timff8 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Dear B&C: I've been a long-time Blood Angels collector. I got them as soon as they got their brand-new, not-Angels-of-Death codex, and have played them ever since. I'm proud to say that I played them through good times, and played them through the PDF codex that made anything non-Special-Character useless. I'm now playing them through their 5th Edition dex, and like them very much. Then Grey Knights came out. 20 points for marines w. storm bolters, force weapons, and a second power. 55 points for Librarians in terminator armor that are a squad, not IC's. Add in awesome psycannons, S8 Riflemen, and customizeable(gasp!) characters and I'm dumbstruck. The more I think about them, the more angry and more defeated I feel. Why should I bother trying to assault an army that gets force weapons on everything? Why should I bother trying to out-maneuver an army that can just shoot me to death first? And why oh why taking characters, when ANY Grey Knight can just instantly kill them? Is there any reason NOT to quit now and save myself the embarassment of trying to play against Grey Knights? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dylan Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I think you should try facing them rather than look at it and say I'm done there's nothing I can do. For all those things that are great and shiny the grey knights pay for every bit of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 GK are not unbeatable. They are pretty well balanced actually. Here is a tip. Play cautiously against them, if you give them an opportunity, they will make it hurt. Don't give them an opportunity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Or in other words, shoot the close combat stuff and close combat the shooty stuff. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Or in other words, shoot the close combat stuff and close combat the shooty stuff. :) Actually, as a novice I could see this age old chestnut being a bit difficult to employ against GK. It's easy to look at a genestealer and conclude that it is indeed a punchy model. But looking at a squad with both force weapons and assault weapons, as well as a mixture of psychic abilities, it's hard to reach any definite conclusion on the punchy-shooty meter. Could just be my lack of experience though. But yeah, for all the bells and whistles of the dex, just trying to hammer out a dozen different lists or so was enough to realize how much the GK have to pay for all those fancy toys and abilities. As far as numbers go, it seems quite balanced. And let's not forget, there were very similar cries of doom and impending futility when the new BA dex came out. And when the new SW dex came out. And so on, and so on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabadin Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Dear B&C: I've been a long-time Blood Angels collector. I got them as soon as they got their brand-new, not-Angels-of-Death codex, and have played them ever since. I'm proud to say that I played them through good times, and played them through the PDF codex that made anything non-Special-Character useless. I'm now playing them through their 5th Edition dex, and like them very much. Then Grey Knights came out. 20 points for marines w. storm bolters, force weapons, and a second power. 55 points for Librarians in terminator armor that are a squad, not IC's. Add in awesome psycannons, S8 Riflemen, and customizeable(gasp!) characters and I'm dumbstruck. The more I think about them, the more angry and more defeated I feel. Why should I bother trying to assault an army that gets force weapons on everything? Why should I bother trying to out-maneuver an army that can just shoot me to death first? And why oh why taking characters, when ANY Grey Knight can just instantly kill them? Is there any reason NOT to quit now and save myself the embarassment of trying to play against Grey Knights? All I have to say is this; Outflanking/Scouting Flamestorm Baal Predators Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Dear B&C: Is there any reason NOT to quit now and save myself the embarassment of trying to play against Grey Knights? Nope. Be afraid, be very afraid. The Knights are coming for you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Shush, Valerian. :cuss The Grey Knights are an incredibly well-balanced codex, once you get over the sometimes literal ooh, aah, shiney effect. Almost everything that could be a doom list has a downside, such as Paladins and their excessive cost plus lack of Storm Shields, or Purifiers and the Crowe tax. With every readthrough of the codex, I like it more and more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmach Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Exactly what they're saying, use those fast baal predators that can outflank or get a scout move of 18 and get that flamestorm cannon up there. Also assault the units that have swords with your furious charge and stay away from the ones that you see have halberds if you're that worried. Also furioso dreads are amazing with their armor 13, not to mention the fast vindicators that can be used. Yea we have psycannons but they have a 24" range, plenty of working room for that shiny fast vindicator. Yea you won't get to use your feel no pain in close combat but you're still a marine that is cheaper, has access to more attacks, on power armor troop choices and has easily obtainable furious charge, not to mention the feel no pain against shooting which seems pretty good. Blood angels have the best chance out of any marine to stand up to shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquid Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Basic Greyknights do have force weapons, but they are only S4 S4 and one attack each. If they increase any of those, their cost skyrockets. I've played against Grey Knights a few times with my Necrons. They are a very numerically small army and are no tougher then any other marine. They even lack additional bonus's like storm shields. Against shooting, they are toast. Even in combat, if you outnumber him you'll win combat on the charge. Especially if you get furious charge bonus's. Well within reason however. I've won more game against them then I've lost. Dooming and glooming about stats on paper and playing the army in person are two totally different things. If you have a decent list you should be able to take on Grey Knights fine. They have more offensive power, but die like any other marine. Only difference is there is less of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Dear B&C: I've been a long-time Blood Angels collector. I got them as soon as they got their brand-new, not-Angels-of-Death codex, and have played them ever since. I'm proud to say that I played them through good times, and played them through the PDF codex that made anything non-Special-Character useless. I'm now playing them through their 5th Edition dex, and like them very much. Then Grey Knights came out. 20 points for marines w. storm bolters, force weapons, and a second power. 55 points for Librarians in terminator armor that are a squad, not IC's. Add in awesome psycannons, S8 Riflemen, and customizeable(gasp!) characters and I'm dumbstruck. The more I think about them, the more angry and more defeated I feel. Why should I bother trying to assault an army that gets force weapons on everything? Why should I bother trying to out-maneuver an army that can just shoot me to death first? And why oh why taking characters, when ANY Grey Knight can just instantly kill them? Is there any reason NOT to quit now and save myself the embarassment of trying to play against Grey Knights? All I have to say is this; Outflanking/Scouting Flamestorm Baal Predators You clearly aren't a competitive BA player or you would know it is such a bad unit. Past that though BAs have ways of dealing with grey knights. Unless they have halbards you should be able to beat them on the charge and with FnP weather their shooting, use your speed and fast vehicles to stay out of range and number them down. It is not a lost cause playing the knights, they seem very well balanced. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 20 points for marines w. storm bolters, force weapons, and a second power. They're really just power weapons until they go up against multiple wound models. 55 points for Librarians in terminator armor that are a squad, not IC's. They're not quite Librarians. One power, either +1 strength or a large blast that you get armor saves against. Add in awesome psycannons, S8 Riflemen, and customizeable(gasp!) characters and I'm dumbstruck. Yep, psycannons rock, and Psyflemen are cool, and so are the characters. But they really don't replace melta, nor do the characters outshine yours. Why should I bother trying to assault an army that gets force weapons on everything? Because they only have 1 attack each and you're getting 3+. Why should I bother trying to out-maneuver an army that can just shoot me to death first? Any army can shoot you to death first. That shouldn't stop you from trying to outmaneuver them. And why oh why taking characters, when ANY Grey Knight can just instantly kill them? Take characters that benefit your army as a whole and that have Invulnerable saves so they won't just auto-die like Mephiston would, and apply them cautiously to assaults. Is there any reason NOT to quit now and save myself the embarassment of trying to play against Grey Knights? Plenty. You're looking at the Grey Knight's shiny toys in a vacuum and not looking at them in terms of relativity. Grey Knights are cool, yes. They're also very expensive for the toys they get. 200 points for a bare bones "tactical" squad without a transport; 260 points for a bare bones "assault" squad. And while they do have one free upgrade each, most everything else costs 10 to 20 points, easily adding multipliers to the unit's cost. That 200 point squad will get torn to bits by one of your assault units, especially if you give that squad Furious Charge. A bit of mathammer for the worst case scenario; you charge a unit of Grey Knights with Halberds, Psybolts, a couple Psycannons, and a Rhino. This squad costs about 320 points. Even worse, lets assume your unit has suffered a couple casualties already and is only attacking with 8 models, and you fail to kill any of the Grey Knights with your bolt pistol fire before the charge. The Grey Knights have 11 attacks, hit 5.5 times, cause 2.75 wounds (we'll call it 3.) Your 5 models remaining, armed with basic gear and one fist, inflict 2.57 unsaved wounds. If you lose the combat, its by 1. And that's just one of your basic squads, not at full strength, with Furious Charge, which weighs in at way less than 320 points. (Even if you wanted to argue the Sanguinary Priest's costs into the total, its still less, and he's benefitting much more than just this one squad.) Instead of seeing only what the Grey Knights can do, look at what you can do against the Grey Knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Interesting, your experience must differ with mine. Most of the Blood Angel players I know love the mobile toasters. Any particular reason you dislike them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorider2 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 If you were playing in the pdf days, no reason to not play against GKs. GKs have some advantages but not all, the BA dex is still pretty solid and can do several things GK can't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
timff8 Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Wow, two and a half hours and I feel a lot better. Thanks a ton, everyone. I know I'm acting very frantic, and I'll stop now. I run a couple different lists, and I think they all have some tricks in them, so I'm a lot more confident now. Thanks to everyone who posted. I got really depressed when I'd be reading a thread that was about how Grey Knights had achilles heels that could be exploited, and then a GK player would come on and explain how GKs are the best codex ever and I was retarded for playing my original army and not upgrading to the best marines. So, thanks to all for yanking me out of my funk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 No problem amigo. I'm personally looking forward to shooting the heck out of Grey Knights with my Blood Angels :P And doing the same to other people whilst using my Grey Knights ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Pinata Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Well as a GK player with the new dex, yes it is fun, and seems really powered, but the numbers are ridiculous, not to mention it's decently hard to have along range anti-tank. With the lack of numbers, I have very little objective holders. BA have the assault squad w/Chaplin and Sang combo; power puncher and objective taker. I know it's dangerous against force weapons, but the furious charge, power weapons, and liturgies of blood will rip through units (I play BA as well... I essetially play all the armies of humanity in the 5th ed, only one space marine chapter though.). If all else fails... your fast Vindicators will rip through Grey Knights like no tomorrow, and they will have little to defend against it. Thunderhammer termies with Sang will be deadly too... Mephestion would die... just a thought. Space Wolves are another story... hard as **** to defeat with knights... I just tried earlier today Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 its strange but i panicked at first when i saw the GK.. luckily most of the GK players are grounded in respect to the abilities and points in the new dex, it makes it easier when they help us look at the pros and cons of thier own units its a great dex but not overpowered.. i stopped worrying when i saw one of my 5 man scout squads jump from a land speeder and cream 5 strike knights with halberds.. one attack each is pants even at I6 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Yawn, another GK hate thread. Why not add your $0.02 to an existing thread instead of starting your own that says the same thing as all the rest? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Why should I bother trying to assault an army that gets force weapons on everything? GK are not an assault army . It is easier to break them in hth then kill them by shoting , specialy for BAs. also if Force weapons are such a huge problem for you , then stop using mefisto. Why should I bother trying to out-maneuver an army that can just shoot me to death first? Dont play doa it was a failed army concept to begin with . other option is to live with that. only good non mecha lists in w40k 5th ed are shoty. And why oh why taking characters, when ANY Grey Knight can just instantly kill them? then take unimportant cheap ones for just support or take ones like sang , who cant be ID. Is there any reason NOT to quit now and save myself the embarassment of trying to play against Grey Knights? If you didnt learn how to play with BA since the dex came out , considering there were both IG[shotiers then BA] and SW[which can either be shotier or out assault BAs] then it is probably a good time to quit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 As both GK and BA player I will admit that my normal BA list would have difficulty facing my GK army. Mostly because it lacks long range firepower (GK are good at shooting at 24" but beyond that it becomes much harder). However there are still plenty of options in the BA dex that should work well against GK armies. Things in the BA dex I think will do well against GK: Talons dreads; the only real threat they'll face are psycannons, hammers and the occasional vindicare, of which the latter has a chance of not even getting to attack in melee. Vindicators; Actually any weapon with low ap and S8+ will do well against GK. They have the same weaknesses as dreads, though hammers have less chance to hit while they move more then 6". Plasma honour guard; against paladins you'd probably want melta's instead but against normal GK squads plasma will be plenty. Librarians; Actually a must have against GK, normal squads have LD9 (or LD8 without justicar) so you have a pretty good chance of stopping hammerhand. Things you shouldn't do: Charge assault squads into grandmasters/anyone with rad or defensive grenades; Seriously I've played against a friend who borrowed my blood angels and charge a Strike Squad with a Grandmaster with both rad and blind grenades and 4 halberds and counter charge. The entire BA squad died without doing damage. Bolter shoot outs; Storm bolters are better at shootouts then normal bolters especially if they have psybolt ammo. If you want to hold a shootout use plasma/melta weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Yawn, another GK hate thread. Why not add your $0.02 to an existing thread instead of starting your own that says the same thing as all the rest? You obviously missed the OP's second post in the thread >.> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rider-75 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 i've had very good success so far againt the GK with my BT. oddly for a BT army it tends to involve shooting the c**p outta them before they get too close, then piling in with buckets of attacks and slicing and dicing to finish them off. I do generally have the advantage of weight of numbers - a rarity as most of the other armies in teh group are marines of one flavour or another too and this strategy has so far paid off. it won't last though, the guy is developing countertactics and i'm slowly losing ground in the degree of win. what does suck though is his consistant force-weaponing the Emp Champ unto death. it makes for some very angry templars!! damn witches! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 There's plenty of things B.A can do to GK. Beat models without halberds due to furious charge and weight of attacks. The Sangunior beats most GK into submission, only exception being Paladins. Flamestorm Baals. One more time, flamestorm BAAALS! Or, Flamebaals! Death company dreads. Yeah, really. Blood Talons make GK's piss themselves. Plasmacannon devs are viable in our 'dex. The only real problem are halberds and paladins, those we don't have any real answers for, save rolling well with meltaguns and inferno pistols. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Nope. Be afraid, be very afraid. The Knights are coming for you. ... OOGY BOOGY BOO! DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229596-grey-knights-best-of-the-best-of-the-best/#findComment-2755976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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