Walter Payton Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Just a bit of background: A Mary Sue is a character who is perfect in nearly every regard, frequently though not always a self-insert and generally a wish-fulfillment-fantasy on the author's part. In the context of the Liber, it means a chapter/character who is totally perfect or has some ancient Dark Age of Technology Death Star(s) for no apparent reason. The term comes from a mocking 15-year old "Lietenant Mary Sue, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet," from story satirizing the phenomenon of Trekkie fanfiction. Hopefully this will help Liberites not to fall into that particular trap. The test Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felwether Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Hmm... Not entirely sure if that test is appropriate for Space Marine characters. For some reason the only response I could think of for most of those questions was 'ANIME'. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2751700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadorius Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Eh, not a great test since a lot of the questions aren't even applicable here, and some go without saying (being genetically engineered doesn't mean a SM is a "Mary Sue"). A Liber specific one would be interesting, though. A sort of checklist to go along with the DIY guide. Personally, I find the Munchausen approach to chapter creation to be most efficacious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2751702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 technically mary sue refers to female characters, although gets used for males too.. the correct term would be gary stu IIRC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2751751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Privateer Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Here you go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2751753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Eh, not a great test since a lot of the questions aren't even applicable here, and some go without saying (being genetically engineered doesn't mean a SM is a "Mary Sue"). A Liber specific one would be interesting, though. A sort of checklist to go along with the DIY guide. Personally, I find the Munchausen approach to chapter creation to be most efficacious. Sometimes is good to read the instructions, before starting. :) Although this test is better for characters of your Chapter rather than the Chapter itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2751820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 And remember, quantity of posts does not equate to quality. Just because your story about your Chapter Master giving Abaddon a wedgie stretches out to five pages doesn't mean it's any good. No, it's just another 'Abaddon wedgie'. Your Chapter hasn't been to the Black Library, hasn't fought off the Black Rage, hasn't blown up a craftworld, wasn't part of (insert already published and established in-universe historical event), and didn't do something really inane like stamping someone's name on one of the Daemon Primarch's faces... Common sense rules supreme over these sorts of things. Ask yourself honestly: if someone else were to read your story, would they call B.S.? If your answer even hints towards yes, you probably need to take a closer look at what you're writing. People aren't interested in genetically altered superhumans. What they want are emotionally three dimensional genetically altered superhumans. Having your entire Chapter made up of Calgar-clones (not Ultrabashing, I do literally mean Calgar himself) is as boring as it sounds. What's the point of a group dynamic if there's no differentiation between personalities? Also, just swapping their weapon DOESN'T change the way they think about things. Another aspect to be aware of is that, even if your Battle Barge's commander is more than five thousand years old, hard wired into his ship through an MIU and has a plot nebula to hide in, if he's going up against an entire armada, he's going to be shot down, end of discussion. Nobody is going to think less of your Chapter if they only maybe killed one or two ships on the way to their mission instead of an entire battle fleet. Let your ships shine in the brilliant way in which they individually duked it out with an enemy warship rather than some ridiculous kill tally that even Tzeentch would have a hard time getting passed anyone. Just remember: You are your worst critic. In a bad way. It's not that you're too hard on yourself...you are too soft. Get somebody else to look at your paper. Then get another. And another. If they all pretty much agree that what you wrote looked like something you've see drawn in MS paint on the tenth page of Deviantart, then perhaps you should either find an objective way to improve your writing or find another aspect of the hobby that you can enjoy yourself with. Making the rest of us suffer through your brain-addling fanfiction is NOT the way to go. Not all fanfiction is bad, though, and that's something to think about for the sake of positivity. Look at the Dornian Heresy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2751873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The best way to learn how to avoid Mary Sue-ism is by trial and error. It's tricky to learn the right blend between awesomeness and fitting neatly into the universe ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2751921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Basically if your Character/Chapter is written as better then everyone elses ... its Mary Sue. No test needed. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2751966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 What's this 'Munchausen method'? :) (Does it involve old men telling tall tales in a jaunty tricorn hat? ;)) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2752361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Basically if your Character/Chapter is written as better then everyone elses ... its Mary Sue. No test needed. :D I would like to paraphrase this: "If your Character/Chapter succeeded, for no apparent reason, where others failed..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2752414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Basically if your Character/Chapter is written as better then everyone elses ... its Mary Sue. No test needed. :D I would like to paraphrase this: "If your Character/Chapter succeeded, for no apparent reason, where others failed..." That works too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2752439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadorius Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 What's this 'Munchausen method'? ;) (Does it involve old men telling tall tales in a jaunty tricorn hat? :P) Yeah, pretty much :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229351-mary-sues/#findComment-2752877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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