firebases and deep strike

[Lord_Caldera]

Greetings brothers. I'm seeking help on how to beat a deepstriking army with a firebase. I play a fairly static core to my usual army with Devastators, Thunderfire cannons and Tactical combat squads and I usually do pretty well. But a recent tournament experience getting tabled by Daemons and the prospect of facing drop pod SW in the near future makes me ask you: how can I defend against this sort of army? I could reserve my base but the chance of having only two or three turns of firing as I wait and maneuver isn't appealing.

[DarkGuard]

Ah, the old reserving trick. Hasn't worked for me against Drop Pod Space Wolves, and my army is mobile.

 

Anyway, the main question is how mobile your army is. By the sounds of it not very mobile. In this case you can't really afford to reserve them, as you won't be able to open fire properly when you come on. Therefore, I'd say the best way is to castle. Find some good terrain, and castle your forces. Keep them close together, make it near impossible for him to deep strike in-between them. Try to force him to deep strike in the open in front of you, and then blast him to bits. Best I can suggest at the moment I'm afraid.

[TyrionTheImp]

Deployment is the best way. Make "traps" for him to fall into, and concentrate fire one unit at a time. Unless you're playing against BA with Vanguard, they can't assault you after Deep Striking. I'd say your game against Daemons was a luck win for him, Daemons just aren't reliable, and they either steam roll you, or you steam roll them.

 

If you're playing firebase, you should have enough firepower to obliterate anything that comes into or near your deployment zone when deep striking.

[Lord_Caldera]

The Daemons may have been a fluke, he only mishapped once and dropped Flamers right on top of my base first turn. It's the Wolves I worry about. I do have a couple Rhinos and keep a Dreadnought and Sternguard to pod in and distract things while I shoot, but the Wolves I'm worried about. My buddy isn't the best strategist but he's bringing a mean list of Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard with Lo-jac. Should I just bunker down and hope for the best?

[DarkGuard]

Daemons probably was a fluke, they're not amazing, and even worst if you feel like being mean and taking Null Zone. I'd chuck the Rhinos in reserve, let them react to your opponent deploys and use them to counter-attack and bolster the line. I always feel there's something wrong when people win less because of strategy but because they took an "internet" list, like TH/SS Terminator spam etc. Of course, if he's constructed the list himself then respect to him, that's half of winning the game right there.

 

Again, try to control where he deploys. Unless he's really jammy with his rolls he won't want to try and deploy behind you unless he scatters off the table. Castle your firepower units up, make him deploy in the open and in bad positions, and pour firepower into his units. Then bring your Rhinos and Sternguard etc on where they're needed the most. I think that when it comes down the Drop Pod lists it's a combination of trial and error, luck, and strategy. Any on of them goes against you and you'll struggle. Best of luck.

[ShinyRhino]

Castling works, but only for so long.

The real difficulty for a statis list facing a deepstriker list is saturation. If several enemy units arrive from reserve at once, you can easily end up swamped.

Remember that Daemons get half their army on Turn One. You essentially lose an entire turn of shooting at them, unless they were forced to go first. Once that wave arrives, you have to prioritize targets very carefully. Things like Bloodletters can be taken down en masse with bolter fire and Thundefire rounds. But if there are monstrous creatures like Keepers of Secrets, Bloodthirsters, Greater Daemons, or Daemon Princes, you end up putting a lot of heavy weapons fire into them. if your heavy weapons are scattered throughout combat squads, you lose all the attached bolter shots that could be sinking Bloodletters and such.

If you don't clear out entire units in one turn, the units arriving from reserve start piling up in your face via Icons, which are essentially Teleport Homers. It's not uncommon for a Daemon player to take a huge squad of expendables like Daemonettes, Bloodletters, or Plaguebearers toting an Icon, and then use weight of numbers and Fearlessness to advance to your line, where the last model standing is the icon. That icon then draws down the close combat beasts and monsters, who are instantly upon you.

I'd consider adding some non-gunline units to your army, and deploying in a hemisphere formation. Big guns in the core, counterassault units in the inner ring, and light guns in the outer ring. Counter assault units like Assault Marines can jump right over your lines, and hit the enemy before they hit your softer light gun units (combat squads). Assault Marines can often take down the remainders of the squads that were shot up by the rest of your army.

Always ask your opponent which units have icons, and focus fire on those. So much of a Daemon battleplan depends on those Icons for reliable deployments.

[Something Wycked]

ShinyRhino has it exactly right.

 

It sounds like your list doesn't have much in the way of counter-assault because you've focused so heavily on firepower. If that's true, you really should reevaluate your list and see what you'd be comfortable trading out for some assault-oriented troops.

[Lord_Caldera]

Alright I'll try to stick some Assault Marines in there for counter-assault. I do tend to keep combat squads in the Rhinos in reserve, and thinking about it I think my SW friend only has 4 or 5 units in his army. Thanks for the advice guys.

[Something Wycked]

Speaking of which, if you post your list (and maybe tell us a bit more about his), I'm sure a few of us would be happy to point at some things for you :P

[Corby]

I'm suprised alot of posters consider Daemons to be quite poor. They're a very strong army in my opinion , (however they've very few "competitive" builds , Namely Fateweaver is a must in most daemon builds) and when in the hands of a capable general they're down right lethal. While its true that they do suffer in the random nature of their deployment , they are still a strong army. Also with the eternal warrior special rule over the entierty of the Daemon army and with every unit having an invunerable save , weapons like missle launchers , plasma and meltaguns are less effective than against other armies ( as demons also posess a good deal of mobility in units like Fiends and other Daemons with wings.

 

When playing against Daemons you must be able to cope with the initial wave as soon as it lands , otherwise you will be quickly overwelmed as more daemon units arrive from reserve. Daemons also capitalise on armies with large amounts of infantry and armies with a lack of mobility , that does not mean they can't handle mech however , as the daemon army has several shooting attacks and each unit can put out a suprisingly large number of high strength attacks to deal with mech.

 

Playing against a Daemon army is a game that will usually be won or lost in the first 2-3 turns. Reserving ( if you win the roll off to decide the first turn it can be quite benefical to give the first turn to the daemon player) against a Daemon army can be extremely effective as it forces the Daemon player to deploy defensively ( something a daemon army doesn't do to well) it also forces the Daemon player to deploy in anticipation of the arrival of your forces so the Daemon player may either A: Deploy central in which case you can castle on a flank ( Placement of objectives in capture and control and sieze ground missions is important if you're employing this strategy as is knowledge of each Daemon unit's movement. Especially Fiends. These chaps will mess up infantry and vehicles moreso than other units) or B: Spread his forces to retain board control. ( in this case you can simply move onto the weakest flank and destroy the units located there , denying him the use of other units in his army. Again knowledge of Daemon units is important so you can identify the weakest flank in relation to your armies strengths.)

 

Hope that makes sense :P

 

As for drop pod wolves , they deploy in a similar way to the Daemon army and thus several strategies used against demons can be used against them. Namely , Refusing the flank. ( however space wolf drop pod armies may or may not have long fangs in drop pods as ranged support so you will have to either make use of terrain to block line of sight , assault the long fangs with combat units if they deploy too far forward or , deploy away from his grey hunters and other combat units and focus fire is long fangs. focus firing the long fangs is a riskier strategy as you may not posess the long ranged power to blow them away quickly enough and thus expose yourself to their return fire)

 

. Placement of objectives in capture and control missions and sieze ground missions is again important. in kill point missions this army isn't such a big deal due to the large number of easy kill points available in the drop pods. By reserving against combat orientated space wolf armies you once again force tough deployment decisions on your oppoent , as a drop pod of terminators , grey hunters etc. being deployed out of the way to retain board control can potentially leave them out of the game.

 

Hope that also makes sense. ;)

 

Make what you will of the advice I've posted here. It certainly isn't the 100% fail proof method of tactics against deepstrike/drop pod heavy armies , but I hope it helps.

[DarkGuard]

I'm suprised alot of posters consider Daemons to be quite poor. They're a very strong army in my opinion , (however they've very few "competitive" builds , Namely Fateweaver is a must in most daemon builds) and when in the hands of a capable general they're down right lethal.

 

I will qualify then why I feel Daemons to be poor, and you've pretty much said it yourself in that segment of your post. For me, a strong Codex needs to be able to produce many viable competitive builds, rather than relying on one or two builds to be competitive. So Codices like the C:SW, C:BA, C:SM, C:IG all have different, competitive builds to them, and can boast many of these builds, making them strong. Codices such as Daemons and Nids, however, tend to rely on one or two competitive builds to stand a chance of winning, resulting in a poor dex as you don't have much choice over what you want. Hope that clears things up.

[Something Wycked]

Codices such as Daemons and Nids, however, tend to rely on one or two competitive builds to stand a chance of winning, resulting in a poor dex as you don't have much choice over what you want.

And when you know exactly what your opponent is going to do, its that much easier to know how to counter him, making it even weaker.

[Pigchampion]

I've been having some troubles with deepstriking armies also. Hive Tyrant with a Hive commander, Ymgarl genestealers, outflanking genestealers and gaunts (gaunts possibly with furious charge), Trygon and a Mawloc in the same list with Hive guard and Zoanthropes for fire support puts a lot of pressure on your deployment. You have to avoid certain area terrain, flanks and castling. Blood angels also have possibilities to put the same kind of pressure on you with very reliable deep striking, blood lance to break your castles and lots of melta. So what to do? Two things I've been thinking of:

 

1) Pincer deployment

Army split in two, as far away from each other as the situation allows. Playing against all-reserve lists allows you to take one turn of adjusting on an empty board after your initial deployment. If the opponent chooses to concentrate on the other flank, he'll have to take the heat from the other one while doing so. The other flank might be lost, but the opponents army should not be able to take the other one down.

 

2) 10 Tactical terminators

A 9 powerfist bubblewrap with a respectable amount of firepower. These would be basically used as a wall of bodies anywhere that it's the most necessary. With a 2" spread they can cover wide areas, cyclones keep them in the game all the time and they take a lot of effort to remove.