Help with a Razorback based list

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings fellow players,

 

I'd like to make a competitive list based on the use of Razorbacks. Do you have any suggestion?

 

I usually play 1500, 1850 and 2000 pts games.

 

Thank You for your assistance.

[Gentlemanloser]

Take Crowe, mix 5 man , 2 Psycannon Purifiers in Psybolt Razorbacks with as many Heavy and Elite Psybolt Rifleman Dreads as points and minis allow.

 

Job done. <_<

[Spartans]

I am not sure if I am allowed to link other blogs or sites so here is a post Kirby put up on his blog "3++ is the new black"

 

Continuing on with our Crowe based lists (we looked at Dreadbash last time); it's now time to look at an MSU based list. Now we've had this discussion before in relation to a regular RazorKnight army with GKSS instead of Purifiers so the majority of the post is going to really be looking at the differences between these two armies as the army isn't that difficult to put together. Let's do this quickly and then do some analysis.

 

We start with Crowe obviously which takes 150 of our precious points away but gives us access to Purifiers as Troops, yay! We then need to consider the options of Rhinos or Psybacks. We are most likely going to be hopping out of our tanks to double the targets your opponent has to deal with which Psybacks obviously help by having firepower of their own and importantly adding 12" of range. Rhinos on the other hand allow the Purifiers to ride around in safety and shoot out of the top hatch. This is less important compared to other armies as Grey Knights have stormbolters so are quite effective on foot themselves but having Rhinos to hide depleted squads in (i.e. 1 or 2 guys left) for protection and still allowing them to shoot is a great bonus. In the end the Psyback is going to provide more with the extra firepower being a huge bonus but some Rhinos won't go amiss. We're also going to want some hammers in our squads for some back-up combat ability.

 

With that in mind we'll have our Purifier squads run with 2x psycannons, a hammer and a psyback for 195 points each. Six of these uses 1170 points and gets us 12 psycannons, 30 Purifiers and 36 S6 shots and a lot of points still to work with. We'll then take some Purgation squads to access some more Psycannons. We can go the full haul here and take 4x psycannons per squad but that's very expensive. For the moment let's take 2x psycannons and 2x incinerators + a Rhino for 180 points. Again, the Rhinos don't add firepower but allow depleted squads to hide and re-mobilise and allow for some top-hatch work as needed. Otherwise these units (we'll take three) are the 'spearhead' of the army with the Purgation squads deploying behind them and using Astral Aim.

 

This takes our points total to 1860 so we have some options on what to do now. We can grab an Inquisitor w/TDA + henchmen unit in a Chimera for an extra psycannon and potential melta though points would be very tight for this. We could add more Psycannons to the Purgation squads and Halberds to the Purifier squads. We could run a Libby which would make the whole army very potent in midfield but have issues getting there (you'd have two Crowes!). We could also run a Vindicare for a very reliable and ranged anti-tank shot which would be quite useful and he can always hijack one of the Rhinos for protection.

 

In the end I think they are all pretty viable but the Libby one is the hardest to pull off due to lack of a transportation for him. I'll write up the list with the Inquisitor but the increased Purgation psycannon option and Vindicare have merits as well. Also, we could drop one of the Purgation squads for another Inquisitor + Henchmen squad combination and also get some melta weapons in there though you lose a psycannon and Rhino (but gain a Chimera).

 

Purifier RazorKnights

 

Crowe

Inquisitor w/TDA, Psycannon

3x Acolytes, Chimera

4x5x Purifiers w/2x psycannon, hammer, Psyback

2x5x Purifiers w/2x psycannon, Psyback

3x5x Purgation w/2x psycannon, 2x incinerator, Rhino

 

Totals: 1997 points

10 vehicles

50 infantry

 

Let's compare this then to a GKSS based RazorKnight list; something similar to this:

 

Inquisitor w/combi-melta

3x5x Purifiers w/2x psycannon, hammer, Psyback

4x5x Grey Knight Strike Squad w/psycannon, MC hammer, Psyback

2x5x Grey Knight Strike Squad w/psycannon, Psyback

2x5x Purgation w/2x psycannon, 2x incinerator, Rhino

 

Totals: 2000 points

11 vehicles

56 infantry

 

or this:

 

Libby w/Quick, Might, Shrouding, Sanctuary

Inquisitor w/3x Skulls

2x Acolytes, 3x MM Servitors, Chimera

2x5x Purifiers w/2x psycannon, Psyback

6x5x Grey Knight Strike Squad w/psycannon, Psyback

2x5x Purgation w/2x psycannon, 2x incinerator, Rhino

 

Totals: 1997 points

11 vehicles

57 infantry

 

 

The Purifier RazorKnights army has 19 psycannons across 10 units compared to 16 psycannons across 11 units or 14 psycannons across 10 units so the Purifier list clearly has the advantage there. The non-Purifier RazorKnight lists have the important advantages of more bodies/tanks and more S6 shots at 36" with the addition of more utility, particularly in the 2nd list with the Librarian and MM Servitors. These squads also lack the Crowe tax and having 150 points of mehness which is nice to have though he is giving you more psycannons which is nice.

 

 

Importantly however, the Purifier RazorKnight list has really difficult target priority for your opponent as it currently stands. Everything has two psycannons (except for the Inquisitor) at range and your Troops are Fearless which is pretty damned useful against shooting. The other RazorKnight armies bring more utility to the table which also allows your opponent easier target priority choices, though the force multiplier of the Librarian is very strong.

 

 

Ultimately I think all the lists have merits whilst not being my cup of tea. If you're looking for as many psycannons and an MSU based army, the Purifier RazorKnight army is your best bet. The other armies move away from this slightly and are probably better with the Purgation squads replaced with Psyfledreads in the end for a less uni-dimensional army (or the Purifiers when they are Elites) by providing ranged support and fleshing out the Henchmen screening squads with more melta, etc.

[archangelCJ]

it seems that whenevr razorbacks are to be concerned, the flavour of the month is to stuff them with purifiers.

 

i do this myself, and i have a arther effective list that has successfully beaten Dark Eldar, Eldar, Space Wolves and Chaos (marines) however there have been losses, theer have been far more victories.

 

what i have now is:

 

crowe

 

6xpurifiers

2xincinerator

hammer

razorback

TL-assault cannon

psybolt ammo

dozerblades

 

6xpurifiers

2xincinerator

hammer

razorback

TL-assault cannon

psybolt ammo

dozerblades

 

6xpurifiers

2xpsycannons

hammer

razorback

TL-lascannon

 

6xpurifiers

6x halberds

 

stormraven

TL-miltimelta

TL-lascannon

 

dreadnaught

2xTL-autocannon

psybolt ammo

 

 

dreadnaught

2xTL-autocannon

psybolt ammo

 

 

im pretty sure this is currently running at 1500 points. i know the incinerators are a little unconventional as everybody is taking psycannons for the s7 rending goodness, but i have had so much fun with the flamers that i just can't bear to part with them ;)

 

also i see a lot of people taking the standard TL-heavy bolter on the razorback instead of upgrading. the armies that i go up against are usually heavily transported, and the assault cannon is just so much better at killing tanks, and has an extra shot to put into a hoard if need be. the TL-lascanon is there because i couldn't bring myself to buy a 3rd cursader conversion kit just to get the assault cannon sprue :P. what have peoples expriences been with the normal razorback? good or 'meh'? if i was to do that i would save the points and just get a rhino and have two psycannon dudes shoot out the top, more shots, better strength and rending. i dont do that because: 1) flamers. 2)i like the idea of having something else that can zoom arround and still shoot up some stuff pretty decently, and a rhino just dosen't offer that to me. (i was referring to them both being empty)

 

my biggest test (as it means i have to drop somethign cool!!) is to get the list down to 1250 for a tournie arround july sometime. i pretty sure i will be stking the stormraven out with the halberd purifiers, but that obnly leaves me 100 points left to spend. i figure just buy some normal guys and use them to sit on a rear objective and hopefully deny deepstrike with warp quake. any better ideas would be appreciative :)

[Cmdr Shepard]

Thank You for sharing your ideas, battle brothers :tu:

 

I'll try to post a valid contribution to the topic.

 

1. I really like Purifiers but I tend to use a Crowe led purifier army only when I face hordes. I may be wrong but the presence of Crowe in a mechanized list create a simple issue: he remains isolated from the main body of the army. Since he is not an IC he cannot join any unit, that means he have to footslog around the table or he have to take a transport away from another squad.

I was thinking to base a MSU razorback list on Strike Squads. They are cheaper and provide a valid Deep Strike defense. 5/6 strike squads on razorbacks should cover a great portion of the table with Warp Quake.

I know they are not strong as Purifiers in CC but they are not helpless, especially if two 5/6 men squads combine their assault efforts. I'm also aware the current trend is to not equip Strike Squads with hellberds but a small unit must kill quickly as much enemies it can and I6 will assure the models will attack first in most cases. Of course the squad will need a psycannon and a hammer to counter vehicles.

Since strike squads don't need Crowe we can choose any HQ we like. An OX Inquisitor sounds an interesting choice to me (note that with Crowe cost you can field nearly 2 of them giving two squads full access to rad/troke nades)

 

2. A Librarian is a very appealing choice, well at least theoretically. We can buy a chimera for the Inquisitor's retinue and place the Librarian inside its hull, since chimeras can transport Terminators.

There is no a single assault vehicle thus our squads cannot disembark and charge in the same turn. Sanctuary plays a relevant role here, in my opinion. If your vehicles reach enemy lines you have two choice: you leave your squads inside them or the disembark. In the first case your vehicle is at charge rik and a vehicle is helpless in CC. Sanctury will create a lot of problems to our enemy's assault plans. Also remember Might of Titan/Hammerhand can be a nice upgrade to a death cult assassins' unit.

That's again only my theory.

 

3. LasCannon and psybolt AC are very powerful weapon but is it worth to put them on AV 11 vehicle? They make razorbacks' cost pretty high for their survivability.

Without them, however, we have a serious lack of anti-thank fire power.

 

 

What do you think?

[number6]

1. I was thinking to base a MSU razorback list on Strike Squads. 5/6 strike squads on razorbacks should cover a great portion of the table with Warp Quake.

I know they are not strong as Purifiers in CC but they are not helpless, especially if two 5/6 men squads combine their assault efforts. I'm also aware the current trend is to not equip Strike Squads with hellberds but a small unit must kill quickly as much enemies it can and I6 will assure the models will attack first in most cases. Of course the squad will need a psycannon and a hammer to counter vehicles.

Put me firmly in the camp of not bothering with halberds on Strikers. Just not worth the points expense. If you want a combat unit, why not settle for, say, 4 units of Strikers and then you can spend some points on Purifiers -- with halberds -- as your assault unit?

 

2. A Librarian is a very appealing choice, well at least theoretically. We can buy a chimera for the Inquisitor's retinue and place the Librarian inside its hull, since chimeras can transport Terminators.

Definitely entertaining! :D I'd only do this if you're using an Inquisitorial retinue to give you a 2nd assaulty unit. (Nearly always a good idea.) Otherwise, I'd put the libby elsewhere or entertain thoughts of a different HQ.

 

3. LasCannon and psybolt AC are very powerful weapon but is it worth to put them on AV 11 vehicle? They make razorbacks' cost pretty high for their survivability.

Without them, however, we have a serious lack of anti-thank fire power.

Take enough psycannons and you won't have a serious lack of anti-tank power.

 

It's not anti-armour that GKs lack anymore. Psycannons -- spammed -- really are good enough for the task. It's long-range that the GKs lack. The GKs themselves don't have a weapon with a threat range greater than 24". This is where you bring in vehicles to help you out. Most commonly its dreadnoughts with double twin-linked autocannons and psybolts ("psyflemen"). But land raiders and Stormravens can do the same. So can Inquisitorial henchmen units.

 

And so can razorbacks. However, I think it's a rare army list that should stray from the dirt cheap "psyback" configuration: twin-linked heavy bolters, psybolts, 50 pts. The psyback is cheap and gives you reliably Str 6 shots at an extra range band greater than GKs can target.

 

The problem with any other razorback outfit in the GK army is expense. You are practically doubling the number of points spent but without making the vehicle any more survivable. The cheaper you keep your razorbacks, the more likely it is you can absorb their loss. If you're depending on razorbacks to use their single lascannons -- not twin-linked! -- to pop armour from distance ... guess what's not going to work for you! :tu:

 

Transports are really the big targets you want popped early in the game. The psyback is fine for that. Use them to get your psycannons in range and to threaten infantry and transports on their own merits as well.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Put me firmly in the camp of not bothering with halberds on Strikers. Just not worth the points expense. If you want a combat unit, why not settle for, say, 4 units of Strikers and then you can spend some points on Purifiers -- with halberds -- as your assault unit?

That's a very valid option. Possibly a 10 men unit in a rhino or Stormraven... don't know if the Stormraven fits well in a MSU list....

 

Definitely entertaining! :) I'd only do this if you're using an Inquisitorial retinue to give you a 2nd assaulty unit. (Nearly always a good idea.) Otherwise, I'd put the libby elsewhere or entertain thoughts of a different HQ.

That was exactly my intention: a second assaulty unit. If the the Stormrave is included the Libby can join the purifier assault dedicated unit...

 

Take enough psycannons and you won't have a serious lack of anti-tank power.

 

It's not anti-armour that GKs lack anymore. Psycannons -- spammed -- really are good enough for the task. It's long-range that the GKs lack. The GKs themselves don't have a weapon with a threat range greater than 24". This is where you bring in vehicles to help you out. Most commonly its dreadnoughts with double twin-linked autocannons and psybolts ("psyflemen"). But land raiders and Stormravens can do the same. So can Inquisitorial henchmen units.

 

And so can razorbacks. However, I think it's a rare army list that should stray from the dirt cheap "psyback" configuration: twin-linked heavy bolters, psybolts, 50 pts. The psyback is cheap and gives you reliably Str 6 shots at an extra range band greater than GKs can target.

 

The problem with any other razorback outfit in the GK army is expense. You are practically doubling the number of points spent but without making the vehicle any more survivable. The cheaper you keep your razorbacks, the more likely it is you can absorb their loss. If you're depending on razorbacks to use their single lascannons -- not twin-linked! -- to pop armour from distance ... guess what's not going to work for you! :lol:

 

Transports are really the big targets you want popped early in the game. The psyback is fine for that. Use them to get your psycannons in range and to threaten infantry and transports on their own merits as well.

I agree. I always thought keeping razorbacks cheap was a necessity. "Doubling the number od points spent but without making the vehicle more survivable": that was the very problem.

When I conceived the idea of a razorback MSU list I thought about cheap "psybacks".

[archangelCJ]

If you're depending on razorbacks to use their single lascannons -- not twin-linked! -- to pop armour from distance ... guess what's not going to work for you! :P

 

the razorbacks do get Twin Linked lascannon. you thinking Las/Plas? i would actualy get that if it was easy to make a sprue :P

 

i do in fact agree with two big points made though. 1) yes crowe does usually stand in teh middle of nowhere with his humb up his a&%$. 2) yes teh las cannon razorback may, or indeed will just not kill that often. but thats because i dont use the squad in them to attack as close combat. what i usually do with that squad is dump them in an objective somewhere in my deployment or into a piece of cover in a kill point game. which then frees the razorback to move a litle, take a pot-shot, and pick up crowe. that way i can hope to get him into combat at a reasonable time.

 

adn as experience tells us, crowe is just a useless lumb of armour basically. so i have taken to the strategy of just using blade shield to bog down a unit for multiple turns (if he survives the furious charge that he cops for being assaulted). this is particularly funny when i do it to my mates long fangs ;)

 

i understand the ammount of points im sinking into the razorbacks, but they are just soooo much fun! :P

 

i find also that i can leave the long range up to my dreds, which everybody seems to be loving (and for good reason). because usually when i move 12", pop smoke (therefore cant shoot), then move again, i find that at least 85% of teh time something is in killing range of the Assault Cannon.

 

i believe all of this basically boils down to who you play against on a regular basis. and i mean WHO. i seen so much divercity in armies over tournaments and random shop encounters, but when i play locally its just the same old stuff where my list just seems to work. kind of annoys me that fact really :P

[Drachnon]

I've looked at razorbacks in the GK codex but I just can't shake the feeling that a unit purifiers or a purgation squad with two psycannons is a better option. A rhino that shoots 4 S7 AP rending shots when moving and 8 when standing still seems like a better mobile firing platform. Plus a storm bolter :lol:.

[Spartans]

Why not just take your basic Razorback with psybolt ammo?

 

In my experience that works just fine with 3 Str 6 shots at 36" range it is good against light armour such as speeders rhino's etc and can even glance a dread and is only 10 pts more than a rhino. This means your anti armour can focus on the dreads and higher armour things as the Razors can take the low armour or gives you back up for poor rolling on the low armour shots. The downside is you have to foot slog your marines behind them but if you use the Razor as a shield they should be ok and it also means once your opo are in the 24" range you can fire all your stormbolters and psycannons in addition to your Razor.

 

I personally if doing a Razor list would go purifiers as you can get 2 psycannons in per 5 which means you could spam 6 purifiers 2 psycannons 3 halberds and a hammer. This means you could put them in the Razor or beef them out with a few more troops and like I said foot slog them. Again the negative is Crowe but not as much as you would think keep him as a counter charge or a distraction that has to be dealt with.

 

Now the problem you will have with this list is anti armour on the AV 14 side you have your psycannons whic might work but they have to get within 24" to have a chance so that leaves us with imo Psyfle dreads, but they can only glance I hear you say ture but take enough of them and you will be getting rid off all its weapons etc.

 

So my 1750 list looks a bit like this:

 

HQ Crowe (We need him for troops)

Elite 2 x Venerable Psyfle Dreads

Troops 2 x 7 Purifiers with 2 psycannons MC DHammer and 4 Halberds

1 x 8 Purifiers with 2 psycannons MC DHammer and 5 Halberds

Transports 3 x Razorback with psybolt ammo

Heavy 3 x Psyfyle Dreads

 

Now you could lose some of the dreads and increase the Razors and Purifiers but imo this list gives your opo target priority issues why because there are only 3 differant units and if he takes one out there are back ups to replace it also each unit can deal with multiple targets with the Razors doing 3 shots the dreads do 4 shots they are good v armour and troops. Plus you have loads of smoke to screen and give cover.

 

Hope that helps

[number6]

the razorbacks do get Twin Linked lascannon. you thinking Las/Plas? i would actualy get that if it was easy to make a sprue :)

I was indeed. I must admit ... I think the TLLC is so expensive as to effectively be entirely useless to a GK army. I would never Ever EVER take the TLLC razorback. :fakenopic:

[Cmdr Shepard]

the razorbacks do get Twin Linked lascannon. you thinking Las/Plas? i would actualy get that if it was easy to make a sprue :D

I was indeed. I must admit ... I think the TLLC is so expensive as to effectively be entirely useless to a GK army. I would never Ever EVER take the TLLC razorback. :)

 

I agree. A TLLC is always a fine weapon but the real advantage of a razorbacks list is, in my opinion, the possibility to deploy a fair amount of "cheap" transports for every, or at least most, GK units.

Beside don't underestimate Psybolt Autocannons. They are less "strong" but shoot more.

 

I'll try to test both purifier and strike squad options. However I would use 5-6 men units so they can be actually transported by "psybacks". The inclusion of an additional Psybolt Dread, in the Venerable form, sounds nice, if points are still available.