super kill combat unit?

[henrywalker]

can anyone see anything less than awesome with this unit:

 

justicar w.brotherhood banner

9 terminators w.falchions

Grand master w. falchions and rad grenades

 

thats 65 attacks on the charge with the potential to wound on 2's if you get hammer hand with all but 4 not allowing armour saves.

 

who says we can't face up to mob armies? i really can't think of that much that could really withstand that easily. i know there is some big stuff that could but hey

 

anyway, any thoughts? anything i've missed?

[breng77]

It costs alot, and is not terribly durable, with only a 5+ save.

[Decoy]

Any one unit with Plasmapistols or greater weaponry should be more than a match for it.

[Vash]

My IG armies Veteran squad with Demo charge, meltaguns x3 will take down pretty much of this unit, and thats just 130 pts worth... should I match this unit your suggesting in pts I have to toss in some other units with similar capacity.

 

Even daemons of chaos can muster this down. Fiends of Slanesh with 5-6 attacks each rending.

[jmach]

Yea it might be a lot of attacks and can be cool but you have to get them in combat first against a unit that is going on a lower initiative than you. That unit is not very durable at all and will quickly lose power if you opponent gets to attack before you or simultaneously. Also what Vash said is very true, his 130pt squad will ruin that roughly 670ish point unit, not a good trade for you.

[number6]

There are the usual weaknesses of focusing so many points into just one unit.

 

But more importantly: how dead does your target unit have to be? :D And you'd still have to be wary of anything with power weapons at Init 5 or greater. Like Incubi, who could potentially have a field day against that unit for far fewer points. Or a pair of hive tyrants. Or ....

 

Your unit can survive initial assaults with all those. But the cost dealt to your unit would still be immense by comparison to what was pushed against it. Unless you can keep the unit alive -- and that will be difficult with all your points tied up into that unit (thus very little incentive to do anything except deal with it) and nothing better than a 5+ invul save -- if won't be very effective in real game terms.

[Adir]

Xenos inquistor w/rad + psychotroke grenades and 12 death cult assassins would likely destroy that squad. 235 pts for 48 I6 attacks on the charge. Throw them in an LRC and you are still cheaper than the referenced squad.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Plasma and melta would decimate them with no Draigo to allocate onto.

 

Also, can't fit 11 terminators into any version of LR for you to get them to whatever they are assaulting faster.

[spu00sed]

Good for planet strike.

 

Get to assault when it deepstrikes

Hits multiple units

Goes at I4, thanks to the frag grenades

Doesn't scatter much if you get your servo skulls right

[Angelis Mortis]

My IG armies Veteran squad with Demo charge, meltaguns x3 will take down pretty much of this unit, and thats just 130 pts worth... should I match this unit your suggesting in pts I have to toss in some other units with similar capacity.

 

Even daemons of chaos can muster this down. Fiends of Slanesh with 5-6 attacks each rending.

 

Thats assuming your IG Vet squad will survive 2 rounds of Stormbolter fire which it wont.

 

Daemons? Youe mean the ones going at initiative one? Thats even worse than the IG vet idea.

 

EDIT:Forgot to add, if he takes a GK Libby instead with Dark Excomunication forget about rending claws, sporific musk and unholy might as well.

[Chengar Qordath]

Thats assuming your IG Vet squad will survive 2 rounds of Stormbolter fire which it wont.

The odds of a melta-vet squad not riding in a Chimera are pretty close to zero; stormbolters don't do much to AV 12.

 

Daemons? Youe mean the ones going at initiative one? Thats even worse than the IG vet idea.

Psyk-out grenades only come into play if the GK players gets the charge. That's hardly a sure thing with a footslogging squad.

 

EDIT:Forgot to add, if he takes a GK Libby instead with Dark Excomunication forget about rending claws, sporific musk and unholy might as well.

Nobody would spend points to add Dark Excommunication to their Librarian unless they were tailoring against Daemons. A Dreadknight would be more likely.

 

On top of the suggestions already tossed out, I'd once again mention Eldar of either type; Howling Banshees, Incubi, and anything else that combines an Initiative of five or more with power weapons would shred this unit. Due mention also goes to any of the Marine codices that can get Furious Charge; Death Company or Lightning Claw Black Templar Terminators would tear this unit to pieces.

[spu00sed]

Psychotroke grenades only come into play if the GK players gets the charge. That's hardly a sure thing with a footslogging squad.

 

Psychotroke grenades are offensive and defensive grenades.

[Chengar Qordath]

Psychotroke grenades only come into play if the GK players gets the charge. That's hardly a sure thing with a footslogging squad.

 

Psychotroke grenades are offensive and defensive grenades.

*Facepalm* I meant to say psyk-out, not psychotroke.

[Vash]

My IG armies Veteran squad with Demo charge, meltaguns x3 will take down pretty much of this unit, and thats just 130 pts worth... should I match this unit your suggesting in pts I have to toss in some other units with similar capacity.

 

Even daemons of chaos can muster this down. Fiends of Slanesh with 5-6 attacks each rending.

 

Thats assuming your IG Vet squad will survive 2 rounds of Stormbolter fire which it wont.

 

Daemons? Youe mean the ones going at initiative one? Thats even worse than the IG vet idea.

 

EDIT:Forgot to add, if he takes a GK Libby instead with Dark Excomunication forget about rending claws, sporific musk and unholy might as well.

 

Well 130 pts vs 600+ pts isnt really fair :lol: So it goes without saying there is some kind of transport to aid them. I don't know many IG armies with vets without a transport of some kind. In my case its a Valkyrie or Vendetta. Total points is around 260 pts.

All I wanted to show was an example of a low pts unit who can reduce the units strength greatly.

 

VS the fiends I would like to see the suggested unit charge them. NOT going to happen. Strike at ini 1 is when the GK charge...

 

I play GK myself, but I would never make a unit like this and think it will bring home a solid victory.

 

But to improve the unit abit I would take a librarian instead. Quickening to fend of high Ini units, might gives the same result as rad grenades basically, and some other nasty powers if needed.

[TyrionTheImp]

Yay, you cut through my tiny 5 man combat squad with an obscene amount of kills...then what? Right, it's my turn and my entire army is going to torrent you until you're nothing left. I lose around 100 points, you lose...well a lot.

 

Super Death Stars simply don't work against smart opponents, and 65 attacks is too many. You never want to end combat on YOUR turn, and having an almost guaranteed kill further reinforces it. TH/SS Terminators can do it because out of cover they've got a 2+/3++, while your terminators are still just 2+/5++, no matter what you do.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

It's overkill in my opinion. Our termies are just as nasty with banners and halberds.

 

Falchions are best left to the interceptors.

[Angelis Mortis]

Thats assuming your IG Vet squad will survive 2 rounds of Stormbolter fire which it wont.

The odds of a melta-vet squad not riding in a Chimera are pretty close to zero; stormbolters don't do much to AV 12.

 

Right, and I'm certain the GK player only has the one squad of GK Termies to make up his entire army. He has nothing in it that can possibly pop open AV12. :lol:

 

Daemons? Youe mean the ones going at initiative one? Thats even worse than the IG vet idea.

Psyk-out grenades only come into play if the GK players gets the charge. That's hardly a sure thing with a footslogging squad.

 

Really quite irrelevant. With minor tweaking the entire GK squad could be going at Init 10 regardless. Not to mention re-rolling misses and slaying outright with NFW (thats even if the survive the ridiculous amount of attacks coming at them.)

 

EDIT:Forgot to add, if he takes a GK Libby instead with Dark Excomunication forget about rending claws, sporific musk and unholy might as well.

Nobody would spend points to add Dark Excommunication to their Librarian unless they were tailoring against Daemons. A Dreadknight would be more likely.

 

5 points? Really? REALLY?

 

On top of the suggestions already tossed out, I'd once again mention Eldar of either type; Howling Banshees, Incubi, and anything else that combines an Initiative of five or more with power weapons would shred this unit. Due mention also goes to any of the Marine codices that can get Furious Charge; Death Company or Lightning Claw Black Templar Terminators would tear this unit to pieces.

 

I do believe I mentioned Librarian and Quicksilver. 5 pts and its no ahh ahh for the Banshees/Incubit and anything else with init 5-9.

[Vash]

Thats assuming your IG Vet squad will survive 2 rounds of Stormbolter fire which it wont.

The odds of a melta-vet squad not riding in a Chimera are pretty close to zero; stormbolters don't do much to AV 12.

 

Right, and I'm certain the GK player only has the one squad of GK Termies to make up his entire army. He has nothing in it that can possibly pop open AV12. :tu:

 

Daemons? Youe mean the ones going at initiative one? Thats even worse than the IG vet idea.

Psyk-out grenades only come into play if the GK players gets the charge. That's hardly a sure thing with a footslogging squad.

 

Really quite irrelevant. With minor tweaking the entire GK squad could be going at Init 10 regardless. Not to mention re-rolling misses and slaying outright with NFW (thats even if the survive the ridiculous amount of attacks coming at them.)

 

EDIT:Forgot to add, if he takes a GK Libby instead with Dark Excomunication forget about rending claws, sporific musk and unholy might as well.

Nobody would spend points to add Dark Excommunication to their Librarian unless they were tailoring against Daemons. A Dreadknight would be more likely.

 

5 points? Really? REALLY?

 

On top of the suggestions already tossed out, I'd once again mention Eldar of either type; Howling Banshees, Incubi, and anything else that combines an Initiative of five or more with power weapons would shred this unit. Due mention also goes to any of the Marine codices that can get Furious Charge; Death Company or Lightning Claw Black Templar Terminators would tear this unit to pieces.

 

I do believe I mentioned Librarian and Quicksilver. 5 pts and its no ahh ahh for the Banshees/Incubit and anything else with init 5-9.

 

Now then... if we are going to look at a whole army... Of course there will be something that cracks open a chimera. But hey... the IG army doesn't only have one chimera and one unit of veterans... I do believe that there are more vehicles and bodies than that.

Already this unit is overly priced for what it will do (since it will overkill most things once it gets in). Meaning there is less points to be spent on other things.

Yes you will counter the chimera, but then again, the IG player will counter your other units and so on.

 

Coming to the Fiends issue... the above unit doesn't have a librarian, now do they?

So how on earth are they going to strike first? You can't alter what the topic starter has given and what we are giving examples on.

Of course, when altering the unit it will gain new pros and cons.

 

We can sit here and discuss the greatness of your altered unit. In the end it will be killed as it kills the unit it charges, after that, it's in the open.

No matter what you say, a good solid well thought list won't have a point sink unit like this, thus leaving more units to deal with the problem.

As meansioned by many, around 200 pts bring this unit down. That leaves 400+ pts (minus the cost of the unit they took out) extra to deal with what ever counter there is from the GK.

All in all, great power unit, but way to powerful for its own good.

 

And getting Dark Excomunication as a standard... now your being defensive. I have not seen a single list with Dark Excomunication on their librarian, unless they know they will face daemons of chaos.

5 pts may be little, but I for one can't afford those 5 pts as I invest them in things I need more.

[Chengar Qordath]

Vash basically said what I would've if I'd gotten to the response first, so not much for me to add. Only thing that springs out is that Quickening can only be used in your own turn, so it's still no help against Daemons or any other high Initiative unit that gets the charge.

 

If you really want a good horde-killing unit, I would suggest using Purifiers instead; Cleansing Flame is the bane of any horde, they have plenty of attacks (though no access to a Brotherhood Banner) and being PA models means it's a lot easier to transport them.

[Vash]

Vash basically said what I would've if I'd gotten to the response first, so not much for me to add. Only thing that springs out is that Quickening can only be used in your own turn, so it's still no help against Daemons or any other high Initiative unit that gets the charge.

 

If you really want a good horde-killing unit, I would suggest using Purifiers instead; Cleansing Flame is the bane of any horde, they have plenty of attacks (though no access to a Brotherhood Banner) and being PA models means it's a lot easier to transport them.

Err... I keep on forgetting that Quickening only works in your own turn...

 

Purifiers are way better, and if you don't kill them all, you can always run them over as they flee, terminators can't.

[Angelis Mortis]

Now then... if we are going to look at a whole army... Of course there will be something that cracks open a chimera. But hey... the IG army doesn't only have one chimera and one unit of veterans... I do believe that there are more vehicles and bodies than that.

Why wouldn't you include the entire Army? Otherwise the original question will always be a negative answer because you could make up any unit in the game and say "nah, your unit sucks". I think the point he was making was with Termies and the obnoxious amount of NFW attacks, its pretty over the top, which it is. If you want to start tossing in "what ifs" then you must include the rest of the list in the discussion as well, because anyone can make a unit to counter another unit. THERE IS NO ONE UNIT THAT IS HANDS DOWN SUPERIOR TO ALL OTHERS. Its a silly point really.

 

Already this unit is overly priced for what it will do (since it will overkill most things once it gets in). Meaning there is less points to be spent on other things.

Yes you will counter the chimera, but then again, the IG player will counter your other units and so on.

 

I dont believe its overpriced at all, I thinked its priced exactly where it should be. Expensive? Yes. But why wouldn't it be for that ridiculous amount of NFW attacks?

 

Coming to the Fiends issue... the above unit doesn't have a librarian, now do they?

So how on earth are they going to strike first? You can't alter what the topic starter has given and what we are giving examples on.

Of course, when altering the unit it will gain new pros and cons.

I believe I mentioned that the unit needed a little tweaking and replacing the GKGM with the Libby was my suggestion.

 

We can sit here and discuss the greatness of your altered unit. In the end it will be killed as it kills the unit it charges, after that, it's in the open.

No matter what you say, a good solid well thought list won't have a point sink unit like this, thus leaving more units to deal with the problem.

As meansioned by many, around 200 pts bring this unit down. That leaves 400+ pts (minus the cost of the unit they took out) extra to deal with what ever counter there is from the GK.

All in all, great power unit, but way to powerful for its own good.

 

Except from experience it turns out this isn't whats happening on the table. Turns out guess what? A little know secret, it turns out Grey Knights are an expensive elite list. Guess what? That means you will usually have less models than your opponent. Kind of like Deathwing. Guess what else? We already figured on that and it doesn't bother us. And if you think your going to wipe a 11 man Terminator unit (especially one with a Libby in cover w/shroud), well, ok good luck with that. Even in the open you will poor more firepower than you can afford at one unit. By all means, that let my other units close in unmolested.

 

And getting Dark Excomunication as a standard... now your being defensive. I have not seen a single list with Dark Excomunication on their librarian, unless they know they will face daemons of chaos.

5 pts may be little, but I for one can't afford those 5 pts as I invest them in things I need more.

 

Defensive? Now your really losing it. See, I always have 10-15 pts left over. It just works out that way because the list is pretty pricey. This is nice, because if I happen to know what I'm going up against I can toss on up to 3 psychic power. If I don't know what I'm going up against, I can toss on 3 psychic powers and take that just because 1) I have the points and 2) better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. If you were to face Daemons with GK and you didn't have this (Which I believe your the one who brought the ridiculous notion that a Chaos Daemon unit could wipe this unit somehow) you would be a fool for not spending the 5 pts and would deserve whatever happened to you.

[Vash]

Now then... if we are going to look at a whole army... Of course there will be something that cracks open a chimera. But hey... the IG army doesn't only have one chimera and one unit of veterans... I do believe that there are more vehicles and bodies than that.

Why wouldn't you include the entire Army? Otherwise the original question will always be a negative answer because you could make up any unit in the game and say "nah, your unit sucks". I think the point he was making was with Termies and the obnoxious amount of NFW attacks, its pretty over the top, which it is. If you want to start tossing in "what ifs" then you must include the rest of the list in the discussion as well, because anyone can make a unit to counter another unit. THERE IS NO ONE UNIT THAT IS HANDS DOWN SUPERIOR TO ALL OTHERS. Its a silly point really.

 

Already this unit is overly priced for what it will do (since it will overkill most things once it gets in). Meaning there is less points to be spent on other things.

Yes you will counter the chimera, but then again, the IG player will counter your other units and so on.

 

I dont believe its overpriced at all, I thinked its priced exactly where it should be. Expensive? Yes. But why wouldn't it be for that ridiculous amount of NFW attacks?

 

Coming to the Fiends issue... the above unit doesn't have a librarian, now do they?

So how on earth are they going to strike first? You can't alter what the topic starter has given and what we are giving examples on.

Of course, when altering the unit it will gain new pros and cons.

I believe I mentioned that the unit needed a little tweaking and replacing the GKGM with the Libby was my suggestion.

 

We can sit here and discuss the greatness of your altered unit. In the end it will be killed as it kills the unit it charges, after that, it's in the open.

No matter what you say, a good solid well thought list won't have a point sink unit like this, thus leaving more units to deal with the problem.

As meansioned by many, around 200 pts bring this unit down. That leaves 400+ pts (minus the cost of the unit they took out) extra to deal with what ever counter there is from the GK.

All in all, great power unit, but way to powerful for its own good.

 

Except from experience it turns out this isn't whats happening on the table. Turns out guess what? A little know secret, it turns out Grey Knights are an expensive elite list. Guess what? That means you will usually have less models than your opponent. Kind of like Deathwing. Guess what else? We already figured on that and it doesn't bother us. And if you think your going to wipe a 11 man Terminator unit (especially one with a Libby in cover w/shroud), well, ok good luck with that. Even in the open you will poor more firepower than you can afford at one unit. By all means, that let my other units close in unmolested.

 

And getting Dark Excomunication as a standard... now your being defensive. I have not seen a single list with Dark Excomunication on their librarian, unless they know they will face daemons of chaos.

5 pts may be little, but I for one can't afford those 5 pts as I invest them in things I need more.

 

Defensive? Now your really losing it. See, I always have 10-15 pts left over. It just works out that way because the list is pretty pricey. This is nice, because if I happen to know what I'm going up against I can toss on up to 3 psychic power. If I don't know what I'm going up against, I can toss on 3 psychic powers and take that just because 1) I have the points and 2) better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. If you were to face Daemons with GK and you didn't have this (Which I believe your the one who brought the ridiculous notion that a Chaos Daemon unit could wipe this unit somehow) you would be a fool for not spending the 5 pts and would deserve whatever happened to you.

 

So in conclusion you would field this unit (tweeked abit of course to your liking) in your standard GK list along with a Librarian with every single psychic power, since all of them have a purpose in some point in the game.

 

You can math hammer, and you can defend you point that the 11 termis will survive anything that the enemy throws at them. I have to disagree, and I will respect your opinion that you firmly belive that they will stand against an equal amount, or less even as many have stated, of pts well spent.

 

Don't take this to seriously, but calm down mate ^_^

Taking this abit tad aggressively.

 

There is no way we can convince you what we are saying, and you want us to firmly change our minds to what you believe. Sorry to say that we all have different opinions. I see that now in our case that we won't agree.

As I have said before, the unit is good, but over the top good. Over priced is maybe not the right word... perhaps to much attacks rendering the the excess attacks a waste of points.

65 attacks will chop apart anything, and how many units are there out there that have 30 models or more in a standard army today?

Usually these mobs are units with low armour saves. I would go for flamers/incinerators.

Standard unit is 10 man strong. Be it power armours or even terminator armours, doesn't really matter with power weapons.

65 attacks... roughly 33 will hit. Wounding on 2+ brings us to around 27 wounds with no normal armour saves.

If we face 10 terminators they will save around 9 out of those 27 (18 wounds unsaved). So thats still a dead terminator unit.

And if we by any chance face Termies with storm shields 18 saves will be made on 3++ leaving us with 9 dead terminators, and 1 surviving. But... how often do we see 10 TH/SS termis?

So vs power armour units we have 17 excess wounds, vs terminators 10 man units we have 8 excess wounds.

 

So thats what I am saying, its over kill. I would tone down the unit alot and for the points I save I would get much needed bodies that GK needs. As you said yourself, GK are low on numbers so why have a unit that lowers the possibility to have more models?

[Brother Valerius]

And getting Dark Excomunication as a standard... now your being defensive. I have not seen a single list with Dark Excomunication on their librarian, unless they know they will face daemons of chaos.

5 pts may be little, but I for one can't afford those 5 pts as I invest them in things I need more.

 

In any list with a libby that I make, I'll take Dark Excommunication if there is even the smallest chance I'll face daemons. It's just 5 points, you don't give up much for 5 points.

[Decoy]

I dont believe its overpriced at all, I thinked its priced exactly where it should be. Expensive? Yes. But why wouldn't it be for that ridiculous amount of NFW attacks?

 

You mean, that ridiculous amount of attacks that will, on average, only need around 1/3rd of the total attacks to completely wipe a standard MeQ squad? The insane number of attacks that will kill the same amount of units on the charge as a unit more than 1/2 it's price? The ridiculous amount of attacks that forgo any shooting of consequence, leaving them impotent until they manage to somehow get into combat?

 

 

 

Except from experience it turns out this isn't whats happening on the table. Turns out guess what? A little know secret, it turns out Grey Knights are an expensive elite list. Guess what? That means you will usually have less models than your opponent. Kind of like Deathwing. Guess what else? We already figured on that and it doesn't bother us. And if you think your going to wipe a 11 man Terminator unit (especially one with a Libby in cover w/shroud), well, ok good luck with that. Even in the open you will poor more firepower than you can afford at one unit. By all means, that let my other units close in unmolested.

 

My ten plasma cannons will, on average, wipe the squad (as you describe it) out in one turn without any supporting fire. That leaves the other twenty Plasmaguns, 18 lascannons, et cetera free to fire on the rest of your army, while you're out a significant portion of your army in return for no losses.

 

You don't see that as perhaps a HUGE tactical error? Terminators are not anywhere near as durable as you're making them out to be, even with Shroud. You can't have your cake and eat it too; You want to assault? After said assault, you'll be in rapidfire range of the entire enemy army (not like it'd take anywhere near that amount of firepower to drop these guys, anyways) meaning Shroud is damned near useless. You want to sit in cover? Wonderful! That's a huge chunk of your army that I never have to worry about until you decide to let it suicide dive towards me.

 

This is a horrendous tactical blunder from every angle.

[Chengar Qordath]

It's really not that hard for one of the nastier cc-focused Daemon unit to kill off a bunch of terminators if they get the charge.

 

8 Bloodcrushers of Khorne

32 attacks, hitting on a 3+ = 21.33 hits, wounding on a 2+ = 17.77 wounds, 5+ invulnerable save = 11.85 unsaved wounds, all at Initiative 5

 

15 Bloodletters of Khorne

45 attacks, hitting on a 3+ = 30 hits, wounding on a 3+ = 20 wounds, 5+ invulnerable save = 13.33 unsaved wounds, all at Initiative 5

 

Of course, while cc against anything better than Initiative 4 is risky, in my opinion the real danger to the squad comes from shooting, not close combat. After all, a close combat-focused 700 point footslogging Terminator unit is going to be a huge bullet magnet, and anything with AP 2 or better or the ability to stack up a lot of wounds will hurt. A 5+ invulnerable isn't much protection, and while shrouding + cover is better (at least against low AP weapons), a unit that geared for close combat isn't going to be very useful sitting in cover waiting for the enemy to come to them.

 

Personally, if I really wanted a close combat Terminator super-sqaud, I'd cut it down to eight models and stick them in a crusader. Fewer models would reduce the overkill factor, and putting them in a crusader removes all the problems of a footslogging close combat squad. Of course, my version of said squad includes a mix of halberds and hammers, not all-falchions.