DarKnight Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 With the traits bred into the Primarchs by the Emperor, all distilled aspects of his own personality such as his military genius and lust for warfare, would rebellion have eventually occured without the influence of Chaos? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 *Potential Spoilers* I would say not, as the whole idea of Horus turning required the fall of Lorgar, the Anathame blade and other less important events (read; ones I can't remember right now) brought about by the machinations of the Chaos Gods. Non interferance by the Chaos Gods would mean a directionless Lorgar after Monarchia and likely of little steering influence to potential traitors. Lorgar would also not have been subject to the machinations of Kor Phaeron and Erebus which had led him down a certain path. There's a similar domino effect if the Anathame blade did not grievously wound Horus - He would then not be subject to the priests of Davin nor the Chaos Gods themselves. Granted there may have been crises if one of the potentially traitorous Primarchs kicked up but it would have been chump change compared to the Horus Heresy itself and the Scouring afterwards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2752314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I think as soon as the infant primarchs were whisked away by the primordial annihilator there was going to be no other outcome. Perhaps the players could change, but I think the end scenario would always result in rebellion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2752318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 I understand those events led to the Heresy in its current interpretation, I'm just wondering if there was the potential for a non-chaos caused rebellion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2752323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 With no Chaotic intervention...? I feel 50/50... At the end of the day, the Primarchs and Adeptus Astartes were bred for war and I don't see them turning their swords to plowshares. Unless they found a away to take the crusade to Andromeda(next closest galaxy), I do not see them just idling. Perhaps they would be rulers of the galaxy and the rebellion could happen by the "humans" who are under(suffering?) the emp and his sons' rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2752336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I think there's a good chance of some sort of rebellion at some point, by one or more Primarchs and their legions, or at least some internecine conflict. Examine the evidence of the non-chaosy tensions that existed. The Night Lords had been reprimanded and were on the verge of being sanctioned, as an example. The two missing legions had been expunged from the records already - maybe for doing something too wrong. Would tensions between Guilliman and Alpharius have led to battle? Would Angron's World Eaters have to be sanctioned for going too far? Would Perterabu finally have had enough of garrison duty and just said no? Would Corax finally give up on Horus taking the credit and manipulating stuff in his favour? As I said there is enough tension, conflict of interest or philosophy, at the end of the Crusade to allow for some struggles between brothers without the chaos influence. After the Crusade is over and "policing" the Imperium becomes the space marines and Primarchs main role, these tensions are only likely to have increased I reckon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2753162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I would argue that either Fulgrim or Guilliman would have produced a tome similiar to the codex astartes for all the legions to adopt before those kind of tensions bioled over. With ither The Emperor, Malcador or Horus would have been wise enough to order the implementation of this policy across all the legions. It can be said that some of the legions notably the Emperor's Children & the Thousand Sons both actively purued activities for their marines to do after the Great Crusade was over. So it not inconcievabe that some of these marines would stand down & merge with the wider Imperium. For example it is plausiable that Tizca would become the formost place in the Imperium for recieving medical treatment, it says volumes that Khârn visited the ruins of the place during the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2753223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 It depends upon a few things. Each legion had a chance at turning traitor and rebelling in one way or another but they also had a good chance of remaining permanently loyal. Having each legion staying loyal would have relied upon the Emperor not acting like an utter moron, such as with Lorgar and Angron, chaos not having the level of influence it did and Curze staying Curze. As opposed to the Night Haunter personality taking over. Most of the rebellion could have been avoided if Kor Phaeron had been killed before becoming a Word Bearer or the Emperor had actually told the primarchs of the chaos gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2753910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Most of the rebellion could have been avoided if Kor Phaeron had been killed before becoming a Word Bearer Do think with Kor Phaeron that there would of been some sort of "dad meet dad" introduction made by Lorgar. Surely at that point the Emperor would of been able to sense he was a chaos worshipper Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2753922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Clarke Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Without Chaotic interloping, it's hard to say. Some Legions were already leaning that way(Night Lords were getting pretty bad about it, IIRC) and others like Angron had their fair share of daddy issues as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2754149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I think Lorgar's fall to chaos can be attributed to, Lorgar, The Emperor, Magnus, Kor Phaeron & Erebus. Each of these people had infuential roles in Lorgar's pursuit for new gods. If either of those people would have been smart enough to tell Lorgar something along the lines of "Hey. Instead of worship your dad & call him a god, why dont you just love him & call him daddy? And while you are doing that, get all your followers to do that with you :D" That way Lorgar would could still worship the Emperor without "actually" worshipping him, and therefore we would have never have gone looking for the Chaos Gods & everyone apart from Kor Phaeron is happy :lol:. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2754365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I think Lorgar's fall to chaos can be attributed to, Lorgar, The Emperor, Magnus, Kor Phaeron & Erebus. Each of these people had infuential roles in Lorgar's pursuit for new gods. If either of those people would have been smart enough to tell Lorgar something along the lines of "Hey. Instead of worship your dad & call him a god, why dont you just love him & call him daddy? And while you are doing that, get all your followers to do that with you ;)" In Lorgars eyes Roboute might be responsible to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2754427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Without Chaotic interloping, it's hard to say. Some Legions were already leaning that way(Night Lords were getting pretty bad about it, IIRC) and others like Angron had their fair share of daddy issues as well. As bad as they were, I think some of the problems could have been avoided. Angron could have been made loyal if the Emperor hadn't just stabbed him in the back upon meeting him and, for some reason, refused to help with the slave rebellion. The Night Lords would have been fine if they'd just found better ways to impose order upon their world, not accepted psychopaths and rapists into their ranks, and if they'd been lucky enough for Curze's better personality to remain in control rather than Night Haunter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2754429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I see the Primarch project as a century spanning plan that lost it's momentum and led to rebellion, irrelevant of chaos' intervention or otherwise. The Emperor had his master plan for reuniting the race of man and rebuilding an empire amongst the stars and that plan had many, many components. A guy this clever and powerful wouldn't have thought "I'll conquer the galaxy and when I have my super-soldier sons and their legions will just have to go into hibernation till the nids arrive." Each Primarch had his purpose set out; Magnus was to sit on the throne and protect the human built webway, allowing humanity to cut itself off from the warp forever. Dorn was to be the body guard Russ was the Policeman Kurze was the deterrent Horus was the charismatic poster child/negotiator I believe that Big E had a plan for each of his gene sons both during and after the conquest of the galaxy, his mistake was not telling them ANYTHING. The secrets he kept were his downfall and the way he handled his sons as tools and weapons rather than as the individuals they were what caused the heresy. If he had told his sons that he was quitting the crusade to work on the next phase, the webway and the dangers of the warp would be gone forever, they would have been fine, keeping all those secrets meant that one way or the other, Horus or another Primarch would rebel, realising that soon his legion of warriors and himself would be redundant. Paradill Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2754531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
endless Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 The Primarchs and the Space Marine program are a means to an end, and as such were intended to be replaceable. Would they have accepted this? Probably not, they wouldn't go gently, rebellion on some scale would have been inevitable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradill Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 But why would the Emperor, the most far-sighted, ingenious individual the species has ever produced not see that super soldiers might have a problem with being disposed of. This is why I believe all the legions and primarchs would have been given roles to perform in keeping the new imperium together whilst diminishing the recruitment. If my theory is incorrect and Big E did want to just get rid of them when he was done with them, he deserved what happened, the guy was an idiot. Paradill Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I have to agree with those who say it was inevitable. The Emperor was too guarded, and treated some of the Primarchs appallingly. Lorgar or Angron would have come to the end of their tether eventually. A bit more trust would have changed a lot, as would some better choices when crafting the Primarchs' attitudes and not using them as tools. Which is why the story of the Great Crusade and the Heresy is a tragic one, in the true literary sense, and why it's so darned good. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Stromclaw Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Yes, rebellion was inevitable. It is simply human nature. Even in the most benevolent governments in history there have been revolts and armed uprisings. There are always dissidents, and they tend to have an annoying habit of finding each other and getting organized. Of course, the emperor's rule is far from benevolent, so many of those dissidents have perfectly good reasons for revolting. Chaos was definitely a step in the wrong direction, but I do like the Dornian Heresy tale of the Ultramarines. That sort of rebellion strikes me as a lot more likely and common than a fall to Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 i think the emperor always wanted them to rebel and incited them to do so . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 i think the emperor always wanted them to rebel and incited them to do so . Ditto. I believe the Emperor planned for the heresy to happen, so he could be placed on the Golden Throne for 10000 years. All so he can literally have countless billions of worshipping souls sacrificed to his essence, in a slightly different process to how Slaanesh was formed. If you guys wanted Malal. well thats who I believe the Emperor is trying to basically become & I would like to see Horus beat that :D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrolleif Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I too agree that it would've happened eventually. In some unforseen turn of events or rivalry turned to hate something would've happened. As to a full blown rebellion I don't know, but I could easily see an inter-legionary war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Clarke Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 While an interesting theory, it makes one wonder what the final goal of it all is. It's said the brightness of the Astronomicon is leading the 'nids to Terra. How does he plan to handle that if this is all within his plans? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrolleif Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 It's said the brightness of the Astronomicon is leading the 'nids to Terra. How does he plan to handle that if this is all within his plans?It is not our place to question, but to have faith. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 While an interesting theory, it makes one wonder what the final goal of it all is. It's said the brightness of the Astronomicon is leading the 'nids to Terra. How does he plan to handle that if this is all within his plans? Simple the Emperor would have given "birth" to his warp god form. I think the nids would be having problems with the Emperor sending his daemons; the Legion of the Damned anyone after them. You just cant escape those pesky beakies :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Clarke Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 A humongous legion of warp powered beakies would be pretty terrifying... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229400-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-2755598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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