what are the space wolf play styles?

[Mr.darkness]

right, so i have been looking at the space wolves codex and obviously it is pretty competitive but i am wondering, what are the actual builds that people use.

i know of the razorback spam but what else is there? and are they competitive? are they suitable for all the vanilla builds? why/why not?

thanks for the replies

[Grey Mage]

Footslogging- lots of packs, on foot, usually supported by alot of scouts and maybe some speeders. Often mixed with:

 

Cavalry- lots of Thunderwolves and fenrisian wolves, using the extra charge range and fleet move to get in to CC ASAP.

 

Mechanized- Units in rhinos and landraiders rolling forward onto victory, often supported by long fangs, whirlwinds, and speeders. Razorspam is a variation of this, one I find that isnt particularly effective.

 

Drop Pods- Death from above, heavy on the grey hunters. Supported by fast moving units like bloodclaw bikers, speeders, and scouts.

 

You can mix and match any of these to suit of course. Some are stronger than others, particularly in a particular persons hands- we all have our own playstyles. A lone DP can help out a mechanized force, or a footslogging force, and a cavalry wing is often included in things because of their reach. *shrugs* its a matter of taste.

 

Then of course theres actual tactics used with these.... like rapidfire/counter attack, sit back and shoot, bumrush, covering fire and overlapping advances, etc. Those could each take a discussion, and everyone has a favorite.

 

 

I personally prefer a Drop Pod army.

[Wulfebane]

In regards to SW-specific composition, there's also the Logan Wing (all WG; Terminator-heavy composition) and the Canis army (essentially mentioned above as "cavalry") where taking either Logan Grimnar or Canis Wolfborn will allow for wolf guard or fenrisian wolves*, respectively, to count as troop types and in such circumstances are often comprised solely of said units.

 

I'm sure there's more that I'm not aware of, just two that I've come to notice.

 

 

*Note: Fenrisian wolves can never take objective markers, regardless of the "Wolf King" rule provided by Canis.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

1. Spammy

2. Fluffy

3. WAACy

4. Bashful

5. Mechy

6. Shooty

7. Choppy

[Leonaides]

1. Spammy

2. Fluffy

3. WAACy

4. Bashful

5. Mechy

6. Shooty

7. Choppy

8. Woolfy! :lol:

[Rain Finale]

Footslogging- lots of packs, on foot, usually supported by alot of scouts and maybe some speeders. Often mixed with:

 

Cavalry- lots of Thunderwolves and fenrisian wolves, using the extra charge range and fleet move to get in to CC ASAP.

 

Mechanized- Units in rhinos and landraiders rolling forward onto victory, often supported by long fangs, whirlwinds, and speeders. Razorspam is a variation of this, one I find that isnt particularly effective.

 

Drop Pods- Death from above, heavy on the grey hunters. Supported by fast moving units like bloodclaw bikers, speeders, and scouts.

 

You can mix and match any of these to suit of course. Some are stronger than others, particularly in a particular persons hands- we all have our own playstyles. A lone DP can help out a mechanized force, or a footslogging force, and a cavalry wing is often included in things because of their reach. *shrugs* its a matter of taste.

 

Then of course theres actual tactics used with these.... like rapidfire/counter attack, sit back and shoot, bumrush, covering fire and overlapping advances, etc. Those could each take a discussion, and everyone has a favorite.

 

 

I personally prefer a Drop Pod army.

 

Don't forget biker army a la littlbitz

[Schertenleib]

1. Spammy

2. Fluffy

3. WAACy

4. Bashful

5. Mechy

6. Shooty

7. Choppy

 

 

What's this?? Snow Wolf and the Seven Lists??

[Donutzot]

1. Spammy

2. Fluffy

3. WAACy

4. Bashful

5. Mechy

6. Shooty

7. Choppy

 

 

What's this?? Snow Wolf and the Seven Lists??

think its rather a sum of all the things he calls the different space wolf play styles when he plays against it

[Adarul Greystalker]

Mech is probably the most common archetype, but not necessarily the best or most valid. Mech armies are usually characterized by a core of mechanized grey hunters and long fangs with a rune priest (or sometimes more than one). Some commit fully to the fundamentals and build their armies completely or nearly completely out of these components, while others, such as myself, prefer hybrid mechanized armies with other elements to add tactical dynamism to a very solid core. This represents one of the main choices you'll have to make if you choose a mechanized army. How much hybridization do you want and what tactical advantages do your non-mechanized elements give you?

 

The other main differentiation between mechanized armies is how they choose to build their mechanized squads. Part of this pertains to long fangs and whether or not you want to give them transports or footslog them and whether or not you want to go straight missiles or mix up their weapons a bit. More importantly though, is how you will outfit your grey hunter packs. You'll have to choose between large rhino squads, small rhino squads, and razorback squads, and there's also the matter of weapons options. It seems that small rhino squads with melta/combi-meltas are pretty popular these days, but I myself prefer a mix of large rhino squads, usually with plasma/power fists, and small lascannons razorback squads with meltas.

[maverik_girl]

1. Spammy

2. Fluffy

3. WAACy

4. Bashful

5. Mechy

6. Shooty

7. Choppy

 

 

What's this?? Snow Wolf and the Seven Lists??

think its rather a sum of all the things he calls the different space wolf play styles when he plays against it

sarcasm.... doesn't always hit the mark :cuss

[Schertenleib]

1. Spammy

2. Fluffy

3. WAACy

4. Bashful

5. Mechy

6. Shooty

7. Choppy

 

 

What's this?? Snow Wolf and the Seven Lists??

think its rather a sum of all the things he calls the different space wolf play styles when he plays against it

sarcasm.... doesn't always hit the mark :)

 

 

Guess I'll just have to use it more often. ;) :D

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Drop Pods- Death from above, heavy on the grey hunters. Supported by fast moving units like bloodclaw bikers, speeders, and scouts.

 

You can mix and match any of these to suit of course. Some are stronger than others, particularly in a particular persons hands- we all have our own playstyles. A lone DP can help out a mechanized force, or a footslogging force, and a cavalry wing is often included in things because of their reach. *shrugs* its a matter of taste.

 

Then of course theres actual tactics used with these.... like rapidfire/counter attack, sit back and shoot, bumrush, covering fire and overlapping advances, etc. Those could each take a discussion, and everyone has a favorite.

 

I personally prefer a Drop Pod army.

 

....And then?

 

1. Spammy

2. Fluffy

3. WAACy

4. Bashful

5. Mechy

6. Shooty

7. Choppy

 

 

What's this?? Snow Wolf and the Seven Lists??

think its rather a sum of all the things he calls the different space wolf play styles when he plays against it

sarcasm.... doesn't always hit the mark :lol:

 

 

Guess I'll just have to use it more often. :D :D

 

Roll moar dice!

:)

[Logan230]

Oh Marshal, your not that sore I hope lol.

 

I find that I prefer mechanized lists. They tend to have 3-4 full Rhinos with 2 plasma packs with the balance being meltas. Two Trilas Predators, a Missile Long Fang squad, 2 LS Typhoons and everything else for flavor. I like this because if the dice go my way, I can effectively control from 12" to 36" of the board. The amount of fire power I can put out is definately something that my LGS winces at; I also take the concept of "ones a target, two is a threat" as my core belief in list building.

 

Once upon a time I ran a hybrid mech/ drop pod list, it proved effective until my friends adapted and decided they didnt want something in the back that scouts and dropping dreads could target. Other than those two I cant comment on the other styles. Granted I have seen flootslogging lists in tourneys and they were rather hit or miss when I saw them.

[Grey Mage]

Drop Pods- Death from above, heavy on the grey hunters. Supported by fast moving units like bloodclaw bikers, speeders, and scouts.

 

You can mix and match any of these to suit of course. Some are stronger than others, particularly in a particular persons hands- we all have our own playstyles. A lone DP can help out a mechanized force, or a footslogging force, and a cavalry wing is often included in things because of their reach. *shrugs* its a matter of taste.

 

Then of course theres actual tactics used with these.... like rapidfire/counter attack, sit back and shoot, bumrush, covering fire and overlapping advances, etc. Those could each take a discussion, and everyone has a favorite.

 

I personally prefer a Drop Pod army.

 

....And then?

 

 

And then, if the OP was interested in any of these I figured wed expand from there. One page cannot contain all the SW tactics Ive seen used effectively.

 

I tend to have 3/5 pods as Grey Hunters. Gives me solid troop options, plenty of boots and a good hit for any exposed infantry turn 1- or later from reserves. I keep my 3:2 emphasis on plasmahunter over meltahunters, but I take plasma pistols more often in both squads- they just get more use out of them from pods I find.

 

I rarely take TDA. If I do it tends to have a pair of shields, a couple combis, and a heavy weapon- depending on my mood Ill mix and match PA and TDA into the squad. Everyone gets something that ignores armor, points allowing. Ive found that since runic charms left, I cant do without the paired shields though... ugh.

 

Dreadnaughts tend to be my elite choices though. Heavy flamers- even if they were walking on Id take heavy flamers but from a pod its a must have- along with extra armor. Ill often run one with an assault cannon and another with a MM. WTTs are optional, and if I have the points to allow it venerable is always considered. This is the one place in my army Ill consider putting a deathstorm missile launcher on a pod.

 

Wolf Scouts- 0-1 pack, armed with a meltagun and a brace of power weapons, maybe a wolf priest, maybe not. Theyre a good buy for their points, and if it gets my opponent to worry about their backfield more than the skies... well more power to me.

 

Landspeeders- MM, MM/HF, and most of all- Typhoons. They really help increase the mobility of any army, and this is greatly emphasized with DPs. Add to that theyre on the board turn 1 and they really do provide some impressive supporting fire.

 

Long Fangs- Ill sometimes take a pack of these guys. Either deploy them at the start and let their pod ride in empty later to deny objectives or movement, or let them ride down turn 1 and run into a good terrain peice. That second option is something I use alot in DOW, or if my opponent has foolishly reserved everything.

 

Blood Claw Bikers- a small squad of these makes a great bodygaurd for a Rune Priest, and again adds a solid mobile reserve to the force.

 

Rune Priest- I like having these guys around. Throw him on a bike, maybe some meltabombs, and hit him up with Stormcaller and either Tempests Wrath or Murderous Hurricane. Turn 1 finds me turbo-boosting with stormcaller to help protect vulnerable GH squads.

 

Army-wide tactics:

If my opponent deploys in reserves this limits some of my alpha-strike capability, wich would be horrible if I counted on that for the win. In such cases Ill deploy my army on the table, or set up a mid-field base via running, and then use the first turns pods to limit their ability to come onto the board- 3 drop pods can cover alot of approaches.

 

Otherwise I often drop in Melta squads first, unless there exposed heavy infantry like terminators about, to take out artillery and highly mobile transports like LSS and Stormraven. Crippling their template weapons and slow them down helps balance the field for my soon to be footslogging force.

 

Indeed, the first couple turns is all about limiting my opponents mobility and removing his options for marine killing pie plates or highly effective killers such as dark reapers.

 

After that we see how it evolves. Focus fire on proven threats, begin consolidating forces towards hotspots or objectives.

 

Against heavily assault oriented armies Its not unknown for me to simply drop or deploy along my own board edge and make them eat fire as they come in. Later reserves, if theyre not just empty pods, can then 'ambush' oncoming units and/or remove backfield support -lootas, whirlwinds, havocs etc-.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I rarely take TDA. If I do it tends to have a pair of shields, a couple combis, and a heavy weapon- depending on my mood Ill mix and match PA and TDA into the squad. Everyone gets something that ignores armor, points allowing. Ive found that since runic charms left, I cant do without the paired shields though... ugh.

 

Wolf Scouts- 0-1 pack, armed with a meltagun and a brace of power weapons, maybe a wolf priest, maybe not. Theyre a good buy for their points, and if it gets my opponent to worry about their backfield more than the skies... well more power to me.

 

Landspeeders- MM, MM/HF, and most of all- Typhoons. They really help increase the mobility of any army, and this is greatly emphasized with DPs. Add to that theyre on the board turn 1 and they really do provide some impressive supporting fire.

 

Long Fangs- Ill sometimes take a pack of these guys. Either deploy them at the start and let their pod ride in empty later to deny objectives or movement, or let them ride down turn 1 and run into a good terrain peice. That second option is something I use alot in DOW, or if my opponent has foolishly reserved everything.

 

Blood Claw Bikers- a small squad of these makes a great bodygaurd for a Rune Priest, and again adds a solid mobile reserve to the force.

 

Rune Priest- I like having these guys around. Throw him on a bike, maybe some meltabombs, and hit him up with Stormcaller and either Tempests Wrath or Murderous Hurricane. Turn 1 finds me turbo-boosting with stormcaller to help protect vulnerable GH squads.

 

Army-wide tactics:

If my opponent deploys in reserves this limits some of my alpha-strike capability, wich would be horrible if I counted on that for the win. In such cases Ill deploy my army on the table, or set up a mid-field base via running, and then use the first turns pods to limit their ability to come onto the board- 3 drop pods can cover alot of approaches.

 

Otherwise I often drop in Melta squads first, unless there exposed heavy infantry like terminators about, to take out artillery and highly mobile transports like LSS and Stormraven. Crippling their template weapons and slow them down helps balance the field for my soon to be footslogging force.

 

Indeed, the first couple turns is all about limiting my opponents mobility and removing his options for marine killing pie plates or highly effective killers such as dark reapers.

 

After that we see how it evolves. Focus fire on proven threats, begin consolidating forces towards hotspots or objectives.

 

Against heavily assault oriented armies Its not unknown for me to simply drop or deploy along my own board edge and make them eat fire as they come in. Later reserves, if theyre not just empty pods, can then 'ambush' oncoming units and/or remove backfield support -lootas, whirlwinds, havocs etc-.

 

I have shared this before, but I think Scouts have a great ability to compel the enemy forwards via 'fear/threat', which reduces the distance they have to manoeuvre in, which seems golden for what essentially becomes a slow foot force after their superior deployment.

Nice.

 

Do you ever take HF on your Termies?

 

Interesting potential from the Fangs - you can actually get 'enfilading fire' if you drop them on your foes flank, providing you have something engaging them from the front. I think that makes taking two packs a good idea so they can deploy perpendicular to one another, with regards to where the foe is.

 

Do you have a small Greys pack to hold your home Objective, perhaps coming in from reserves?

 

Using the Pods to form a wall for your already on foot Greys is a clever idea, and stops Hordes from having unrestricted movement towards your men.

 

What do you do against Deldar, who can simply scoot away from where ever you land, or go all reserves, and come on away from your now foot Greys? I guess Tau, Bloods and Celdar can pull that off too, to some extent.

 

The reason why I keep asking this is somewhat based on discussions on The Eternal Crusader. Foot is the simplest way to play. Rhinos are a natural progression from that. Pods are 'weird' in that they are essentially a Foot force [with all the mobility and protection issues that implies] once they have landed, yet they have superior Deployment which can completely overcome that weakness. Imo, Pods are a far more challenging way to play 40K, as you don't have the protection that transports offer, nor the ongoing mobility [providing they aren't blown up]. With Pods, more than any other style of play, you have to plan ahead. They have infinitely variable potential before they deploy, much greater than the DZones of a conventional army, yet once the choices are made and the Pods deployed, they are restricted and even have the potential of being overrun as they don't have the protection of distance that the conventional army has. Also, I assume the Pod army is trying to restrict the enemies movement [especially if they are Meched up] with good Drops, otherwise the foe just ghosts away from them and starts shooting [or does it whilst moving, like the Deldar, etc.]

 

It is very easy for guys to buy Rhinos/Razorbacks and apply what they know about Foot into Mech lists. Pods are much more challenging and harder to grasp, leading to greenhorns buying Rhinos instead of Pods. Once they have started in the Rhino direction, that makes it even less likely that they'll get into Pods. People probably don't ask about Pods due to them being seen as too hard. So nobody talks about them, so nobody plays them, so nobody writes Tacticas about them, so nobody talks about them....

 

I think Greys are perhaps the best Marine for a Pod, and so if anyone should be amongst the leaders of the charge, it'd be the Wolves....

[Grey Mage]

Do you ever take HF on your Termies?

Sometimes. All 3 heavy weapons are viable on terminators, I tend to take assault cannons- theyre more flexable than the other options in my opinion. My Heavy Flamers are a staple part of the Dreadnaughts however.

 

Interesting potential from the Fangs - you can actually get 'enfilading fire' if you drop them on your foes flank, providing you have something engaging them from the front. I think that makes taking two packs a good idea so they can deploy perpendicular to one another, with regards to where the foe is.

The downside is that they lose a turn of shooting. However this is less of an issue due to many peoples notion of 'oh, well Ill just set up in reserves then'. This basicly gives me free reign to deploy exactly as I like- scatter permitting. If a heavy hand isnt needed turn one- say against less extremely mobile armies such as C:SM/C:CSM- its often worth dropping them early, otherwise they can come in later to help hunt down mobile units that might try to 'shuffle'.

 

Often however Ill just deploy them in cover as normal, and then drop their pods down to deny objectives or areas of movement.

 

Do you have a small Greys pack to hold your home Objective, perhaps coming in from reserves?

Rarely. I like to keep my deployment/reserves flexible to keep my options open- wich means larger squads in most cases. Why? Because the units about to be dropped, sometimes literally, into the teeth of the enemy. Larger units are more survivable.

 

That being said if Im tight on points and need to squeeze in another squad to make everything work than yeah, 5 men with a MG/PG in a pod are a fairly cheap way of getting in the 7nth of 9nth pod.

 

What do you do against Deldar, who can simply scoot away from where ever you land, or go all reserves, and come on away from your now foot Greys? I guess Tau, Bloods and Celdar can pull that off too, to some extent.

I chase them with Landspeeder or I rapid-fire their transports to death with plasma. One of the big things about fast transports is they have low armor values- for example even a bolter can take down a raider if Im lucky. Crippling enemy mobility is the #1 priority because it puts me on an even footing with them, only Im better prepared -atleast mentally- for the fight to come.

 

Tau are consistently a problem on one hand- mobile suits are harder to track down- but on the other hand their a joy to play against. Suits are handled by missile launchers and lascannons- or plasma fire in the case of the more static broadsides- due to their ability to one-shot even the toughest suit out there. Ive often had a salvo from my typhoons wipe out crisis teams, and their fast moving nature and long range couple together to let them avoid enemy fire until its time to strike. On the plus side, tau have no low AP templates to deal with, and few players use carbine firewarriors, wich are admittedly the worst foe I could face from them in masse- S5, lots of shots, stay just out of range while firing and they can pin me. Yeesh.

 

or go all reserves, and come on away from your now foot Greys?

This deserves special attention, because its the supposed easy trick to killing a drop-pod army and really, if your smart, its actually to the DP players advantage.

 

So, lets take a 'Mechdar' army at 1500pts. Were looking at 4-5 Waveserpents, 2 with Fire Dragons, 2 with Dire Avengers, 1 with Banshees or a Falcon with Harlequins and backed up by a brace of Fire Prisms, often lead by an Autarch and/or Farseer.

 

Example: Pitched battle/spearhead, Killpoints, they deploy everything in reserves to try and avoid the early game.

In wich case I set up fire support squads about 12-15" in from the board edge with heavy weapons a little farther back into the mid field. Heavy weapons means my Dreadnaughts and/or Long Fangs. I set up my GHs on the far side of their pods, spread out to give cover saves from as many angles as possible. As my opponent uses the autarch to delay their reserves to the late game I get most of my people onto the table- starting with 3 pods, the typhoons, and bikers in a normal 1500 match. Then, when they finally come out I hit the wave serpents. Either my opponent moves up to them, going about 12", in wich case theyre easier to kill or he tries to jump me. If he jumps me Im still at point blank range and his rear is either to the grey hunters or my heavy weapons denying the use of powerfields and opening armor 10 to my fire *and possible assault*. In my experiance I can down 3 of them reliably as they come in, leaving several their squads stranded and outgunned.

 

Now, its time to close up ranks- I gladly leave the drop pods to be destroyed by my opponent as my dreads come up to close with my Grey Hunters and my bikes move to provide support as required. Attempt to down one of the Fire Prisms at this point, and avoiding being to close to fire dragons at all costs, my typhoons move as required. On the rare event that the prisms are downed instead of transports they instead circle wide, trying to set up rear armor shots for the next turn. This gives me a battle line that requires the eldar player to close with if they want to snag more kill points, with a lethal range of about 24". Eldars heavy range is about 36", but a mechdar list lacks the heavy weapons to reliably kill vendreads and/or large covered GH squads at this range. That means they have to close, where my firepower can come to bare on them- or stay at range and duel with my heavy weapons.

 

 

When is it most effective for them to reserve vs. me? Dawn of War. 1/3 of games. This allows them to roll onto the battlefield at me turn 1. Sooo what do you do? Assuming you have to go first.

 

You dont drop. :o you say "But you haaave to drop!" and thats partially true- but your pods can come down empty if you like, and you dont have to drop willy-nilly without a purpose. Castle up verses opponents without artillery and make him assault your strongpoint. In objective games you place them close together, on your side of the board- its not hard to build a 'fort' about 12-14" accross with a couple Drop Pods and utilizing natural terrain to increase your durability. Then counter-drop once they do roll in. Take out large threats like Executioners and defilers with melta, land next to a horde-o-orks and tie up 30 boyz with a vendread. Etc.

 

Of course, I can answer specific questions better than just going 'well, here stuff is' cause itll give me a frame work. So please, by all means send me more.

 

I think Greys are perhaps the best Marine for a Pod, and so if anyone should be amongst the leaders of the charge, it'd be the Wolves....

Darn right. Id hate to think of trying to drop in footslogging assault marines, and if I was playing C:SM regularly Id have to go with a heavy-sterngaurd force, wich has its own issues. Templars actually have a decent capacity, with ML and PG crusaders in multiple pods and awesome dreads and dual-AC terminators.

 

With Pods, more than any other style of play, you have to plan ahead. They have infinitely variable potential before they deploy, much greater than the DZones of a conventional army, yet once the choices are made and the Pods deployed, they are restricted and even have the potential of being overrun as they don't have the protection of distance that the conventional army has.

Your right- plan ahead. At the same time they require a flexable mind because so much of your tactics will depend on the exact parameters of the scenario and the composition of your opponents force.

 

That being said the 'restriction' isnt as bad as youd think. In many cases the enemy will have to close with you aswell. Sure, you can run away from the DP force- but if you dont have an overwhelming amount of LR firepower youll need to come in and bring your weapons to bare on them- and a well made DP force will have its own guns trying to cripple you too.

 

Lastly- you have to know when to be a hero.

 

Sometimes you need to sacrifice a unit that will otherwise obliterate yours. That basilisk battery parked way in the back, the pair of Executioners with their IG screen, etc. Picking the right unit to counter it is one of the main keys and the main strengths to a DP forces victory- you have the options, make sure you leave the right ones open and you place them where you need them.

 

Its also the downside- if you make a mistake, or fluff it, the consequences stack up quickly. So- get it done.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Nice. :P

 

1] So how about other not-mainstream lists that also use non-conventional means, things like Daemons, Deathwing and Pod lists?

 

2] How would you fight that epitome of Rush lists, the Death-rolla Battle Wagon list?

 

3] Other lists of the old skool approach such as Nids and Orks [with Kanz] which are often thwarted by use of Meching up. Monsters and Kanz are quite killy against MEq.

 

+++

 

With these lists, and anything that compels you to deploy back near your own table edge, what do you do in Objectives games?

I know with Tau, it is generally a contest of his and a hold of mine, rather than me taking ownership of his as well. This is usually done with Piranhas or Fish/Hammerheads.

 

What do you do?

 

+++

 

Yes, Tau need something to counter s8 ap3 weapons. I think t5 will do nicely :o

 

On the small Greys pack, I was thinking of them being on Foot, although a Pod or Bolterback is fine too. Depending on what is needed, they'd come in from reserves so they take minimal shooting and be in good nick to hold your own Objective. Otherwise they can baby sit deployed Missile Fangs.

[Grey Mage]

1] So how about other not-mainstream lists that also use non-conventional means, things like Daemons, Deathwing and Pod lists?

 

Well, for starters, I try to go second. It just helps to not get my own style targeted at me.... though frankly, the same tactics you use as a pod list arent as effective as they are versus other targets, atleast not against my pod list.

 

Deathwing is easy. You drop in with low AP weapons- like my Plasmahunters- and you rapid fire the crap out of them. If they drop in on you you shoot them hard and hope to get reinforcements asap if you need them. Dropping a dreadnaught near your hunters helps on the counter-assaults.

 

Daemons? Daemons are in general also a good matchup. They lack alot of shooting- the things to watch out for are soul-grinders and screamers. The rest of the list has nothing going for shooting- wich means the best it can do is drop the best matchups it has against my units. Daemons being CC forces them to close- going either directly to my rapid-fire/assault range or going through 2 turns of shooting. Its always bloody, but superior firepower almost always wins out.

 

Nurgle I have little experiance against- in my opinion, having faced them on occassion, is that theyre not killy enough to be a real threat, and so their toughness doesnt significantly help the army save as expensive objective holders who still arent amazing at their jobs.

 

2] How would you fight that epitome of Rush lists, the Death-rolla Battle Wagon list?

In my standard 1500 Id drop down a Melta-hunter pack on one, or a MM ven-dread, and open them up turn 1. Id then open fire on the squad inside with dread mounted heavy flamer and some bolters. Alternatively, if they dont deploy far back Ill drop behind and open up 5 plasma and 14 bolters on their AV 10 tailpipes. Kind of depends on the terrain and deployment. The key is, once theyre out, to take out the squad now.

 

Raider Lists are similar- got 3 landraiders? I see 3 expensive one-shottable targets. The key is hitting them with the right unit. Use the Dreadnaught with MM vs the Lightningclaw heavy assault terminators. Back up with some plasma-hunters versus the honor gaurd, etc.

 

3] Other lists of the old skool approach such as Nids and Orks [with Kanz] which are often thwarted by use of Meching up. Monsters and Kanz are quite killy against MEq.

Hit them with an old school solution- chop the shooty and shoot the choppy. Cheap GHs are the staple of any successful SW list IMHO, and their numbers provide some padding vs the monsters. S8/AP3 is also good for taking down most nids like warriors et all or fragging large mob-o-gaunts. Plasma rapid firing actually tends to take 3-4 wounds off a T6 monster, and then you finish it off with a 1-2 wounds in CC if you need. Sure, itll take 3(ish) of my GHs with it- never feed them your Dreads- and thats far more than an even trade.

 

Kanz on the other hand you take down at range- AV 11/10 isnt hard to take out with typhoons. 9 of them is readily doable with plasma and missiles- the key is to not let them distract you from scoring units and large mobz who are looking for the charge.

 

With these lists, and anything that compels you to deploy back near your own table edge, what do you do in Objectives games?

Simple, I deploy the objectives back too :cuss. Seize ground is great- I can put a majority of the objectives near my deployment zone. Then I deploy on my end and shootem up.

 

If I cannot, I try to see if theyll put one in the midfield- and then I place 2 more in a more-or-less triangle towards my DZ. This way I can 'castle up' the midfield. Its not as good, but if its what you gotta do....

 

If they deploy them farther back, for support units to hold perhaps, Ill go along, placing one in my own area, and then drop the other as close as possible to one of theirs- allowing me to play aggressively if I want, or just move in to contest and drop scoring units in late-game if I dont need the backup.

 

I know with Tau, it is generally a contest of his and a hold of mine, rather than me taking ownership of his as well. This is usually done with Piranhas or Fish/Hammerheads.

 

What do you do?

Piranhas and Fish-runs? I kill them first of course. They start off with the army, and as highly mobile fire-support platforms theyre the first things I need to down. Then I move on to the 'local' units like fire-support-warriors and broadsides, etc. Ill drop a unit of hunters in late game to take one of my objectives if I havent made enough of an impression- hoping to kill the piranhas etc if theyre at that end, or hoping to contest the tau objectives if thats where Im having problems.

 

One of the tactics I have never seen used against me by tau, or similar fast+firebase armies is a refused flank with both objectives in one spot.

 

Itd be bad. Making me pick to kill their mobile units before theyre out of range and having to slow up to their firebase or take their firebase and hope my own mobile units will not go down like chucks mom. Never curse the gods for sending you foolish opponents :). Of course, I have thoughts on how to deal with it, but since it hasnt happened yet its just theory hammer.

 

Yes, Tau need something to counter s8 ap3 weapons. I think t5 will do nicely

Maybe with the new suits, personally I think they should have eternal warrior vs high strength weapons. *shrugs* well see how it goes.

 

On the small Greys pack, I was thinking of them being on Foot, although a Pod or Bolterback is fine too. Depending on what is needed, they'd come in from reserves so they take minimal shooting and be in good nick to hold your own Objective. Otherwise they can baby sit deployed Missile Fangs.

Its a thought. At the same time a GH pack comes in minimum of 75pts, and usually for babysitting duty as a 5 man squad were looking at about 100. Might as well take another Dreadnaught or landspeeder at that point.

 

Of course... fitting in another odd-pod is something I can always sell myself on.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

2] How would you fight that epitome of Rush lists, the Death-rolla Battle Wagon list?

In my standard 1500 Id drop down a Melta-hunter pack on one, or a MM ven-dread, and open them up turn 1. Id then open fire on the squad inside with dread mounted heavy flamer and some bolters. Alternatively, if they dont deploy far back Ill drop behind and open up 5 plasma and 14 bolters on their AV 10 tailpipes. Kind of depends on the terrain and deployment. The key is, once theyre out, to take out the squad now.

 

Raider Lists are similar- got 3 landraiders? I see 3 expensive one-shottable targets. The key is hitting them with the right unit. Use the Dreadnaught with MM vs the Lightningclaw heavy assault terminators. Back up with some plasma-hunters versus the honor gaurd, etc.

 

With these lists, and anything that compels you to deploy back near your own table edge, what do you do in Objectives games?

Simple, I deploy the objectives back too ;). Seize ground is great- I can put a majority of the objectives near my deployment zone. Then I deploy on my end and shootem up.

 

If I cannot, I try to see if theyll put one in the midfield- and then I place 2 more in a more-or-less triangle towards my DZ. This way I can 'castle up' the midfield. Its not as good, but if its what you gotta do....

 

If they deploy them farther back, for support units to hold perhaps, Ill go along, placing one in my own area, and then drop the other as close as possible to one of theirs- allowing me to play aggressively if I want, or just move in to contest and drop scoring units in late-game if I dont need the backup.

 

I know with Tau, it is generally a contest of his and a hold of mine, rather than me taking ownership of his as well. This is usually done with Piranhas or Fish/Hammerheads.

 

What do you do?

Piranhas and Fish-runs? I kill them first of course. They start off with the army, and as highly mobile fire-support platforms theyre the first things I need to down. Then I move on to the 'local' units like fire-support-warriors and broadsides, etc. Ill drop a unit of hunters in late game to take one of my objectives if I havent made enough of an impression- hoping to kill the piranhas etc if theyre at that end, or hoping to contest the tau objectives if thats where Im having problems.

 

One of the tactics I have never seen used against me by tau, or similar fast+firebase armies is a refused flank with both objectives in one spot.

 

Itd be bad. Making me pick to kill their mobile units before theyre out of range and having to slow up to their firebase or take their firebase and hope my own mobile units will not go down like chucks mom. Never curse the gods for sending you foolish opponents ;). Of course, I have thoughts on how to deal with it, but since it hasnt happened yet its just theory hammer.

 

I will just try to clarify what I was asking:

 

So what do you do if the Battlewagon Orks go second, and you have to Pod down half your units?

Where do you place them and what units do you deploy in the first drop?

 

Same with him getting 2 Objectives, and you just one, to place AND having a Horde list?

 

I want your 'oh fiddlesticks' thoughts on bad scenarios.

Things like alphastrike, etc. work well even for folks like.... me :cuss I want the how-to on the behind the eight ball [perhaps from the get-go] situations. :)

 

+++

 

Can you explain your never scenario? I am not quite getting what you are saying they are doing and then what you are doing in return.... :)

[Grey Mage]

One of the tactics I have never seen used against me by tau, or similar fast+firebase armies is a refused flank with both objectives in one spot.

 

Itd be bad. Making me pick to kill their mobile units before theyre out of range and having to slow up to their firebase or take their firebase and hope my own mobile units will not go down like chucks mom. Never curse the gods for sending you foolish opponents :). Of course, I have thoughts on how to deal with it, but since it hasnt happened yet its just theory hammer.

Can you explain your never scenario? I am not quite getting what you are saying they are doing and then what you are doing in return....

So, in the far left corner of their deployment zone they drop 3 broadsides, two dozen firewarriors, and 5 crisis suits in teams for sake of argument- in the far right corner they deploy a hammerhead and a squadron of piranha with small scoring transport, with stealth suits in reserve.

 

Now, I have to decide what to take out- if I hit the fire base I give up on taking down the hammerhead and piranha before they run- wich can cause me significant problems. If I take out the mobile units I have 4 turns of running to cross the ~4 foot game to their firebase. If I split, I might be able to get it- but I might fluff one or the other and be unable to inter-support.

 

Now, no one of those issues is a problem in and of itself. Together with a smart opponent they could make a wreck of me.

 

So what do you do if the Battlewagon Orks go second, and you have to Pod down half your units?

And theyre not on the field? Or are they? Makes a huge difference.

 

If they are on the field, Ive got two main options- drop back by my own edge and make them come to me, then encircle them in a couple turns or I can drop in and take out their tanks now. Usually, Ill do the latter- They might eat the units involved (usually one squad of meltahunters and a MM Dread) but the rest of my army will have an easier time of it by far. What makes the difference? The amount of support those battlewagons have. Meganobz I might as well just cripple and go- if they have alot of koptas and perhaps some hard boyz/burnas in a trukk I should probly deploy back as the amount Im hurting them wont be, in my opinion, enough.

 

If theyre off the field, oh boy- drop in, perilously close to the board edge, and use run to block off as much of it as possible. A 4" wide DP with a good run means I can cover about 4' of board. If its a scenario where I can deploy forward with bikes- like say, spearhead- I can cover the whole edge using their turboboost and 30 GHs. If Im not feeling lucky or cant pull it off, I deploy farther back and castle up- wait for them to come forward and try to cripple the transports with Speeders in the next turn or so before they hit.

 

 

Same with him getting 2 Objectives, and you just one, to place AND having a Horde list?

I put one objective as close to one of his as possible- and I mass drop and move in on it. Go big or go home is sometimes the best option. If nothing else Ill try to put it somewhere I can easily contest- with say my LF unit or speeders late-game.

 

Things like alphastrike, etc. work well even for folks like.... me :cuss I want the how-to on the behind the eight ball [perhaps from the get-go] situations. :)

Well the thing is, I think of all the problem matchups out there that teleporting GKs might be the worst, because their fast- but not easily crippled by dead transports. Drop them down accurately with a brother-captain and/or summon them, and the army retains alot of its mobility with jump troops, teleport shunts, and is god-awfully overwhelming in CC for my GH heavy forces. I get one turn to kill their units, and against a good opponent the matchups suck. Putting all my units in a castle though has serious drawbacks versus them, as all those powerweapons can multi-assault, and with the local ruling of +2A for falchions.... ugh.

 

Try to criple small squads, stay decently spread apart without stranding anyone, and play the objectives. If its KPs... well, go for the small squads, dreadknights, etc first anyways- its the best bet. Psycannons can hurt DPs, and that sucks, but atleast its not S5 vs rhinos *shudder*.

 

The upside is those armies are outnumbered by me, heavily- wich means I will have more volume of quality fire than he does, and likely more things coming in when I need them. This is good, very helpful.

[techmarine Azuris]

A trick with DP I've found (i usually have 5or7 at a100 then +2/500 more points) is to basically fill up their deployment zone so they one have a small place to come in from if they reserve everything.

This worked to hilarious effect Vs my mates mech BA, where i basically took out the trickle of squads as they came in and half the squads couldnt even make it on the board due to the lack of space ;)

[Niiai]

Thanks GM. I have alwasy wondered just how you do your drop pod lists:

 

I am a little surpiced there are not more Long Fangs though.

 

I always pictured a drop pod list something like this:

 

HQ

1 Rune Priest: Murderus Huricane, Living Lightning 100 (go into the grey hunter squad)

 

Elites:

1 Dreadnought 2 Autocannons, Drop Pod 160

 

1 Dreadnought Plasma Cannon, Flamer, Drop Pod 160

 

3 Wolf Guard, with 2 (Combi Melta/power fist) 1 (Combi melta/flamer and mark of the wulfen) 129 (go into the GH squads)

 

Toops:

6 grey hunters, melta, Wolf Banner, Drop Pod 140

 

7 grey hunters, melta, Wolf Banner, Drop Pod 155

 

7 grey hunters, melta, Wolf Banner, Drop Pod 155

 

10 grey hunters, 2 Plasma Guns, Wolf Banner, Mark of the Wolfen Drop Pod 220

 

Fast attck

1 Landspeeder Heavy Melta/Flamer 70

 

1 Landspeeder Heavy Melta/Flamer 70

 

Heavy Suport:

5 Long Fangs, 4 Missile Launchers, Drop Pod 150

 

5 Long Fangs, 4 Missile Launchers, Drop Pod 150

 

1 Whild Wind 85

 

That is 1750 points. If your oponent deploys off the map then drop the pods with the dreadnoughts and the long fangs turn one. If he deploys on the map deploy the dreandoughts, long fangs and whirldwind on the table and pod in the grey hunter squads.

 

I have not tryed this list as I only own 1 landspeeder and 4 drop pods. What do you think of it? (I would like some feedback before I sadle up and buy 4 more drop pods sometime in the future.) It has long range suport in the form of the long fangs and autocannons to counter mobilaty. 3 melta squads and 2 land speeders to opon transports and when they are open the whildwind can nuke whatever was inside.

 

what do you think, am I going in an odd direction with the list?

[Grey Mage]

I think that Long Fangs arent common so common in my DP lists because theyre static and the turn to setup can result in their destruction before they get to do much. Youve kept them cheap though, and that helps.

 

My main problem is the small GH squads. I know... people love having their wolf gaurd, but generally I like to have the option of using the special weapons on more than one turn. Not only that, but if Im hitting a unit with rapid fire when I drop I want it gone afterwords- as completely as possible. Sacrificing extra bolters doesnt help that.

 

The Whirlwind is a nice touch though. It shows up in my lists occaisionally too- solves alot of problems, but is an easy target since I cant babysit it in most situations. *shrugs* Good choice though.

 

MH on the Rune Priest will make up for lost bolter shots, and Living Lightning for lost plasma. I really do like having Tempests Wrath to screw with opposing deep strike and fast moving unit.

 

Im also not sold on the Rifledread. Against vehicles its the same as a rapidfiring plasma pack- and you have a decent LR fire from the longfangs, but it lacks alot of the initial hitting power by sacrificing the flamer. On the other hand it does open up some interesting tactical options- drop in one spot to contest, drop a transport elsewhere and use the GHs that dropped in their to wreck the squad, etc. I honestly havent tried this setup, and I think Ill need to.

[Niiai]

Wow Grey Mage taking advice from me, that's a new one. :-o I am humbeled.

 

I am a bit baffeled that you do not use long fangs and autocannons in your list. In my opinion the ekstra range would help. Of course, your option sounds like there usualy will not be a lott standing after the first inisial drop pods tutch down.

 

Is it more like this?

 

HQ

1 Rune Priest: Storm Caler, Tempest Wrath, Master of Rune, Space Marine Bike, 185

 

Elites:

 

1 Dreadnought Multi Melta, Flamer, Esktra Armour Drop Pod with deathwind missile launcher 185

 

1 Dreadnought Multi Melta, Flamer, Esktra Armour Drop Pod with deathwind missile launcher 185

 

5 Wolf Scouts Pack, CCW and Pistols + Mark of the Wolfen, Meltagun, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol 130

 

Toops:

10 Grey Hunters, Wolf Banner, Mark of the Wolfen, Powerfist, 2 Meltaguns, Drop Pod 240

 

10 Grey Hunters, Wolf Banner, Mark of the Wolfen, Powerfist, 2 Meltaguns, Drop Pod 240

 

10 Grey Hunters, Wolf Banner, Mark of the Wolfen, Powerfist, 2 Plasmaguns, Plasma Pistol Drop Pod 260

 

Fast attack

1 Landspeeder Heavy Melta/Flamer 70

 

1 Landspeeder Thyphon/ Bolter 90

 

Swiftclaw biker Pack: 5 Swiftclaw Bikers, 1 Swiftclaw Attack Bike, Multi Melta, Meltagun 175

 

1750 points.

 

 

***

 

As for the person who asked: "Do you ever take HF on your Termies?" I will have to say that after having run some terminators on pods I feel that it is by far the best option. It is only 5 points and it ads a lott of damadge! The Cyclone missile launcher is just to expensive, you are better of with more longfangs as you want the terminators to get stuck in. Loosing a cyclone is just horible in CC. Loosing a flamer is OK, but droping out of a pod and flame is just pure amasing!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

One of the tactics I have never seen used against me by tau, or similar fast+firebase armies is a refused flank with both objectives in one spot.

 

Itd be bad. Making me pick to kill their mobile units before theyre out of range and having to slow up to their firebase or take their firebase and hope my own mobile units will not go down like chucks mom. Never curse the gods for sending you foolish opponents ^_^. Of course, I have thoughts on how to deal with it, but since it hasnt happened yet its just theory hammer.

Can you explain your never scenario? I am not quite getting what you are saying they are doing and then what you are doing in return....

So, in the far left corner of their deployment zone they drop 3 broadsides, two dozen firewarriors, and 5 crisis suits in teams for sake of argument- in the far right corner they deploy a hammerhead and a squadron of piranha with small scoring transport, with stealth suits in reserve.

 

Now, I have to decide what to take out- if I hit the fire base I give up on taking down the hammerhead and piranha before they run- wich can cause me significant problems. If I take out the mobile units I have 4 turns of running to cross the ~4 foot game to their firebase. If I split, I might be able to get it- but I might fluff one or the other and be unable to inter-support.

 

Now, no one of those issues is a problem in and of itself. Together with a smart opponent they could make a wreck of me.

 

So what do you do if the Battlewagon Orks go second, and you have to Pod down half your units?

And theyre not on the field? Or are they? Makes a huge difference.

 

If they are on the field, Ive got two main options- drop back by my own edge and make them come to me, then encircle them in a couple turns or I can drop in and take out their tanks now. Usually, Ill do the latter- They might eat the units involved (usually one squad of meltahunters and a MM Dread) but the rest of my army will have an easier time of it by far. What makes the difference? The amount of support those battlewagons have. Meganobz I might as well just cripple and go- if they have alot of koptas and perhaps some hard boyz/burnas in a trukk I should probly deploy back as the amount Im hurting them wont be, in my opinion, enough.

 

If theyre off the field, oh boy- drop in, perilously close to the board edge, and use run to block off as much of it as possible. A 4" wide DP with a good run means I can cover about 4' of board. If its a scenario where I can deploy forward with bikes- like say, spearhead- I can cover the whole edge using their turboboost and 30 GHs. If Im not feeling lucky or cant pull it off, I deploy farther back and castle up- wait for them to come forward and try to cripple the transports with Speeders in the next turn or so before they hit.

 

I have felt having two firebases as Tau, even if they are not a mirror of one another, is a good thing. Orks cry out for flank shots and are all over you if you haven't shot well and/or move-blocked with Piranhas.

At least with the second fire base, part of your force can fire unrestricted and dodge getting multi-assaulted. Which gives the Ork general a dilemma, do I go after that small secondary fire base and if yes, with how much? If that fire base is mobile, like multi-tracker Railheads, the Orks mightn't even get anything meaningful against them. Even if the base is immobile, do they send equal points to get them, or not?

And after T3, does it really matter if those Broadsides get killed anyway [ignoring KP games] as they have either deMeched the Orks and don't add much after that, or the Orks are already in the Tau lines and bashing them up.

<_<

 

+++

 

Do you actually try to screen the table edge to stop the Orks coming on?

What does that do for you?

Does that not just help the Orks to defeat in detail your now Foot Wolves? You are in a conga line, and his force comes in with overwhelming superiority in points at place X.