Rhino rush tactics

[minigun762]

I use a Rhino heavy army right now so I'm fairly aware of the basic tactics like hiding behind cover, staggering them and popping smoke, armor saturation and running at 6"+ to protect from assaulting but is there any other ideas or methods to get the most out of the little transport?

[Paulochromis]

Choo-choo = running them in single file across the board to avoid presenting rear armour shots to anyone not in your deployment zone (see YTTH).

I've seen them deployed back-to-back along the centre line for the same reason, both "tactics" render them immune to small-arms fire.

triangles/wedges = using them to surround an infantry squad to prevent assault, whilst allowing squad to fire through gap (see 3++).

There are some tactics related to pivoting (eg move them on 6/12", SIDEWAYS; next turn, pivot then move). Not sure I agree with the legality, though.

Spacing can be important, so you can drive around wrecked vehicles, and also disembark.

An important part of rhino rush in 5th is tank shocking, nothing better than lining up your enemy for multiple flamer templates.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[DarkGuard]

Not sure you can move them sideways, but you can definitely deploy them sideways, and get the extra inch or two with the pivot before moving. Tends to be frowned on at my LGS, and I hardly use it for even competitive games.

[ShinyRhino]

If you're rushing them forward in a wave, consider having the follow-on wave consust of EMPTY Rhinos. The ones you bought for your firebase units, perhaps. That way, if you lose one from the first wave, the second wave can move forward and immediately pick up the displaced passengers.

[minigun762]

If you're rushing them forward in a wave, consider having the follow-on wave consust of EMPTY Rhinos. The ones you bought for your firebase units, perhaps. That way, if you lose one from the first wave, the second wave can move forward and immediately pick up the displaced passengers.

 

I like the idea but do you normally have the points available to take empty transports?

 

Paulochromis, I like the ummm, "rear to rear" approach :fakenopic: to protect the AV10 portions.

 

In general, do you find that running heavy tanks in front to absorb incoming fire and provide cover works out better then running the big guys in the back to shoot through the Rhino screen and get their own save? Thinking of something like Vindicators or Baals where you can move/shoot effectively.

[ShinyRhino]

I take empty Rhinos for Devastators and Tqactical Squads from time to time, especially if I have something non-dedicated like a Land Raider in the list. I can pop the Tactical in the Heavy Support Land Raider instead of their Rhino, and drive around.

[Ming]

Couple of thoughts on this thread and some releveant other recent postings:

 

1. Measurement for movement distance occurs before pivoting. You move that vehicle in a direction more than intended and you might be pooping plastic bits for a week. Just wanted to get that out there. I don't care how many times you pivot - just don't move further than the rules intended. I recognize some are using this as a means to get a few extra inches (as many as 4 or 6!) out every movement phase...c'mon! Try winning without cheating sometime! You will maybe sleep better for it!

 

2. Rhino mechanized forces can benefit from co-cover movement tactics as stated above. And as Shiny said - empty ones can be used for backup or even better for cover for the more important full ones. In some cases a wrecked rhino is more valuable than an intact one!

 

3. Let's face the bigger issue - movement alone in a safe metal box does not win you games. Destroying the enemy does. IF you are going to be doing a rhino mech list, something to consider is that you would end up not being able to use HWs carried by the transported units if you move (except for free pivots LOL). THUS - if you are going to be rhino-bound and drive all over, only take the free HWs (like multimeltas) instead of paid for ones (lascannons or PCs). Take the 10 or so points saved and invest in either a HKM or pintle-mounted stormbolter or a sergeant combiweapon. The HKM is preferred and MUST be used ASAP (like turn 1!) and is best usd on opponents light armor or speeders or MCs...not for AV12 or higher...

 

4. Taking 10-man squads to the extent possible makes sense, as a Codex marine needs 10 to get access to the HW and special weapons. Also keeps control on the total number of KPs.

 

5. When buying kits - ONLY purchase the razorback kit - not the rhino kit. It gives you much more flexibility in your collection.

 

6. Dozer blades and Extra Armor are likely to be waste points on Rhinos.

[DarkGuard]

6. Dozer blades and Extra Armor are likely to be waste points on Rhinos.

 

Waste of points? Extra armour yes, dozer blades no.

 

I don't get it, but there seems to be a lot of hate recently about dozer blades. "Your vehicles shouldn't be moving through cover" is all I hear. Well no, they shouldn't, not when if you roll a 1 you can immobilize yourself. But when you can re-roll that? Seriously guys, with a re-roll to vehicle dangerous terrain tests you've got a 1/36 chance of immobilizing yourself. In practise, it will hardly ever happen, if it does, stick that die on the side for some "quiet time" so it can reflect on what it's done.

 

Now vehicles without dozer blades aren't going to chance terrain that much, vehicles with will be smashing through it. Melta squad in vehicle without dozer blade? Going to be going around that terrain feature, my tank is probably save for a bit then. Melta squad in vehicle with dozer blade? Will go straight through that terrain and pose a threat. Being able to go through terrain safely and reliably allows you to open up new options for how to use your vehicles, where to attack from. You can plough through and drop your squads off when your enemy doesn't expect, or more reliably bolster your own squads, even if terrain is in the way. And you can also more easily claim cover saves outside of other vehicles and smoke through the use of ruins.

 

And how much does this amazing upgrade cost? 15pts, surely? Or 10pts? Nope, it's 5pts, just 5pts. On a Vindicator that's nothing, on a Rhino it's very little. 5pts, for what I reckon is one of the best upgrades for vehicles, especially transport vehicles. The only reason why I don't always have mine with dozer blades are that these are upgrades, and as such should be stuck on at the end of the list making process. Unfortunately, I don't have that many dozer blades painted up and able to be pinned on and off my Rhinos, but maybe one day. That being said, I think some people are being a bit harsh about dozer blades. They are infinitely better than dozer blades, better than the one shot that will probably miss HKM, and perhaps better than the extra storm bolter you just stuck onto a transport vehicle.

[ShinyRhino]

I also like dozers, just hate modelling them on because then they don't fit in my Battlefoam trays.

 

As for the "free movement via pivoting", measure form the center point to center point of your vehicle, and you won't have many problems. Just be consistent when measuring, so your opponent doens't get edgy. I know it bugs me when someone measures from the front of a base or vehicle one turn, and then the back or center of it the next turn.

[DarkGuard]

I agree with you about the foam trays. I've only had dozer modelled, and I found a way to get it into the foam tray easily. Basically, I wanted to be able to take it on and off, so just pinned it, one at the top and bottom of each of the contact points it attaches to the vehicle with. Drilled the related holes into the vehicle, and now it can come in and out. Because the pins are at the corners of a rectangle, it doesn't come off during game play (unless you're really rough with it), and can come off for storing in the battlefoam, normally I put mine on the slanted front, fits perfectly there.

[Ming]

Yep, if you ever want to have your dice show you what a 1 looks like, just think the word melta or the word terrain....

 

I have just one dozer blade in my Ultramarine collection - from an old vindicator model.

 

As for driving through terrain (or over wrecked vehicles) I guess it could have a purpose, but for 5 points I'm usually getting another weapon, or for every 2 vehicles, getting another HKM instead. Call me crazy (rolls his eyes...). Murphy's law of dozer blades is that the vehicle you don't put one on is the vehicle that gets stuck, trapping the others or otherwise wrecking your cunning plan....

 

Cheers!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If you're rushing them forward in a wave, consider having the follow-on wave consust of EMPTY Rhinos. The ones you bought for your firebase units, perhaps. That way, if you lose one from the first wave, the second wave can move forward and immediately pick up the displaced passengers.

 

I like the idea but do you normally have the points available to take empty transports?

 

Paulochromis, I like the ummm, "rear to rear" approach :) to protect the AV10 portions.

 

In general, do you find that running heavy tanks in front to absorb incoming fire and provide cover works out better then running the big guys in the back to shoot through the Rhino screen and get their own save? Thinking of something like Vindicators or Baals where you can move/shoot effectively.

 

I'd rather sandwich a Vindi between Rhinos. The Vindi will get shot at, and so the Rhinos mean cover or front AV shots. If you run the Vindis proud of the Rhinos, you are still exposing Vindi AV11 to harm, and so lose the purpose of having a screen anyway....

 

This is from 3++ : Self Blocking

: Advanced Blocking

 

and of course, the counter to all this, so that once your buddies start aping you tactics, you already know how to trump his :)

: Move Blocking

[minigun762]

What do you think about the various firepower upgrades on the Rhinos? Ming mentioned the HK missiles but what about Storm, TL Bolters or the various Combi-weapons? On one hand the added firepower on all of your transports make them more of a threat just by themselves but it also adds more points to an already high importance target.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

What do you think about the various firepower upgrades on the Rhinos? Ming mentioned the HK missiles but what about Storm, TL Bolters or the various Combi-weapons? On one hand the added firepower on all of your transports make them more of a threat just by themselves but it also adds more points to an already high importance target.

 

Templar Rhinos, with XA and Smoke are 58 pts. Given our high starting points for Rhinos and having to buy Smoke, XA for cheap doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

 

But the weapons are all too dear. I think all the weapons are the same or more, which I think is too much, even on the el cheapo Ultramarine Rhinos.

[DarkGuard]

What do you think about the various firepower upgrades on the Rhinos? Ming mentioned the HK missiles but what about Storm, TL Bolters or the various Combi-weapons? On one hand the added firepower on all of your transports make them more of a threat just by themselves but it also adds more points to an already high importance target.

 

I'm not a big fan. I don't like putting another weapon onto a transport vehicle that requires to be moving. Rhinos are not meant to shoot, they are only meant to move their cargo to the right place. With the firepoint, you get another couple of guns right there. Sure you can't fire them if moving 12", but you can't fire any guns when moving 12", even storm bolters. IMO, for the points increase, turning the Rhino from transport vehicle to gun/transport vehicle, like a Razorback, is not a good idea. Upgrades like dozer blades and extra are the best as they help empower movement, which they should be doing. Unfortunately, most Marine Codices now have very expensive extra armour, so the dozer blade is the only option. That being said a C:SM Rhino with EA and a dozer blade costs 55pts, and has smoke and searchlight compared to the C:BT 58pt Rhino which has the above except I believe the searchlight and dozer blade, so we do still have it easy in comparison.

 

As for Razorbacks, remember they are transports, but I do believe a storm bolter on a heavy bolter Razorback isn't the worst buy in the world, defensive weapon so you can fire at 6", and I tend to play my Razorbacks advancing more slowly behind the rush of Rhinos, only moving fast when I have to.

[ShinyRhino]

I never buy additional storm bolters for Rhinos, unless it's a fun list. No real utility to them. Two additional S4, AP5 shots won't make a difference in anything but the most desperate or crazy situation. 999 times out of 1000, that extra stormbolter won't do anything of note.

When being fired at by antitank guns, the odds are that your Rhino will take penetrating hits more often than glancing hits, which is where extra armor shines. It's an upgrade that costs 50% of the cost of a Rhino, but only has an effect on 1/6 damage results.

I used to run an HK or two on my Rhinos, but found that they either missed too often, or failed to affect the target. I no longer use them.

 

Extra stormbolters on heavy bolter Razorbacks, or Dakkapredators are solid buys, though. Those vehicles are going to be stationary, or moving 6". That allows the stormbolter to fire in addition to the main guns, so it's a solid points investment.

[BlackSheep]

storm bolters always fire Shiny. Defensive weapons.

[Pigchampion]

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/05/rhino-tactica/

 

A good read with pics, check it out.

[DarkGuard]

storm bolters always fire Shiny. Defensive weapons.

 

Not quite. Storm bolters always fire if you can fire a weapon, as they are defensive. If your Rhino cannot fire weapons after moving 12" (which it can't if it's not a BA one) then you can't fire the storm bolters. Defensive just means you can always fire at the same time as main weapons, you're still restricted by movement speed. Trust me, I know, and if I could fire after moving 12" I'd be more likely to take additional storm bolters.

[BearersOfSalvation]

storm bolters always fire Shiny. Defensive weapons.

 

Storm bolters don't fire if you move full speed or pop smoke, which is pretty common for rhinos. Defensive weapons only fire if you can fire a regular weapon.

[BlackSheep]

just testing you all. I don't think I've ever had a non-fast transport. :)

[Agent Purple]

Couple of thoughts on this thread and some releveant other recent postings:

 

1. Measurement for movement distance occurs before pivoting. You move that vehicle in a direction more than intended and you might be pooping plastic bits for a week. Just wanted to get that out there. I don't care how many times you pivot - just don't move further than the rules intended. I recognize some are using this as a means to get a few extra inches (as many as 4 or 6!) out every movement phase...c'mon! Try winning without cheating sometime! You will maybe sleep better for it!

 

I had a GW staff member try to convince me that moving like this was legal once (deploy vehicle sideways, pivot forwards (+1/2 vehicle length), measure move, place vehicle sideways at end of move, pivot forwards again (+1/2 vehicle length).

 

Although I agree that you can pivot before/after you move to get an extra half vehicle length in a particular direction, I asked him to show me how he pivoted according to the rules to wind up sideways at the end of his vehicle move. He couldn't but said the rules didn't say your opponent must show you where they pivot. He kept insisting someone from regional HQ had told him it was legal. Then again, while I was there he also told a customer that lelith hesperax had WS10 and a 3+ invulnerable all the time (both of which are false)....

 

This was only a theoretical discussion, but I'd probably never play the guy.

[Koremu]

How useful you find 'dozer blades depends on how dense the terrain you play on is (and how much of it is woods/ruins as opposed to intact buildings).

[DarkGuard]

@Agent Purple, you have to pivot in the middle of the vehicle, so if he was pivoting at the front then it is illegal. The pivot move only works for the first turn, after that you're moving the same distance if you're moving forward.

 

@Koremu, that's perhaps the fairest answer on dozer blades. We tend to have a bit of terrain, especially when the vehicles get destroyed and flipped upside down, so having dozer blades on the more important vehicles which could really do with moving through cover is desirable. May I also say good to see around again, I haven't seen you around much on the forums recently.

[Koremu]

Yeah I've not been around for a while, busy with Real Life for the last 6 months.

 

You can thank gc08 for my reappearance - he sent me a DM which got echo'd to my email inbox