that a part of either of these is out of line, please bring it up.

 

I think a few of these conclusions are what are considered 'not fitting' with 40k, although this more to do with GW's lackadaisical approach to science in Warhammer than in anything I just stated here. Their soft science fiction is hard to explain, because, well, they just handwave and it's all okay. I want to apply logic and medical science to the augmentation process, but what is stopping me from doing that? Is it because GW said 'NO SCIENCE! JUST THE EMPEROR'S WILL!' ?

 

pant.....pant....pant.....

 

B)

 

pant.....pant....pant.....

 

Okay, rant over.

 

So, should I just drop the modern science approach to this? I don't want to, because if the augments are no better that a plain space marine, I will need to re-do this whole chapter. I want to leave them this way, but if I absolutely cannot do some of this, I will just let the chapter die and do a pre-heresy KSons army or something instead. I will do this again for the fleet, so we can get a little more specific with what I ma doing wrong there, too. Just take a crack at one of the above points so that I understand specifically what it is that is not in-universe. The "It doesn't work, Omega. It just isn't 40k." thing I simply cannot comprehend. They are space marines, who do an augment thing. That's all I have talked about in this post. I will get to the fleet a bit later, but now I gotta go make breakfast. My stomach hurts.

 

And thanks for all the help everyone has already given, especially Nightrawen and Octvulg. It helps me understand this crazy armpit science that GW uses, and it makes things interesting here on the internet.

 

I will start a 'what can and can't be done by a space marine fleet' debate later, for the express purposes of helping me understand what GW has done there, too.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Plasma is incredibly unstable, to power a Marine using this type of energy is no trivial thing and much like a Plasma weapon would result eventually in a Marine exploding.

 

The Iron Hands do not replace organs wholesale; doing so renders the entire transformation process pointless.

 

Hands, legs, and eyes are the most usual bionics, if a Marine is so damaged that he needs major augmentation then he would be put into a Dreadnought if deemed suitable.

 

Astartes already have better sight/hearing/senses, even before the addition of Armour Auto-Senses.

 

In ficition at least, an amoured Marine can dent tank armour - this is plenty strong enough already, why both with a further upgrade when they already have the ability to take out any resaonable foe?

 

Also, what feeds the brain - something that must remain biological?

 

It isn't that GW has a lax attitude towards science, it is just that it doesn't figure as a huge part of the whole - I imagine that when this universe was first created it was very much the Rule of Cool and not "How do we explain chainsaw-swords?!". The key to good Sci-Fi from a science perspective is to have a grounding in actual science that you can then believably branch off from - but to be honest, not many people would care for that even if it was the case.

 

 

It seems that all you want is Iron Hands Plus, and if your Chapter is so much better than them - with obvious connections to Mars if they have better tech than the Iron Hands - why haven't we heard of them already?

[soddinnutter]

Given how the plasma is going to be unstable maybe there should be another power source for the marines themselves.

 

Maybe a micro-fission reactor of the sort that adorns some of the better IG equipment and may or may not be used to power the Skitarii.

 

To make it more compact and lighter some of the radiation shielding could be stripped off of it. result is that the flesh must be replaced eventually as it gets radiation damaged.

 

similar to this chapter maybe. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=213427

[Omega Striker]

Okay, one of the things I did was take a general census of science fiction (specifically the area of bio-augmentation, the subject at hand) and then try to create a space marine chapter that could do all of those things. I see now that this was an error, and how to fix it.

 

I started with something outside the WH40k universe, and tried to bring it inside. As it turns out, the idea is too big to hold. So, we go about this a slightly different direction.

 

I would like someone to generally outline what is and isn't possible with techno-implants in the WH40k universe. I would like to know this because it was the first idea in my head, when I was imagining my chapter. What can and can't be done? If I could get a list that talks about the implants that are possible, or if someone wants to tell me where I can get a copy of Iron Hand somewhere on the internet, that would also be great.

 

The problem here is I do not know what is and isn't possible in the WH40k universe. I know about outside this, but not here.

 

Help me with my grimdark knowledge, brothers!

[Octavulg]

Why not break down what you're trying to do with techno-implants and we can suggest ways to make it work.

 

My own experience is that it's more about 'feel' than about anything concrete. Most 40K technology works that way.

[soddinnutter]

I would like someone to generally outline what is and isn't possible with techno-implants in the WH40k universe. I would like to know this because it was the first idea in my head, when I was imagining my chapter. What can and can't be done?

 

You can do anything with them.

 

Every part of a person could be replaced. Even the brain if you do it sequentially. And so long as there is just one spoonful of grey matter in there somewhere, it's legal.

 

Which is basically what you have already put down.

 

It's just the plasma-poweredness that is messing it up. It's not a power source. It's a state of matter. It takes energy to keep it in that state. Its a good way of messing someones stuff up if you throw a sealed container of it at them and then release the containment because all that energy is released at once.

 

Which is basically how Plasma weapons work.

 

Unfortunately breaking containment causes some of that heat to seep into the surrounding material of the weapon causing it to heat up. It gets too hot and the containment mechanisms stop working properly causing it to get hotter which cause the containment mechanisms to work less and so on and so forth. That's why they go bang on occasion.

 

There is no reason for the marines to have plasma containment devices incorporated into their artificial bodies at any time, ever. They could have the coolant used in the plasma weapons flowing through their mechanical veins, if some of the implants work better at a lower temperature.

[Omega Striker]

Ah, okay.

 

So everything I listed awhile back is just fine, because it can be done? (As a side note, it was not my intent to try and out-do the Iron Hands personally, but just be really good at implants in general)

 

So let me explore/explain/wonder/cry a little:

 

So in WH40k, is it fair to say that the techno-implants eventually replace the space marine implant glands (optic sensors replace occulobes, acid tank instead of belcher's glad, etc) in a way that surpasses them? I mean, what's the point of augments if they are not better than what they are replacing?

 

What would I use to power my near-total augmentation of a space marine, and would that power supply: 1. enhance the power armor (what with a larger power pack and all) and enhance the weapons (additional power like the armor)

 

Would it be possible to plug a marine into a vehicle more completely than a normal marine would be? I don't understand the 'plug in' process but I think it is something like The Matrix.

 

What about controlling a space-going vessel like a battle barge or my chapter's own Ark of Purpose? Is it the same as a rhino, only on a larger scale?

 

 

 

Also: a little bit about modelling and some ideas I have.

 

Since I like the ideas behind the chapter so much, I am thinking of modelling these 'so cyborg they are almost android' marines as assault and tactical troops but use the space marine bike base and rules.

 

I like the twin linked bolter and the extra toughness from the bike that space marine bikers get, as well as the speed. If I were to model something like a space marine wrapped in a ton of bike bits, with the twin linked bolters on one arm and a sort of shield on the other (or maybe just more armor for the toughness) and then just called them space marine bikers in all but model, would that be okay? Maybe I could work the wheels in as some kind of generator on the back (with appropriate Iron Man arc reactor glowiness) for a backpack expansion? Hmmm. I am tossing around ideas for this, and wondering what you all think? Could that work, if I modeled my marines as larger, twin linked bolter, extra toughness, faster marines?

 

Maybe I am trying to one-up everyone. Hmmm.

 

I will go and meditate on this.

[Octavulg]

Augments are (when you're not the Iron Hands, anyway), not as good as normal. But they have the major advantage that they beat not having what they're replacing. That's why they're usually used for injuries, and only the crazy Iron Hands do otherwise.

 

Furthermore, there were serious problems with what you were suggesting, at least back when it gave them weird-pseudo telepathy and involved completely replacing their skeletons. The one is just weird and silly, and the other is massively impractical. They cut out the guy's bones, then replace them all? That sounds...involved. Very, very, very involved. Especially when they get to the skull.

[Nemesor]

If augments are so much better, why would they bother making them Astartes in the first place? What makes your guys any different from elite skitarii?

 

In 40k background, lots of character do not like or trust augmetics. The reason for which is that in the decaying Imperium of Man, such machinery is often unreliable, and usually not as good as having a real limb/whatever. I seem to recall a soldier in the Tanith First with an augmetic jaw who had a lot of trouble speaking, and this would likely extend to most types of bionics. They're not going to work the same as the real thing, and that will take a long time to get used to when for most of your life you've been flesh-and-blood.

 

I admit that there are a few exceptions, such as the AdMech (but they're crazy machine-worshippers trying to bring themselves closer to their God), and the Iron Hands (again a bit odd, and First Founding, not likely to be seen to such an extent in later foundings).

 

It seems like you're trying to outdo everyone else in the setting, which is a big no-no when you're inserting your creations into somebody else's universe. That's why Star wars is such a mess these days, full of characters not made by Lucas trying to 1-up each other.

[Omega Striker]

Augments are (when you're not the Iron Hands, anyway), not as good as normal. But they have the major advantage that they beat not having what they're replacing. That's why they're usually used for injuries, and only the crazy Iron Hands do otherwise.

 

Furthermore, there were serious problems with what you were suggesting, at least back when it gave them weird-pseudo telepathy and involved completely replacing their skeletons. The one is just weird and silly, and the other is massively impractical. They cut out the guy's bones, then replace them all? That sounds...involved. Very, very, very involved. Especially when they get to the skull.

 

#1 Curse their imperial hides! Augments suck in this universe! They're only slightly better than the prosthetics we have now! IT"S RUINED FOREVER!

 

#2 Okay, people don't like the unity signal. It was way out there, and maybe I should just stick to built in voxcasters or whatever they are called.

 

#3 I talked about replaceing the skeleton above in a response to nightrawen, let me see.....

 

This augmentation process renders the implantation organs useless, and so they are removed, one by one, and given to new initiates to begin the enhancement process that prepares their body for augmentations that would kill a normal man.

- In case of some organs, impossible.

 

1. Which? Although I may be drawing from out-of-universe sources, all of the body's systems are replicatable.

Bones can be dissolved out of the body and replaced with metal implants much the same way that copper is mined in my home state. Acid leaching removes the bones, and a similar calcium/adamantine mixture is injected, and the body rebuilds the skeleton naturally. It would occur in steps, probably while the marine was in supersleep because of the incredible pain, but it can be done. You just need 2 things: an acid that works on the calcium substrate that is bones (while not dissolving the living tissue) and a calcium-based heavy molecule that the body could replace the calcium based mineral in the bones with. The calcium molecule would be the hard part, but since this is science fiction, I would like to say that they have both of these things. Fair enough?

For the brain, it's a matter of recreating the exact neural network that a person has in their head already. It's easy enough, and since the usual problems of not being able to learn anything are overcome by adding memory implants the regular way, that problem is resolved. In other sci-fi universes, like Rifts by Palladium Books, they have a neural network replacement process that replaces the brain but leaves the person unable to learn anymore (since the new network doesn't make connections like actual human neurons do). But my chapter already has a solution in this universe: memory augments. So end result: total cyborg, or now I guess they would be Androids.

What other organs do you consider impossible to replace? Or were those the two?

 

Among the most central of the Chapter's current augmentations is an accidental one. When an initiate is promoted to battle brother, his skeletal structure is replaced with a special metal, forged to very specific densities.

- Special metal? Phlebotinum, I suppose.

- It was asked before and I will ask again; How do you remove the skeleton?

 

1 & 2: see above!

Also, here is a few wikipedia articles to explain in more detail.

Copper Extraction

Osseointegration

Neural Networks

 

 

There is some information for those who hold the bones in the un-replaceable category. The first link is an explanation of how things can be mined from somewhere without having to go nuts with a jackhammer. It would be a small step (i.e. finding the right acid to use) to adjust this process to the bones. The second is a little bit of an explanation about mixing other, heavier, more durable metals with bones. And the last was a way to replace the brain, which was appropriate to the conversation then and it will probably fend off another argument now. In short, Everything Is Replaceable, even now (or in the near future) with modern science.

 

What I don't understand is how we can get from now, to 28,000 years from now (the great crusade) and develop all kinds of crazy things (faster than light travel should be more outlandish than augmentation to all of you) and then lose ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING in the next 10,000 years and go to the level where augments are actually worse than the space marine bio-implants that were developed by Emperor & Co. I mean, didn't they have awesome augments in the Emperor's day? What happened to all of those?

 

For all of the devoted servants of the emperor, I have a question. How does the space marine implants and 'super-izing' process make the marine stronger than what (supposedly) the adeptus mechanicus could make (a machine of comparable size and function) and be stronger than said machine.

Even if the space marine's body was altered to include a way to eat and digest diamonds, and then replace various body parts with them, that would still be weaker than several different kinds of processes to making tough, flexible metals. Even aircraft paneling (which is made from aluminum, one of the weakest metals) is stronger than human bones. So why would having adamantium (already an unobtanium itself, or whatever super element alloy/molecule/nano-forged nuclear lattice) bones be a disadvantage? The skeleton should be several times (read: thousands) of times stronger if we made a air-pocket filled, hollow replacement to perfectly replicate bones. If we went as solid as the steel in a sky-scraper I-beam, it would be much stronger still.

 

This is all conclusions I can draw having just the knowledge I do now. How do they fail in the distant, grimdark future so badly? I know that GW probably doesn't have a medical doctor or even an undergraduate med student there to answer questions about the body, but by the Emperor's neon underpants, I am not even either of those and I know this stuff. Why? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

 

Maybe the grimdark logic just hurts my brain.

 

I still figured if "there is only war" then the Imperium would not so casually discard one of the best ways to make a bio-engineered killing machine even faster, stronger, immortal, and without need to sleep, eat, breath, fight off diseases, avoid mutation, and avoid psyker corruption. (all huge problems for space marines) Why would they let that get away from them? I mean, necessity is the mother of invention, and I tried to make a chapter that would believe and practice that, outside of the mechanicus's watchful sight. If they can look at the way thier starships are built (and they inevitably must, because they have techmarines to do so) how could they not go "hey, this would make us better!" and start trying right away. I know the galaxy has fallen far, but I have not seen an instance where GW said that humans can no longer succeed by throwing enough resources and time at a problem. Rather, it still happens quite frequently (it's the entire idea behind the Imperial Guard). So why could my marines, suitably free of mechanicus control, and driven by psychotically isolationist paranoia, not try to make themselves all into mecha-marines with the above benefits? It's way less of a stretch than some of the other stuff that happens here (and I'm not talking about anything warp related, either).

 

pant......pant.....pant.....

 

Well, now I am suitably riled up because what I wanted to be the core of my chapter is now complete bull. Grrrrrrr.......

 

(shouts horrible curses in the Emperor's general direction for a few hours)

[Octavulg]

Augmetics are more durable. They're just less responsive and harder to maintain.

 

In regard to replacing the skeleton - that's great. Now explain how a bunch of people who view all technology as borderline magic came up with that, exactly?

 

EDIT: Oh, and what makes you think augmentics make people resistant to psychic corruption?

[Omega Striker]

Augmetics are more durable. They're just less responsive and harder to maintain.

 

In regard to replacing the skeleton - that's great. Now explain how a bunch of people who view all technology as borderline magic came up with that, exactly?

 

EDIT: Oh, and what makes you think augmentics make people resistant to psychic corruption?

 

 

Hmmm... Harder to maintain how? I figure if your arm rusts off, you just make a new one and bolt it in again. Is there something that happens to metal in the WH40k universe that i don't know about? (I know marines go into battle and get shot, and then there's the usual stuff like corrosion, but does the warp affect anything?)

 

If they worship/revere/honor their vehicles, their space ships, or whatever, wouldn't they want their brothers to become like them? If they walked like a dreadnought, had armor like a tank, and shot like a battle barge, wouldn't that be the machine god equivalent of Apotheosis? I figured culty magos would be all over that. Part of the religion is the search for knowledge, so understanding what they have would be a central feature, right? Rebuilding a ship for 500 years ought to give you an insight into how it goes together, right? They don't have to understand the theory behind it, they just have to know that screw A goes into hole B, and then make a smaller version.

 

As for the augments making people psyker resistant, that was more conjecture, really. I know less about how the warp works than I do about the technology here. Isn't the warp tied to a living person? If they were turned into an android (basically murdered and replaced as a super-slow pace, drug out for centuries) wouldn't they lose their presence in the warp? They aren't actually themselves anymore at the end of it, just a machine that looks and acts and speaks and remembers the same way as that person. I guess if machines have a presence in the warp, then so can these guys.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

As for the augments making people psyker resistant, that was more conjecture, really. I know less about how the warp works than I do about the technology here. Isn't the warp tied to a living person? If they were turned into an android (basically murdered and replaced as a super-slow pace, drug out for centuries) wouldn't they lose their presence in the warp? They aren't actually themselves anymore at the end of it, just a machine that looks and acts and speaks and remembers the same way as that person. I guess if machines have a presence in the warp, then so can these guys.

 

Chaos corrupts the mind, then the body follows... Marines "fall" because of a weakness of character - so an artificial mind wouldn't fall, but then they wouldn't be Astartes and AI are banned upon pain of sternest censure (see: Death).

[Shinzaren]

Just thought I'd jump in real quick here on the debate of augmentation. I read the whole IA (critique later; overall, not bad), and skimmed a lot of the responses. The one thing I did notice is that you brought up duplicating the neural structure of the brain, essentially creating a super advanced AI/artificial humanoid. This is most the dangerous and outlawed type of Techno-Heresy, and if ANYONE finds out that you are creating an artificial intelligence the AM will find and destroy you. Terminators (The Arnie kind, not the Armor kind) are pretty darn reviled in 40k :) Just thought I'd throw that in.

 

Moving on from artificial brains, I have to echo the sentiments of my fellow Liberites. Why even bother making marines if you have augmentations that are better than everything the marines become? Why not just take a 14yr kid and turn him in a cyborg killing machine? Also, looking at the general state of augmentations in 40k, they generally seem to be a last resort option. They are often shown as being temperamental, and difficult to maintain, as well as rather simplistic. They aren't super complex systems capable of duplicating and exceeding every organic variation, but are instead a cruder -albeit tougher- replacement for the missing organic part. Augmentations on the members of the Adeptus Mechanicus are a little different, but as you will notice, they are no longer even human looking or shaped by the end. Mechadendrite, which is always shown as being tentacle like, serves as the replacement for much of the AM initiates body.

 

While it is true that the most advanced bionic systems in the Imperium are capable of replacing and possibly exceeding the original organs and what not of the average citizen; Space Marines are already in possession of hyper-advanced organs and internal systems. Even the best augmentations and bionics would be very very hard pressed to replicate the technology that goes into making each Marine. Marines were designed by the Emperor himself to be the finest warriors mankind could ever produce. If the best way to achieve that was through extensive mechanical and bionic augmentation, why didn't he just do that? Organics are best, especially given Space Marines extremely advanced healing systems. Afterall, if a mechanical augmentation gets broken, it stays broken till it can be physically repaired by an expert. In the case of organics, the vast majority of wounds/injuries suffered can be repaired within seconds/minutes/hours/days of happening, solely through the bodies own healing.

 

As for the augments making people psyker resistant, that was more conjecture, really. I know less about how the warp works than I do about the technology here. Isn't the warp tied to a living person? If they were turned into an android (basically murdered and replaced as a super-slow pace, drug out for centuries) wouldn't they lose their presence in the warp? They aren't actually themselves anymore at the end of it, just a machine that looks and acts and speaks and remembers the same way as that person. I guess if machines have a presence in the warp, then so can these guys.

Partially true. But even the cold steel and metals of the Imperium are vulnerable to Chaotic influences. Just look at Obliterators, who are literally fused with their mechanical parts by the warping power of Chaos. Or Chaos Titans, whose metal skins writhes with the unholy power of Chaos. While the soul is the what is truly corrupted, the argument that your marines are soulless depends on the definition of a soul. Even the Necrons have souls, albeit ones imprisoned within their mechanical bodies. In 40k the Soul seems to be less of an abstract concept, and more a cold reality. I think the only way to get rid of a soul is to die and lose it, or have it stripped from you in some horrible rite or ritual.

[Omega Striker]

Actually, Shinzaren, that helps a lot. Marines are super-biological anyways. Okay.

 

So if I wanted to keep my ideas, would I have to jump ship into the Mechanicus, and say something along the lines of "We can make super-warriors as good as any space marine?"

 

Drat. I thought the idea was really good. I will admit to having to just through a lot of WH40k hoops (you know, the kind that are on fire, have teeth and tentacles, and shout inane babbling while trying to suck your soul out) to get the space marines the way I want them to.

 

I know from reading the Octaguide and other guides that getting a relic from the Dark Age of Technology is a poor plot device choice, but that is really the only option left to me to do this. Having marines commit mild tech-heresy is okay, but the stuff I am proposing is seriously out of the water. Having my marines play out beyond the reach of the Astronomican is seriously suspicious, as well. In short, this could never happen in the universe.

 

 

 

But I am okay with that. And, although the IA wasn't revered as the new gold standard for IA's, I still really like the chapter where it is at. (I am still updating the IA, so bear with me) I also like the modeling ideas that this has brought up, and the playing with the color scheme, and learning all about the universe of WH40k. I consider this IA a success. Maybe next time, I will make some angry IF-derived marines. Who knows?

 

I would like to thank everyone who helped, especially those who gave the really long, in depth explanations I asked for. Although my IA is and will probably remain a terrible model for others to follow, I will keep it mostly like it is. I may make some changes if someone comes along and says something inspirational, but not much will change.

 

Thanks again, and hope to be back with another, more reasonable, chapter! Semper Liberus!

[Octavulg]

DAoT stuff beyond the Astronomicon is probably OK. The Imperium being OK with it, OTOH, probably isn't.

[Banelord]

Actually, Shinzaren, that helps a lot. Marines are super-biological anyways. Okay.

 

So if I wanted to keep my ideas, would I have to jump ship into the Mechanicus, and say something along the lines of "We can make super-warriors as good as any space marine?"

 

 

The whole “Augmentation” is not really a bad ideal but I’d say it’s from the wrong direction. Personally, I would change the reason why they use “Augmentation” , maybe out of necessity instead of using them to better themselves. Their could be a flaw in their geneseed, which results in vitial organs/limbs failing, risking the marine unable to fight or dieing, which the risk of it happening increases as the marine gets older. To keep the marine “fighting fit” they start to replace the organs/limbs with lesser but adequate replacements. The amount of “Augmentation” could vary from marine to marine, some have none while others have lots. The Iron Warrors replace mutated limbs with cybernetic ones, I know they are tratiors but I can't see why a loyal chapter can't do the same thing. Just an ideal hopes it helps <_< .

[soddinnutter]

Or maybe they lost the ability to recruit. Mutation of the gene-seed has caused 100% tissue incompatibility with 100% of the entire human species so far discovered.

 

But they Need to continue the fight for survival. Those worlds won't save themselves and if they don't, who will?

 

The only answer the can think of?

 

Cybernetic counterparts to mimic the changes that an Astartes must endure.

 

This would mean that they would have to recruit from older stock as you don't stick implants in a body that is still changing shape. Also there will have to be a whole host of psychological exercise because mental compatibility is going to be more of an issue than biological compatibility, as there is no new genetic code to be incompatible with.

 

Being out on the edge of the map would also work in your favor as the only time they are going to come in contact with the Official Authorities is to hand over samples of non-functioning gene-seed.

 

The Mechanicus may notice something is not quite right with it but the number of new Marines in the Dragons doesn't seem to have fallen notably so it obviously works. It just shouldn't be used in latter foundings.

 

The only problem for the Dragons with this arrangement is that the gene-seed samples to send off are a very finite resource and they are getting to the end of what is in the ice box. They have about ~500 year worth left. They can pad this time out to about ~570ish with excuses, bad paper-work and bribing officials to look the other way but after that they had better be a long, long way away when the Cog-boys find out what they have been doing for the last few thousand years.

 

They would need some form of help from the Mechanicus to acquire the knowledge and skills needed to accomplish all this but that's not really a problem. Fringe brotherhoods and isolationist sects within the ever-feuding Mechanicus are employable for the right price and maybe there was a small relatively unimportant little order of tech-adepts who specialised in military cybernetics and saw the advantages of attaching themselves to a Chapter for protection.

 

Of course what you would end up with is a Chapter of extremely high performance elite Skitari that are spiritually Astrates. But you would have to be very close to them to tell the difference.

[Omega Striker]

Of course what you would end up with is a Chapter of extremely high performance elite Skitari that are spiritually Astartes. But you would have to be very close to them to tell the difference.

 

This.

 

Also, about your Mechanicus sect idea, would it be possible for me to find a sect of angry, upset with their Arch-Magos, want to get off a planet really really badly, willing to exchange knowledge for protection, tech-cultists obsessed with integrating weapons into the body? That sounds reasonable, and I think there is more variation in the workings of the Mechanicus than there are in the Astartes, right?

 

 

If my chapter had that, as well as a new 'voice of the machine' in the form of a sentient ship (kind of like the second grey knights novel Dark Mechanicus) then would I be able to have my Skitari Marines? A fanatic body of tech=priests, led by an avatar of their god, were used for chaos, but why not for a renegade chapter?

 

 

 

That is good, I think. If I had that backing up my space marine level troops, that would let me have the awesome fleet as well as the terminator marines in terminator armor. I will think on this, and work some more on the actual IA, which I have neglected for a while. But can anybody help me understand the mechanicus and why a small coven of tech-priests would want to be away from a forge world? I know violent, destructive misunderstandings occur frequently in the WH40k universe, could that be a 'just cause'?

[Banelord]

Don’t know much about Adeptus Mechanicus, but here is a link: Mechanicus

 

 

I suppose they could be survivors of an Adeptus Mechanicus exploration Fleet, after being left on their own for years they go rouge. After the Dragons rescue them they pledge their service sort of thing. But this would all have to be kept secret, if the Machanius and The Inquisition found out this would all be seen as traitorous. :P

[soddinnutter]

...terminator marines in terminator armor...

 

Yo dawg, sow we heard you like Terminator; So we put a Terminator in yo' Terminator so yo' can Exterminate whilst yo' Exterminate. -Brother Egzibit of the Order of The Upgrade of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

Reasons for leaving the Forgeworld/Enclave and starting over on the edge of the map with a load of really big men whith heavy weapons.

 

You are sick of the micro-managing of the local Fabricator General and want a bit of freedom.

You heard the minimum wage is slightly higher on another planet.

You are a puritan brother/sisterhood and the new Magus is not. Someone has to go and it's not going to be him.

Adepta Sororitas Convent next door keep throwing bricks through your shrine window.

Complete misunderstanding over experimentation with a new type of Warp-Drive. Incidentally Ganymede is no longer inhabitable.

Someone cut the funding.

That money was just resting in my account.

You supply high class implants to the guard. several regiments you supplied had to be put down due to Chaos Corruption. A complete coincidence but now no one wants to do business with you.

The local branch of the Adeptus Astra Tellepathica checked the Emperors Tarot and leaving now is a good omen.

You are a naturally nomadic branch and so are the Astartes. As you are both going to wander you may as well seek safety in numbers.

You are Tech-Magus Frankyn-Styne and you and Adept Igor need somewhere to hide from the mob.

You are descendants of an Explorator Fleet that suffered engine failure and have spent the last 700 years crawling back to the nearest world with an Astropath. Chance encounter in the deeps with a Chapter Fleet who had a spare engine, givne how large space is there is no way that that was an accident.

 

Or some combination of the above

[Omega Striker]

Yo dawg, sow we heard you like Terminator; So we put a Terminator in yo' Terminator so yo' can Exterminate whilst yo' Exterminate. -Brother Egzibit of the Order of The Upgrade of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

SIGGED!

 

Reasons for leaving the Forgeworld/Enclave and starting over on the edge of the map with a load of really big men whith heavy weapons.

 

You are sick of the micro-managing of the local Fabricator General and want a bit of freedom.

You heard the minimum wage is slightly higher on another planet.

You are a puritan brother/sisterhood and the new Magus is not. Someone has to go and it's not going to be him.

Adepta Sororitas Convent next door keep throwing bricks through your shrine window.

Complete misunderstanding over experimentation with a new type of Warp-Drive. Incidentally Ganymede is no longer inhabitable.

Someone cut the funding.

That money was just resting in my account.

You supply high class implants to the guard. several regiments you supplied had to be put down due to Chaos Corruption. A complete coincidence but now no one wants to do business with you.

The local branch of the Adeptus Astra Tellepathica checked the Emperors Tarot and leaving now is a good omen.

You are a naturally nomadic branch and so are the Astartes. As you are both going to wander you may as well seek safety in numbers.

You are Tech-Magus Frankyn-Styne and you and Adept Igor need somewhere to hide from the mob.

You are descendants of an Explorator Fleet that suffered engine failure and have spent the last 700 years crawling back to the nearest world with an Astropath. Chance encounter in the deeps with a Chapter Fleet who had a spare engine, and given how large space is, there is no way that that was an accident.

 

Or some combination of the above

 

I think I will have to choose some combi-reasoner from those given above. I will return when I have more time.

[Pentence]

Im totaly digging this. The whole adapt to your circumstances thing and the simple but elegant explination to their salamander gene not mutating is a nice touch. Im all for bio augmentation especialy since it is so shuned by other astartes makes you wonder if they were 'touched' by the void dragon >.>

 

Im working out my own IA so i was curious as to where you drew inspiration.

[Omega Striker]

I think I will choose the following reasons for joining with the wandering tech-priests, and put it into a plot form for literary function's sake.

 

1. micro-cult loves augmentation, and is tolerated by local magos

2. local magos gets promoted, new magos doesn't like them

3. new magos sends resources elsewhere, micro-cult can't do with less

4. launches into void with small explorator fleet, small attachments of biologis, explorator, and secutor

5. adventures in space!

6. adventures/search for resources goes poorly

7. DotV find battered fleet, have fleet and forge ship

8. deal is brokered, alliances made, space marines protect and supply new magos's, in turn the mini-cult provides tech and repair

9. PROFIT!

 

So that's basically the idea. This does put the kibosh on my AI, though. Oh well. They are a means to an end after all.

 

 

EDIT:

 

@Pentence

 

Well, I drew inspiration from a couple places, really.

 

There are three major ones, and then a couple of little tidbits here and there from many things.

 

The first major inspiration is the movie Tron Legacy. I watched it the other day and I really like the paint schemes that I could base of that movie and the general techno-punk feel of the movie I thought was pretty sweet. The focus on what to do with technology was a moral question that the movie asked, and I answered with a loud "HELL YEAH!" The Wikipedia for it is here. It launched the whole chapter idea in the first place.

 

The second major influence was the terminator series, specifically the third and fourth movies. For non-terminator buffs, those are the most recent, called Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines and Terminator: Salvation. I really liked how these movies, and the franchise in general show what is possible (human body wise) to replicate with technology advanced enough. They have a method for replicating the human skeleton with robot-assisted micro-surgery, but I chose a slightly different method for these marines. You can read a bit about it here.

 

The third major influence was the Rifts table-top RPG game published by Palladium Books. It's a futuristic dystopia much like WH40k, although not nearly as grimdark and not nearly as far into the future. There are several different technologies that are only theories today, but I figure much of what the Rifts universe has is what the Dark Age of Technology in WH40k would have. There is powered armor, cybernetic intelligence, psychic powers, strange extra-dimensional beings, super-humans, gods, immortals, dragons, aliens, a super-military colony on the moon, and just loads of really cool stuff. It was a table top RPG I loved to play with friends back in high school, but I haven't been able to get a group together to play in a long time, so this may just be me pining for better days. Read about it here.

 

So that is a brief blurb on my influences. Aside from WH40k, which is the main influence and the reason why we are all on this board! :D

[Paradill]

A brilliant idea, one which has proven yet again the pure, unrestricted diversity of the human imagination and the worth of having an imagination at all.

 

Here's my issue: The technology of the Imperium is in decline, over ten thousand years technology has become nigh on magic to the human inhabitants of the galaxy. At the height of imperial power, when the Astartes were on their great crusade and even before they left the solar system, why didn't the Emperor make all Astartes this much more efficient in the first place? Because it's heretical, silly and impossible in-universe.

 

Honestly, I genuinely think it is a brilliant idea, just not fitting with the pre-established fluff.

 

Paradill