To battle Leman Russ.

[Jim Shady]

ADB touched on this on his blog.

 

It's stupid to say Primarch A could beat Primarch B. It's not just the martial factors that someone needs to think about it's the frame of mind at that time, have they just came out of a battle? etc etc

 

 

 

This. You guys could sit here all day and throw facts back and forth and still not truly know who would best who. :D

 

Good to see someone has sense!

[Greyall]

That's not entirely true. There's a reason why surprises in sports are called so. Training, technique, physical attibutes (strength, speed), mentality (ferocity, stone-cold tacticism), they - and their combination - definitely make a fighter better or worse.

 

How things come to transpire does not mean they establish a new paradigm. You can have an underdog vanquish a dominant fighter and it doesn't mean the underdog is suddendly the dominant one, is what I mean.

 

So yes, it makes perfect sense to say Angron would most likely beat every other Primarch, assuming a regular mindset for both combatants and no third-party or environmental interference. What doesn't make sense is getting all riled up when the outcome is different to the expected. In the 'real world', when survival and a larger scope of success is at stake, combats aren't held in arenas nor rules are always followed. And there are days when you can keep your head cool and play to your strengths, and others in which all you do is swing your weapon and hope for the best.

 

If a bet was held for a Primarch tournament, there would be a marked difference between contestants, and even those who advocate the 'it's always 50/50' rule would sooner or later play by the book.

 

Russ would surely get a lot of money put on him.

[Jim Shady]

Quote from an author in regards to this topic;

 

These discussions… They’re not for me. I find them childish, and I think they miss the point. “Which primarch could beat X, Y and Z?” It’s not that simple. It’s not a matter of Paper always beating Rock, and Rock always beating Scissors. That’s why those “Which Primarch Is Toughest?” threads are so worthless. At their peaks, the primarchs are essentially the same, with things mostly dependent on circumstances. Fights are fights, with all the chaos of emotion, fear, fate, and the thousands of things that can go wrong. They’re not sterile events of “Well, he’s stronger, so he’ll always win.” No race or fight ever plays out that way. Don’t be allergic to nuance. That’s not cool.

[Zincite]

Quote from an author in regards to this topic; (Quote)

This is a bit like saying "We should never play 40K because it's a waste of money." The worthlessness is diminished by the fun we all have rooting for our favorite Legion. The sheer amount of these threads proves that we all love them really.

 

Personally, I'd just go into the Black Templars forum, tell them they could never beat Leman Russ because they're a second founding chapter, and then sit back and watch the fun as Leman was dragged under a horde of screaming black-clad fanatics.

[Greyall]

^That's awesome B)

 

I'm not saying that ADB's theory is wrong, it makes perfect sense because it's made for storytelling and non-duel encounters, which indeed vary a lot. But the fact is, the "My Primarch beats yours" also has merits, the Primarchs differ amongst themselves and in certain fights - barring interference -, it'd get unbalanced pretty quickly.

[A D-B]

Quote from an author in regards to this topic; (Quote)

This is a bit like saying "We should never play 40K because it's a waste of money." The worthlessness is diminished by the fun we all have rooting for our favorite Legion. The sheer amount of these threads proves that we all love them really.

 

In my experience, a lot of people don't love them, really. And ultimately, it's not like that "should never play 40k" analogy, on any level. I don't enjoy these topics personally because the number of people unable to separate their own bias from a wider perspective is pretty horrifying. It's like saying "I play Space Wolves in 40K, so Space Wolves should always win in 40K."

 

Rooting for your fave Legion is one thing. Being unable to separate "I like them best" from "I like them best, therefore they're the strongest and they should always win" is another. The latter is what makes these conversations even more worthless. They become pissing contests.

 

Obviously, I don't find them all that much fun. I've definitely noticed a trend with fans of some Legions/Chapters who have a larger percentage of commenting fans on forums who are genuinely unable to separate "This is my favourite Legion, but they're no better than any other, really" from "This is my favourite Legion, so they're the best and will always win." Just because you like it, and know all about it, and think that character should "win", doesn't mean he should. Some people literally can't see that, though.

 

It makes trying to introduce any subtlety a little vexing sometimes. Imagine your career was based on this. Now imagine you could get reviews saying "He knows nothing, I like Legion X best, and Legion X would have won that novel, so he's an idiot."

 

Welcome to why the creators of 40K, and most creative people in any media, avoid the internet's feedback.

[Dosjetka]

I still can't figure out why these topics keep on coming up when the subjects they talk have (to me) been discussed to death and, as ADB has more or less said (it is my understanding of what he has said), going back and forth saying "My Primarch is the best because of X, Y and Z and yours sucks" is just pointless and immature.

 

It's fanboy-ism of the worst kind and it disgusts me to the core :P

 

Ludovic

 

Edit: I fully realise that I haven't replied to the OP's question and that I'm not helping the discussion in any way, but after seeing so many of these pointless threads pop up ever more frequently, I had to get my point of view across to people. I hope you all understand.

[Demus Ragnok]

You wouldn't have to pay me to fight Russ. If I were to be incarnated in the 40K universe, I would be so awesome that Russ would make me his favorite sparing partner. We would be best buds. ;)

 

And as for Angron, I believe he told Eidolon not to mistake his directness for stupidity. And that if Eidolon spoke out of turn again he would kill him.

 

Besides we are debating fictional characters after all. :woot:

[Greyall]

You wouldn't have to pay me to fight Russ. If I were to be incarnated in the 40K universe, I would be so awesome that Russ would make me his favorite sparing partner. We would be best buds. ;)

 

And as for Angron, I believe he told Eidolon not to mistake his directness for stupidity. And that if Eidolon spoke out of turn again he would kill him.

 

Besides we are debating fictional characters after all. :woot:

 

 

Indeed on that last part, I actually think it's cool to debate strengths and weaknesses, provided no one loses sight of what's reasonable (of course, that it happens is why Ludovic, ADB and others don't like it, understandably).

 

Just an aside: almost every time I think about the Heresy, I end up wishing Angron would've made good on that promise to Eidolon...damn, that SOB's annoying.

[Grimdarkness]

Simple one of only two men to best russ the emp or the lion. :woot:

[Dosjetka]

Indeed on that last part, I actually think it's cool to debate strengths and weaknesses, provided no one loses sight of what's reasonable (of course, that it happens is why Ludovic, ADB and others don't like it, understandably).

 

Just an aside: almost every time I think about the Heresy, I end up wishing Angron would've made good on that promise to Eidolon...damn, that SOB's annoying.

I couldn't agree more on every single one of your points.

 

Ludovic

[Grey Mage]

Simple one of only two men to best russ the emp or the lion. :teehee:

I thought Horus Lupercal had aswell, though Russ was one of three people to have beaten him aswell.

[Billuriye]

I searched throughly for Russ beating Horus in sparring. I got nothing except W40k wikia. You know, same site which claims Valdor's beaten Horus too in sparring.

[Conn Eremon]

Russ would surely get a lot of money put on him.

 

See, if it was a tournament, Russ would be the last one I'd put money on, outside of Lorgar. Russ is one Hell of a fighter, but play fights are just that, play. Most cases I've heard of him tussling with a brother primarch involves him losing, though usually with a laugh. But that's just his mentality towards sparring and practice bouts.

 

And yet, he's the Executioner primarch. While his mentality for fighting might make him a poor tournament fighter, in battle it's something else entirely. I'd see him like Wolverine. He might not be the toughest, but he's vicious, goes for the kill, and takes obscene amounts of damage before going down, but practice fights are just fun tussles and nothing more. In a tournament, I'd go with Angron. In a battle, I'd go with Russ.

 

But as the author-quoting poster said, it'll never be a clear cut. What happens at one point does not define all other future points. That doesn't, however, mean that there won't be favorites to win, or that such discussions are pointless. Otherwise, what would be the point of sports or tournaments in the first place? Just because one team or individual chance of winning or losing changes for each game or fight doesn't mean that there won't be fans with favorites who like to discuss their pluses or minuses.

 

And just like sports discussions, there will always be people who will say team X is my favorite and therefore team X is the best. And yet sports discussions have merit even with that. Primarch 'power level' discussions are no different, though each contest would be down to the author's choice rather than an actual contest between the competitors.

[Greyall]

Getting into a brawl and realizing the futility of fighting a brother for nothing is still different from telling him "Your goal is to win, feel free to kick your brothers' teeth in so as to achieve it". He'd launch himself roaring at the next opponent.

 

And if guys like Angron or Curze suddendly derailed into a killing frenzy, I'm sure Russ wouldn't exactly back down. He'd probably be real pissed off about them resorting to killing and pay them back in kind.

 

How many times has Russ lost, anyway? There's the brawl with the Lion, that I can think of...what else?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Getting into a brawl and realizing the futility of fighting a brother for nothing is still different from telling him "Your goal is to win, feel free to kick your brothers' teeth in so as to achieve it". He'd launch himself roaring at the next opponent.

 

And if guys like Angron or Curze suddendly derailed into a killing frenzy, I'm sure Russ wouldn't exactly back down. He'd probably be real pissed off about them resorting to killing and pay them back in kind.

 

How many times has Russ lost, anyway? There's the brawl with the Lion, that I can think of...what else?

 

Of Russ vs any beings that are his equal or better, i only know of 3:

 

Russ vs the Emperor: Russ out drinks and out eats the Emperor, only to reciece a power fist in the face. when he regains conciousness, he claims to have drank too much and pledges his loyalty to the Emperor

 

Russ vs the Lion: they brawl for a day and night, Russ slightly stronger and the Lion slightly faster, so stalemate. Russ then stops fighting and laughs at their actions, and is decked by the Lion in return.

 

Russ vs Magnus: Russ breaks Magnus on his knee, but Magnus escapes through the Warp.

 

now, there is 2 fights i have heard mentioned, but havent found evidence of them yet:

 

Russ vs Horus in a duel, Russ defeats Horus.This has been mentioned a few times, i have yet to see any shred of proof.

 

Russ vs Horus again, for real, and the Emperor intervenes and again Power fists Russ in the face. I am told this was metioned in the HH series, but must have missed it.

 

WLK