Joasht Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I have a spare Land Raider lying around (and possibly getting another LRC tomorrow), so I thought I'd open this thread to discuss about the Land Raider (all variants). The initial knee-jerk that many people (myself included) had following the codex release was that: 1) LR's (of all variants) are too expensive in an already-low-model-count army. 2) Stormravens are better. While I am inclined to agreeing with point number 1, given that TDA units are super difficult to shift around short of deepstriking (I hate deep striking with a passion, even with DoA on my BA-counts-as DIY chapter), car(tank)-jacking a Chimera from a poor Henchmen unit, or forking out massive points (and big bucks) for a good transport. All that said, what do you guys think about Land Raiders in a GK army? Or should I just keep my Land Raiders for my usual army where they can be put to good use shifting TH/SS Terminators/massive Death Company squads/etc around? Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 The only time I'd use a LR (outside of Apoc) is to see the faces on people when I roll up a Psyflame backed Reedemer! S7, AP3, Templates of doom! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor =D= Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Woo! Finally get to lay down some of my expertise with the Grey Knights. 1) The low model count is irrelevant. The Gks ALWAYS have a low model count and to try and reverse that is futile. And what your paying for isn't just a "good" transport, its an "Awesome" transport. Able to shuffle around your GKs and deal some damage. Despite what a lot of people say LRs are still hard to kill. Way I see it is if your gonna transport your elites shouldn't you use the elite transport? 2) Haven't used a raven yet and in all honesty I don't plan to so someone else will have to cover this point. =]D[= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I've used one in my last game (first game with the new GKs, a 2000pts game vs IG). I used a Standard LR , because I wanted to have the two TLLC. It fared relatively well, serving as a bunker for some termies on an objective. My opponent never managed to get a meltagun inside 12" as my two TLLCs and rifleman dread made sure no chimera or chimera-based vehicles got close or survived. In retrospective, while it made for an impregnable force on an objective, it was a bit overkill. While GKs have always been a low-model-count army, the paradigm have shifted. With the previous codex, it was a good strategy to hide your models in a LR. Now, I feel every turn not shooting is a waste. For that same price, I could have gotten 5 more termies with another psycannon, which would have done almost the same damage vs AV12 vehicles. Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thanks for the replies thus far. 1) The low model count is irrelevant. The Gks ALWAYS have a low model count and to try and reverse that is futile. And what your paying for isn't just a "good" transport, its an "Awesome" transport. Able to shuffle around your GKs and deal some damage. Despite what a lot of people say LRs are still hard to kill. Way I see it is if your gonna transport your elites shouldn't you use the elite transport? Actually in a sense it is very much relevant. Less models means that each loss you take counts for more, and the LR is a model that can be taken out with a single well-placed shot by any melta, lance or S9+ weapon. The points not spent on a LR could be used for more guns and more bodies. The only thing here is, whether or not its worth the cost and risk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Behold The Mighty Redeemer spewing forth holy promethium to purge the heretic A marine bbq, whats not to like :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Behold The Mighty Redeemer spewing forth holy promethium to purge the heretic ;) A marine bbq, whats not to like :D Unfortunately, since the new SM FAQ you cannot (hickory) smoke and flame at the same time. It just hasn't got the same flavor anymore :P Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Templarius Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 My Draigostar coming out of a Redeemer hasn't disappointed me yet. Also, Redeemer is pretty nasty to armies that love to hug cover. S6 AP3 just decimates. To be honest, you'd rarely even need Psyflame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearden441 Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I used a storm raven in a 2000 battle earlier today and it did its job well (transporting my squad of 6 paladins and librarian) to the front lines. While I used a fairly cheap loadout (TLMM and TLAC with psyammo) it didnt win its points back in the typical sense, it soaked up a ton of fire and with a 3+ cover save (with flatout movement and shrouding) along with the option to shoot one weapon, it makes for a great choice. Also remember that it has fortitude as well so there is a great chance to shake off shaken/stunned results Just wanted to touch on how much of a fire magnet this model is..... basically it absorbed 8 dark lance hits and 2 blaster hits over two turns once it came in allowing my rhinos to move into position along my refused flank. Without taking that fire the game would have been very different. While I did loose the game, it came down to a roll of 1d6 and a 4+ cover save which I failed and lost 1 objective to none on the 7th turn - if the game ended any of the turns before it would have been a win for the GKs. just my two cents on the abilities of the SR EDIT - also, if you want flamer goodness, you could drop a dread with TL Heavy Flamer and NDF with flamer and psyflame ammo.... this could potentially wreck things in cover (I will be testing in my next game) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianjc Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 My Draigostar coming out of a Redeemer hasn't disappointed me yet. Also, Redeemer is pretty nasty to armies that love to hug cover. S6 AP3 just decimates. To be honest, you'd rarely even need Psyflame. I was kinda wondering if the +1 str would be worth it on the flamestorm cannons. They instagib T3 units but S7 won't make a difference over S6 on T4. The only real benefit would be the possibility of glancing av13 and wounding S5 on a 2+. But at that range psybolts on the assault cannon or taking the multi melta would be better choices. And both of those together would cost the same amount of points as the psyflame upgrade. I agree that the redeemer, at least at close ranges, is a better choice than the vanilla raider or crusader. The crusader is gimped by the psybolt ammo. I really like the idea of the redeemer moving flat out until close to the enemy and letting out a purgation squad with 4 incinerators or psycannons. They'd be cheap with incinerators and they are the only unit in the book that can carry a teleport homer which would be extremely useful to get all your troops on the battlefield without foot slogging it. Also you'd still have one heavy support choice for a rifleman dread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Redeemer cannot move "flat out", in the rules sense, but perhaps you just meant in the vernacular? V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 The beauty of the Crusader is if you want to run a large squad in terminator armor. Otherwise I think the Stormraven is a better choice. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2750807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionTheImp Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Here's my 2 cents on LR's. What are Land Raiders most afraid of? Melta. What does Melta need to do to be effective? Get close. How do they get close? Well, you either run forward and they run forward and you meet in the middle, or they block you and Deep Strike in melta next to your land raider with a garbage unit and blow it up, giving what's inside something stupid to charge. How can we negate these issues? 1. Use Godhammers. Long Range keeps you out of melta range and from getting blocked. Make them scoring, with either Termies, or GKSS. 2. Warp Quake > Deep Strikers. Got a problem with Deep Strikers? Strike Squads have the answer. Since you're trading out your Heavy Support Slots where the valuable psyflemen come in, it's best to have similar roles filling that slot, and Godhammers are great for that. Of course, you'd have to build a gunline-esque army to really use them, it is the "best" way to use Land Raiders in GK, as you can effectively remove the weaknesses they have. Crusaders and Redeemers HAVE to go into mid field where Melta is prominent, and any smart opponent can block and kill easily, no matter what they could be carrying a smart opponent can outplay you and make it so they can only charge a crap unit and then get shot up. If you want something to transport your ridiculously wasteful deathstar unit, go for the Stormraven, it's faster and isn't as prone to Melta-death, but if you really want to use Land Raiders, try the Godhammer in the back field, it'll annoy the crap out of your opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2751330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 You cannot make Land Raiders scoring. They cannot be taken as a dedicated transport for any unit in the GK Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2751428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 He meant by putting some scoring unit inside... Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2751437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Doi, so he did. Nevermind then.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2751448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianjc Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Redeemer cannot move "flat out", in the rules sense, but perhaps you just meant in the vernacular? V Yep, sorry about that. Have the guy inside or the raider itself rev the engine really loud :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2751558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Here's my 2 cents on LR's. What are Land Raiders most afraid of? Melta. What does Melta need to do to be effective? Get close. How do they get close? Well, you either run forward and they run forward and you meet in the middle, or they block you and Deep Strike in melta next to your land raider with a garbage unit and blow it up, giving what's inside something stupid to charge. How can we negate these issues? 1. Use Godhammers. Long Range keeps you out of melta range and from getting blocked. Make them scoring, with either Termies, or GKSS. 2. Warp Quake > Deep Strikers. Got a problem with Deep Strikers? Strike Squads have the answer. Since you're trading out your Heavy Support Slots where the valuable psyflemen come in, it's best to have similar roles filling that slot, and Godhammers are great for that. Of course, you'd have to build a gunline-esque army to really use them, it is the "best" way to use Land Raiders in GK, as you can effectively remove the weaknesses they have. Crusaders and Redeemers HAVE to go into mid field where Melta is prominent, and any smart opponent can block and kill easily, no matter what they could be carrying a smart opponent can outplay you and make it so they can only charge a crap unit and then get shot up. If you want something to transport your ridiculously wasteful deathstar unit, go for the Stormraven, it's faster and isn't as prone to Melta-death, but if you really want to use Land Raiders, try the Godhammer in the back field, it'll annoy the crap out of your opponents. Though survivable, annoy is the key thing it does. You get 2 reroll shots of lascannon. I think that's an amazingly low amount of firepower for the price tag. You see you pay money for a LR to be a transport. This argument basically says, don't use them to transport anything. LRC and LRR are very survivable and if someone has to dedicate units to killing them, then that's just fine with me. There are ways of protecting your vehicles from melta weapons, like those flamestorm cannons that tend to kill everything that gets close. The whole point of a LR is being a transport, by sticking it in the backfield you waste its potential. You risk less, but I don't think you win games by risking nothing. Of course, I play the Tau a lot and it doesn't matter how much in the backfield my LR's are, they still die just as fast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2751640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionTheImp Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I never said don't put anything in it, I said put GKSS or Terminators in it to make them scoring. I just don't recommend putting a deathstar in it that needs to get to close combat ASAP. It's a more reserved use of the Godhammer, but by no means don't take advantage of its Assault Vehicle nature, just use it a little less gung ho. Use it for counter charging, fire support, and scoring protection/mobility. It won't get blown up as fast and over the course of the game can probably make its points back rather than moving midfield and getting melta'd, or blocked by a transport or skimmer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2751680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor =D= Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Now that's how you use a LR! I've been saying that forever. If you properly play the backfield and use cover you can avoid the worst of the incoming fire. If your relying on AV14 to save you you will be disappointed, however if you keep your cover and still return fire you'll make the points back for sure. =]D[= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2752071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Templarius Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Just because your opponent doesn't get 2d6 with melta doesn't mean it can't blow up your SR. They need a 4+ to glance/pen, so they have at least a 50% chance to glance your SR with a single dice with melta from 12" if it is on a standard trooper. They don't even need to get within 6" to get double dice pen. Smoke+shrouding can make a LRR very survivable for a turn, and after that, you should be in range to deliver your deadly cargo. Armor 12 on the SR makes it just as vulnerable to everything as every other transport in the game, S9 & S10 will pop it in no time. Admittedly, that's been my experience, and my LRRs tend to last a good long while. Warp quake is quite nasty, just have a Psyback following behind your LRs, no worries about deep strikers with melta! Also, while a backfield TLLC-LR is a good objective holder, its doesn't exactly put out frightening firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2752078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 1. Use Godhammers. Long Range keeps you out of melta range and from getting blocked. Make them scoring, with either Termies, or GKSS. 2. Warp Quake > Deep Strikers. Got a problem with Deep Strikers? Strike Squads have the answer. Option 2 FTW. <_< Warp Quake has given new life to the venerable Godhammer pattern Raider. Without it, there's virtually no reason not to prefer the Crusader pattern, or even the Redeemer. But with Warp Quake, nobody can deep strike into melta range of your scoring land raider while it blasts away at distance. Strike Squads inside Godhammers are awesome, Awesome, AWESOME. If you want to deliver Terminators into combat, use the Crusader, Redeemer, or a Stormraven. If you want more long range shooting in your army, put Strike Squads inside of Godhammers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229264-land-raiders-and-the-grey-knights/#findComment-2752152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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