super kill combat unit?

[Angelis Mortis]

Of course, my version of said squad includes a mix of halberds and hammers, not all-falchions.

 

I agree with you there. But I think the OPs post was simply demonstrating how overkill the unit is, and not so much how smart it is.

[number6]

I do believe I mentioned Librarian and Quicksilver. 5 pts and its no ahh ahh for the Banshees/Incubit and anything else with init 5-9.

Wrong. Quicksilver works on your turn only. On the opponent's turn, they can still charge you with Init 5+ units and your Paladins will be stuck at Init 4.

 

Also, absolutely depending on psyker powers to keep a unit alive is Tactical Fail. Most armies have multiple ways to stuff psyker powers, and most army lists these days carry some form of anti-psyker abilities. Psyker powers are wonderful bonuses when you can pull them off. But you can't depend upon them to bring you victory.

 

You've also suggested that meaningful discussion can only come about by talking about entire army lists. Well...

 

The suggested unit of Paladins runs 620 pts. Plus you're attaching either a GM with falchions and grenades (200 pts) or, at a minimum, a Libby with Quicksilver (155 pts). That's somewhere between 775 pts and 820 pts spent on the Pallie Deathstar.

 

But there are no psycannons yet, either. The unit is untransportable, so they'll need at least 2 psycannons for shooting. That's another 40 pts, bringing us up to 815 pts or 860 pts. (Most people when they consider buying 10 Paladins will just take two units of 5 instead with 2 psycannons each. But we'll keep this unit "cheap" and focused on the uber-assault as proposed, OK? Otherwise we're spending even more points, because that 2nd pallie unit will also need a character in addition to extra psycannons. And transports, too? Forget about it! :P )

 

If we generously assume that this unit wouldn't show up except in armies of at least 2000 pts in size, that still only leaves you between 1185 pts and 1230 pts to buy a 2nd Troops choice (to make the army list legal) and everything else you'd need to make an army actually function on the tabletop. Being even more generous, I'll assume you take only 5 Strikeknights with a psycannon because you need to scrounge points for everything else. Still only leaves you between 1075 pts and 1120 pts. You've spent half your points allotment and have just 2 units. One of which is crappy in conjunction with the pallie unit, but again, we're just trying to maximize your ability to get "the rest of the army" that you're talking about will change everything.

 

So, two units only, only ~1100 pts left to spend. That means you can only target 2 units a turn with shooting, and have to rely on your pallies walking it sloooowly across the table to reach a target. You certainly aren't going to let them NOT shoot, right? ;) This being GKs, you're hard-pressed to get anything for less than 200 pts, but we have to try. You need more anti-armour punch, more shooting in general. You must be capable of targeting as many enemy units as you can. You have to bust transports ASAP so your pallies can scare the stranded enemy units. The strongest shooting game you can muster is what you need to balance out your pallies. Time for more psycannons and dreadnoughts.

 

+ 4 more Striker units with psycannons (+440 pts)

+ 3 psyflemen dreads (+405 pts)

 

That's 845 pts spent, leaving us with only about 230 pts to 275 pts. I'd find the right mix of Interceptor units (5 men, psycannon, 140 pts) and psybacks (50 pts) to fill out the points. (I'd go for the psybacks myself.) And there's your army.

 

GM/Libby

Pallie Deathstar

5x Strikers w/psycannon

3x Psyflemen

+ 5 psybacks OR 2 Interceptors w/psycannons OR 3 psybacks and 1 Interceptors w/psycannon

 

Still looks mighty thin to me. Especially when compared to what every other codex can put on the table for the same points. Some examples:

 

IG can get multiple Vendettas with whatever they want inside (meltas, demo charges, both), then still have 8 or 10 or more Chimera hulls with dudes carrying meltas/plasmas inside. Plus whatever they like in the heavy support (manticores, medusas).

 

BA can have a nice choppy DC unit, a gazillion guns on 8+ Fast vehicles, meltas/infernus pistols everywhere, and a bunch of other stuff.

 

DE can drop Incubi and Wyches in your face while backed up by 18+ dark lances on vehicles you can't catch, and still have points for a bunch of other stuff.

 

And so on and so forth.

 

I'm just saying: nobody is doubting the killyness of the suggested Paladin Deathstar. But even in the context of an entire army -- as shooty and supportive an army as can possibly be built around them -- they stand out like a sore thumb and will be targeted and killed by enough firepower or assault power (or both). They're only T4 and Init 4 and only have a 5+ invul save, and quite frankly, nothing else in any kind of army you can put around them is worth targeting. So they will die. And with it, all the potency of your army.

 

If you're serious about using Pallies competitively, you have to stick with small units: 5 models or less.

[Vash]

It's normal terminators with falchions and banner, not paladins :P

So its a 470 pts unit with a GM at 200 pts giving us a total of 670 pts

Still alot, and still alot of over kill.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like that unit - its over the top for sure !

 

:D

 

G :tu:

[number6]

It's normal terminators with falchions and banner, not paladins :tu:

So its a 470 pts unit with a GM at 200 pts giving us a total of 670 pts

Still alot, and still alot of over kill.

Yeah, it doesn't actually change much. You can now buy yourself an extra unit somewhere for the 200-ish points saved. Only now it is actually a bit easier to kill since these guys don't have 2 wounds each and are only WS 4. :D

[Vash]

It's normal terminators with falchions and banner, not paladins :)

So its a 470 pts unit with a GM at 200 pts giving us a total of 670 pts

Still alot, and still alot of over kill.

Yeah, it doesn't actually change much. You can now buy yourself an extra unit somewhere for the 200-ish points saved. Only now it is actually a bit easier to kill since these guys don't have 2 wounds each and are only WS 4. :)

Yah, your example is acctually better if you want to live longer.

But it's fun how you proved them dead even if they are paladins :lol:

[Black Falcon 88]

If you go against say IG id hate to see what a demolisher or the plasma cannon russ (cant remeber the name) would do to this squad with 14 front armor on either tank varient with 5 plasma cannon shots and a las cannon if taken. This squad would die fast espeicaly if its on foot. Death star unites are fun but on foot is the last place you want it. My BT termies ride in a crusader for a reason. First it makes them much easier to move to where I need them and it has that nice 14 armor to hide them. Id have to agree with a few people drop the size of the squad and put them in a raider. Then if you have shrouding cast it on the raider so the few melta shots you take the raider gets a cover save. Or if you really want that many termies divide the squad in two. Ones is a target two is a threat

[Daedalus Templarius]

If you go against say IG id hate to see what a demolisher or the plasma cannon russ (cant remeber the name) would do to this squad with 14 front armor on either tank varient with 5 plasma cannon shots and a las cannon if taken. This squad would die fast espeicaly if its on foot. Death star unites are fun but on foot is the last place you want it. My BT termies ride in a crusader for a reason. First it makes them much easier to move to where I need them and it has that nice 14 armor to hide them. Id have to agree with a few people drop the size of the squad and put them in a raider. Then if you have shrouding cast it on the raider so the few melta shots you take the raider gets a cover save. Or if you really want that many termies divide the squad in two. Ones is a target two is a threat

 

Its an Executioner, and it melts terminators without good invuln saves. 5 small plasma blasts per turn... if they take plasma sponsons, and on that rig who wouldn't. Plasma anything is horribly nasty vs terminators.

[Godhead]

Not that I think pallys are in any way worth it, but having played my regular gkt with a libby attached, I think there are some very narrow points of view being expressed. Yes they are foot slogging, but why would you foot slog in the open? If you attach a libby, your footslogging becomes even better if you get shrouding off.

 

Last I checked, guard don't get hoods, so they have ZERO psychic protection unless you own an old Witch hunters codex. Also, have you seen what warp rift, followed up by a hammer hand/mot buffed squad does to vehicles? A guard army doesn't exactly move around a lot and when you multi charge vehicles with 5+ str 6 monsterous creatures those rear armor 10 (or even 11) vehicles go poof.

 

You are also forgetting that against a big gun line like that you can deep strike, run into cover and shoot and assault out next turn. (I prefer to run mine in a stormraven, that thing is harder to kill than people give it credit for, not even counting the 3+/4+ cover save) You have options to get your troops where they are needed.

 

Just because something seems hardcore doesn't mean play dumb. Personally if I was going to use falchions it would be on purifiers. I think termies are better used as gun platforms for psycannons, because they are still more durable on foot vs things like battle cannons, small arms fire etc.

[Daedalus Templarius]

You don't think pallys are worth, what, ~10 more points than regular terminators for +1WS and 2 wounds?

[Black Falcon 88]

Not that I think pallys are in any way worth it, but having played my regular gkt with a libby attached, I think there are some very narrow points of view being expressed. Yes they are foot slogging, but why would you foot slog in the open? If you attach a libby, your footslogging becomes even better if you get shrouding off.

 

Last I checked, guard don't get hoods, so they have ZERO psychic protection unless you own an old Witch hunters codex. Also, have you seen what warp rift, followed up by a hammer hand/mot buffed squad does to vehicles? A guard army doesn't exactly move around a lot and when you multi charge vehicles with 5+ str 6 monsterous creatures those rear armor 10 (or even 11) vehicles go poof.

 

You are also forgetting that against a big gun line like that you can deep strike, run into cover and shoot and assault out next turn. (I prefer to run mine in a stormraven, that thing is harder to kill than people give it credit for, not even counting the 3+/4+ cover save) You have options to get your troops where they are needed.

 

Just because something seems hardcore doesn't mean play dumb. Personally if I was going to use falchions it would be on purifiers. I think termies are better used as gun platforms for psycannons, because they are still more durable on foot vs things like battle cannons, small arms fire etc.

 

Very true but you must also take into account that the IG isnt running heavy mechanised in which case lots of heavy weapon teams or vet teams. And yes you get a save but you must get those big guys to those mean tanks. And with lumbering behomith those tanks are non stop moving and if the person playing them is smart it may take a while to get to them. Also I run a gun line guard army and the only thing stationary in my army are about half my troops and a manticore. The vendettas russes banewolf and vet teams are all very moblile and pack what is needed to do the job and cost less than half the points. But I am off the point. The squad is very killy no one will deny that and has some ways to survive. But it really should be mechanised and as I said earlier if you do then that tank/raven now has a cover save. But to pack so many things into one squad makes it a giant fire magnet. So if you go this route then pack some really good stuff in the other squads or its a one trick poney.

[Chengar Qordath]

When it comes to Deep Striking, I would personally be a bit hesitant to DS a 700+ point unit anywhere that puts them at risk of mishap. If you want to set 11 Terminators down somewhere that doesn't carry any significant risk of mishap, your deployment options might be a bit limited.

[Godhead]

Well you have servo skulls. You can run a teleport homer on the libby, and you can bring a cheap inq for a henchman squad and bring a mystic. This lets you use the summoning without scattering. So it's not like you are not without options to try to minimize your deep striking failures. If I'm running a squad like that, against a ton of shooting, why not? Because you very well may lose the entire thing by the time you foot slog it across the board anyways.

[neonfunk]

Well you have servo skulls. You can run a teleport homer on the libby, and you can bring a cheap inq for a henchman squad and bring a mystic. This lets you use the summoning without scattering.

 

Teleport homers, mystics and servo skulls can work in conjunction with the libby summoning psychic power??

[Godhead]

With the mystic, yes. The homer, no. It does however work with the initial deepstrike.

[uberschveinen]

The point of Grey Knight units is no to make them combat murderers, because there just aren't enough of them, and if you take the transports they need there's nowhere nera enough of them. Their advantage is in that they are almost as good as specialist units in all their tasks. You need dedicated heavy firepower untis to beat their shooting, dedicated Deathstar units to beat their combat, and particularly effective objective-holders to outlast an objective brawl with them.

 

The Grey Knight codex is also very well designed in that they have some spectaculary effective upgrades that on the numbers seem like extreme value for money, but end up balanced simpyl because there is definitively a point in 40K where the sheer smallness of your force is a distinct weakness.

 

There are some extremely good killer units in the codex at lesser prices. The Radhammer Inquisitor with 11 DCAs combo is absurdly effective for a meagre 235 points, which is cheaper than any other Deathstar unit, and it is so effective that its biggest weakness in combat is that it is nearly always TOO efective, and will kill outright all but maybe three units in the game on the charge before they even hit back. And then they sit in the open and get shot, which means that for 235 points you need them to be a counter-Deathstar or hit colossally-expensive squads, or mix half-and-half Crusaders for much greater resilience and the capacity to keep a combat rolling longer, so they live longer.

[Chengar Qordath]

Well you have servo skulls. You can run a teleport homer on the libby, and you can bring a cheap inq for a henchman squad and bring a mystic. This lets you use the summoning without scattering. So it's not like you are not without options to try to minimize your deep striking failures. If I'm running a squad like that, against a ton of shooting, why not? Because you very well may lose the entire thing by the time you foot slog it across the board anyways.

Exactly; if I'm Deepstriking 700 points worth of models, I want to have a homer/skull/mystic to guide them in rather than risk full scatter. That does add a risk of not having homers/mystics where you want them when the unit comes in from reserve, or having bad luck on reserve rolls and not having anything to guide you in by the time the unit arrives.

 

Given how important your timing on entering from reserves would be for this unit, I think a second HQ on the field that can cast communion (such as the Librarian or Inquisitor mentioned in your post) is a must.