musings on a future dex...

[GeoWolf]

While reading the posts on the new DEldar topic I ran across a post from Lexington. He was commenting on how their codex is, what with the different factions present. You can do warriors, wyches or the haemonculi covens. You can mix the parts as you see fit to make your army.

 

Now, do you think that gw could do the next chaos codex like this? Maybe they are testing the idea to see how to tweak it. I can see how it could work, what do you all think?

[Lord_Caerolion]

You mean like they included Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh all together in this one?

[GeoWolf]

Sort of. The gods have always been there, I was more thinking along the lines of renegades verses traitors. You could probably get daemons in and could bring back the lost and the damned as well.

 

Think about it, mono god elite lists for traitors, renegades could be as now, LatD with traitor guard and mutants, and "horde" daemons along the lines of sld. Could be interesting.

[Kristoff]

But one of many things on the standard Chaos wishlist, actually.

[A D-B]

While reading the posts on the new DEldar topic I ran across a post from Lexington. He was commenting on how their codex is, what with the different factions present. You can do warriors, wyches or the haemonculi covens. You can mix the parts as you see fit to make your army.

 

Now, do you think that gw could do the next chaos codex like this? Maybe they are testing the idea to see how to tweak it. I can see how it could work, what do you all think?

 

To some degree, that's what the Chaos Codex actually did. The rules were just simplified a little too much for most tastes, units aren't balanced well against each other (making some choices obviously better than others), and there was very little background information to provide structure for the possible armies. But it most definitely allowed equivalent armies of "all X covens" or forces made of X, Y and Z. It just provided little in the way of rules for how to make forces different from each other. We're talking homogenization, really.

 

This is such a dangerous topic for debate. It so often devolves into massive exaggeration on why the codex doesn't work for us. The real reasons perceived, the real analysis, is enough.

[Valkyrion]

The Chaos Codex has done that already.

I think the Imperial Guard got the biggest kick in the nuts in that regard, because now there is no functional difference between any Imperial Guard regiment and the next.

 

In the Chaos Codex you can make a fully functioning mono god army that is relatively balanced within itself. What you can't do is make a non god original legion very well.

In the Dark Eldar codex you can have a Wych army if you want.

Via any of the marine codices you can get whatever theme you want; bikes, terminators, mech, semi-horde, outflanking, deep striking etc

The Imperial Guard are just cadians with green vests, swanky uniforms or ponchos.

Sure you can make a theme with them, but a single outflanking troops choice does not a Tallarn army make.

 

All GW need to do with the next chaos codex is rerelease the good 3rd ed codex with updated rules and points. All the work is already there and it's proven to work within its context.

[Kristoff]

To some degree, that's what the Chaos Codex actually did. The rules were just simplified a little too much for most tastes, units aren't balanced well against each other (making some choices obviously better than others), and there was very little background information to provide structure for the possible armies. But it most definitely allowed equivalent armies of "all X covens" or forces made of X, Y and Z. It just provided little in the way of rules for how to make forces different from each other. We're talking homogenization, really.

 

I'd have to disagree to a point. While it is possible to take most infantry as "Marked" or devoted to a Chaos God, a player can't make an army that has Cult units outside of Troops. In small enough games, this is easy enough to do, but when you start getting in to the larger games where the Elites start coming in, then you notice that the Chosen and Terminators don't have those options, and while they aren't taken often, neither do the Fast Attack or Havocs have that option, either. The unique weapons of some of the Cults are no longer options for the vehicles, either.

 

So, while you can "play it on tv", the current codex is really a bit short of the mark as to allowing the full breadth that Chaos Marines should deliver.

[Valkyrion]

You can though give all of the infantry units an Icon, so you can make your khorne army with +1 A, or your nurgle with +1 T.

 

The Cult Troops are just a representation of one facet of that original legion - the Khorne Berzerkers actually are mind altered to be berzerk, the Noise Marines are those who take the pleasure thing too far etc. There will be plenty of Cult followers are aren't as insane as the traditional Cult troops.

 

If you take some terminators and give them a Mark then they become Cult units. They might not gain furious charge or inferno bolts, but they are still Cult.

[Kristoff]

You can though give all of the infantry units an Icon, so you can make your khorne army with +1 A, or your nurgle with +1 T.

 

The Cult Troops are just a representation of one facet of that original legion - the Khorne Berzerkers actually are mind altered to be berzerk, the Noise Marines are those who take the pleasure thing too far etc. There will be plenty of Cult followers are aren't as insane as the traditional Cult troops.

 

If you take some terminators and give them a Mark then they become Cult units. They might not gain furious charge or inferno bolts, but they are still Cult.

 

They are no more Cult than giving the same Icon to a standard Chaos Space Marine squad, or a Biker squad, or whatever. If they had left out the Cult Troops, then this technically wouldn't be the complaint (it would instead be a complaint about how the Mark was completely nerfed), but no, they included Cult Troops, but then said to everyone who had Rubric Terminators and Noise Havocs, no, you're not legal any more, you have to be the same as every other Chaos Terminator or Havoc, but be Chaos-on-a-stick.

[the jeske]

I think the Imperial Guard got the biggest kick in the nuts in that regard, because now there is no functional difference between any Imperial Guard regiment and the next.

 

In the Chaos Codex you can make a fully functioning mono god army that is relatively balanced within itself

IG was hit by anything 0_0. all regiments use vets . all regiments use chimeras all use valks all use hydras. now try to make a mono list without oblits being hvy support . LR rush may work with zerkers , but not with 1ksons or NM . Or do by balance you mean nid/de balance , which more or less means weaker army builds?

 

 

 

In the Dark Eldar codex you can have a Wych army if you want.

you know technicly I can make a NM army too , and it will suck just like a wych cult army. [well more because I will have more or less 1 troop 1 hq as option +tanks].

 

 

realy saying that IG lost options and that is has it worse then DA or chaos , is something I have never heared before . A dex with various viable options . more then 2 builds [we dont even have that] . what is next SW being the second most dex because they lost the eye of terror sub list ?

 

Sure you can make a theme with them, but a single outflanking troops choice does not a Tallarn army make.

at least you have a working tallaran special and you can make a tallaran army and it will be different in game play , then if you lets say based your army around psyker squads.

NM or 1ksons are just weaker versions of PMs/zerker/BL list , while undivided armies have 0 difference in game play[or they do and then the list dont work ].

All GW need to do with the next chaos codex is rerelease the good 3rd ed codex with updated rules and points.

 

dude .... the JJ dex , you call it good ? the dex even GW viewed as a fail and had to do IA articles fast because chaos wasnt played at all ?

[Brother Ambroz]

This codex isn't that bad for making mono-god or BL lists, but anything else say if you were trying to make a undivided tourney list just wouldn't be very competitive. Our elite and FA selections aren't very good at all. I've been having a difficult time trying to decide what to get next since all my troop HS and HQ choices are used up. The FA choices are just horribly overpriced for what they do and the elites well just aren't really "elite".

[Whitefireinferno]

Rule one of being a chaos Player is #1 - Always complain that you codex is bad and should just be the Ironwarriors codex of 3.5 and Rule 2 is #2 - Rules have to make your army have character

 

what I have noticed is Chaos players just like to complain that they cant use the 3.5 codex anymore and from those days I dont remember seeing a great deal of armies that were not Iron Warriors so yeah I have been slowly building a Chaos army a combined Red Corsair and IW warband Oh noes there is not special rules for my units the world is caving in around me BAAWW BAWW

 

Like Seriously If you can make a themed army from your codex you might as well quit the hobby ( this is my opinion so don't go getting all Butthurt about it) or get a new army .

[GeoWolf]

Hmm, I agree with some things stated, and disagree with others. Yes, this codex tried to streamline and simplify things, and we can agree it fell short. Yes, we can make mono god lists, mixed lists, black legion, and other lists (which some will say do or don't exist, but that is not the debate here) but we are pretty shoe horned into playing what the codex wants.

 

Now, I think I should explain my intent with my original post. What I meant was that with the DEldar you can make lists from what seems to be three factions in one army. This is before looking at how the special characters make certain units better. Again, I'm not debating the viability of these lists, just noting they are there. You could do all warriors, with raiders and ravagers. Wyches in venoms and relying on web way portals. Whole covens of beastmasters or a sea of twisted flesh. Then, on top of those options, you have others that don't fit do nicely. Scourged, helions and mandrakes for example. Over 21 different units, not counting the characters.

 

This is what I'm getting at. CSM has 20 before characters, and some don't see the light of day except for apocalypse or sentimentality. But some are missing. The mutants and renegade guard. The hard bitten veterans from the past trying to kill your future. The adepts that create the inconceivable from insanity.

 

If you look at it, maybe gw is trying what they did before with our codex. Putting multiple factions down with some extra and going with it. The grey knight codex does this too now that I think of it, but on a more narrow scope I think.

 

I don't know, I can envision a chaos codex shaped like the DEldar. Different factions, all under the gods dark whims. Heretics driven before hate filled astartes. A capricious daemon using mutants and rogue psykers to burn a world. Technology that has now sane reason to function but certainty does as it smashes reality apart. You could do just traitor or renegade marines, just traitor guard, just dark mechanicum. But that would be not only viable, but up to the player. Mix, match, hire, enslave, whatever your fluff dictates.

 

Maybe its just me, too much time in the warp perhaps.

[Kristoff]

I don't know, I can envision a chaos codex shaped like the DEldar. Different factions, all under the gods dark whims. Heretics driven before hate filled astartes. A capricious daemon using mutants and rogue psykers to burn a world. Technology that has now sane reason to function but certainty does as it smashes reality apart. You could do just traitor or renegade marines, just traitor guard, just dark mechanicum. But that would be not only viable, but up to the player. Mix, match, hire, enslave, whatever your fluff dictates.

 

I see them coming out as a cross between how you see DE, and how the Ultramarines codex is set up. But I admit, I do like this vision that you present.

[the jeske]

Rule one of being a chaos Player is #1 - Always complain that you codex is bad and should just be the Ironwarriors codex of 3.5 and Rule 2 is #2 - Rules have to make your army have character

 

what I have noticed is Chaos players just like to complain that they cant use the 3.5 codex anymore and from those days I dont remember seeing a great deal of armies that were not Iron Warriors so yeah I have been slowly building a Chaos army a combined Red Corsair and IW warband Oh noes there is not special rules for my units the world is caving in around me BAAWW BAWW

 

Like Seriously If you can make a themed army from your codex you might as well quit the hobby ( this is my opinion so don't go getting all Butthurt about it) or get a new army .

 

yeah nice talking from a BA player who had first the top tier and viable WD codex list and then got the 5th ed codex that while weaker then BA in 4th ed gives more options to builds . Do a searchy and look how the chaos forum looked like 3-4 years ago , how much list/fluff/own warband was talked about here . Then go check the last two years and then come back saying we BAAWW. How many viable HQ you have ? does your FA/elite slot exist , because ours doesnt ? or how about hvy support , more then one good option ? Go play for a year or two with an army that has 0 chance of improvment , where builds no matter what you take are either bad or copy of each other . The we talk about baawing. But yeah GW strangly never :cusss up loyalist dex , unless its JJ doing the DAs again[even there they can fix stuff or make viable builds because he doesnt know what he realy desings] .

 

 

Excluding the fact that some people ended up witha rmies that are 90% not legal anymore [and were not addon armies like the ones in armagedon or eye of terror dex] , what the hell are we suppose to be happy about ?

A BA can make a LR rush a razor build , a DoA[even if it sucks at top tier] , if he is mad enough he can even do a drop pod army or a SR alfa strike build . That is not how stuff suppose to be . The desing team starting with the DA dex told us that the number of options/builds will drop . Only no dex after us was like that . Even dex that were tested at the same time or before ours have more options . And what about the promised legion stuff . Gav told us that the options were butchered like they were , because there was plans for "legion stuff"[and unless they ment the apo formations or FW stuff by that , then it didnt happen].

 

Ah and one more thing dude. what do you think if all chaos players just bent over to GW and kept silent about the :cussed up job they made with the dex , do you think that the new dex would be anything else then a copy past of the gav one ?

[Possessed Marine]

+1 to the jeske

[Brother Ambroz]

+1 to the jeske

 

I second that. +2 now :cuss

[Mr. Sandbot]

+1 to the jeske

 

I second that. +2 now :lol:

 

+3.

 

 

As for being on topic, I think GW won't follow that path. What I think they will do is implement a "if you buy x wargear then your troops can do x and y". Kinda like how in marine dex if you buy a bike for your HQ then your troops can bikers too. Failing that, they'll probably follow the special character path that has been present in so many codices now.

[Sangneur]

+1 to the jeske

 

I second that. +2 now :)

 

+3.

 

 

As for being on topic, I think GW won't follow that path. What I think they will do is implement a "if you buy x wargear then your troops can do x and y". Kinda like how in marine dex if you buy a bike for your HQ then your troops can bikers too. Failing that, they'll probably follow the special character path that has been present in so many codices now.

 

And you have my axe! (+4. Note that this is cumulative with the bonus for wielding two close combat weapons!)

 

I really don't think that putting lots of effort into the legions and renegades is necessary, a couple of additions and the cult troops will suffice. If the DE book is an indication, I'd say that our book would be divided into CSM, Daemons, and Mortal servants.

[Spacefrisian]

Chaos Spawns in fast attack says it all to me.... a fast attack option with slow and purposefull.

[BlkTom]

I have to say +5.

 

I haven't played since 1st/2nd Ed. The person I ended up playing against the most to re-learn the rules with is a Blood Angels player. I had Ork, Eldar, IG, Chaos, and Marine and bought the codexs for each to re-work my existing figs into these lists. This gave me the option to really compare those codexs (and the BA one from playing against it all the time). I have to honestly say the Codex I am most disappointed with is the Chaos codex.

 

I can see what they were trying to do, but just failed to achieve the goal. They wanted to allow people to play mono God lists, create or play as renegade, or mix and match freely between the Gods while still allowing demons and customizable HQ and units with a few unique units (Oblits and Demolishers) while allowing their own twists on Marine units. What they failed in doing is on the moral side of things... like they didn't even think about that all these super expensive units (really on par with Marine costs) would stay in the fight with Ld 9 alone. It is the lack of Marine Tactics that ends up destroying the flexibility of the units. You look at any unit that isn't Fearless and have to ignore any flavor and go Mark of Chaos Glory for the Leadership re-roll or not even take it. There is also the costs of these Icons as well, turning a 150pt unit into 200pts really adds up. Then if a unit can't take a Icon? Now your dealing with TNT.

 

Most loyalist marine players don't even think of Ld rolls, or contemplate their importance because it is such a non-factor with them. Mind you I am not complaining about Combat Tactics, but I feel like GW didn't realize that the other guy might, you know, shoot you and stuff. You have to run Oblits just like Deffkoptas because you know if you run more than 2 in a unit you risk watching them run away. At least in a Ork army you can handle this, you really can't in a Chaos army. I mean, Orks don't even need koptas and have viable options to replace them if they want. Orks, IG, even Eldar are given alot of ways to deal with moral rolls or recover from it... none of which exists in the Chaos codex.

 

It is a sad day when a 4th Ed Codex like Eldar is still a viable codex and a /better/ codex than a 5th Ed one.

[Iron Lord]

Technically, both Codex Eldar and Codex Chaos Marines are 4E- 5E came out a few months after Codex CSM did.

 

But yes- the codex needs beefing up.

 

The Eldar Codex managed to (roughly) replicate the Craftworld Eldar minicodex, with an approximate equivalent to the Seer Council (warlock unit takable if you take a Farseer) Pathfinders, Wraithguard as Troops (if you take 10 in a unit) and Jetbikes as troops. The only Craftworld that didn't get its signature unit was Biel-tan- and they got Autarchs, which appeared in the Epic Biel-tan army.

 

Codex CSM seems like they tried to achieve the same customizability- and failed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I really don't think that putting lots of effort into the legions and renegades is necessary, a couple of additions and the cult troops will suffice. If the DE book is an indication, I'd say that our book would be divided into CSM, Daemons, and Mortal servants.

 

I don't really see the logic here. Dark Eldar have always been the Kabals, Cults and Covens, so saying that the new book will include mortals and daemons because of that is like saying the Chaos Lords will be able to bring blessings down on friendly troops, because Imperial Guard can use Orders.

 

The only Craftworld that didn't get its signature unit was Biel-tan

I guess you missed the fact that Eldar got Dire Avengers moved to Troops, so you could have an all-Aspect army, you know... like a Biel-Tan army.

[BlkTom]

Err... thanks for updating me on the edition of the Codex, I thought it was 5th. And I think I was talking about And They Shall Know No Fear as well as Combat Tactics, I just forgot to add it in.

[Brother Nihm]

I am guessing you meant

If you cannot make a themed army from your codex you might as well quit the hobby ( this is my opinion so don't go getting all Butthurt about it) or get a new army.

Even then, that feels incredibly ignorant of you, which I am sure is not the case.

 

Imagine if you had to use the current Codex Space Marines with no viable elite options, FA choices, and had 1 viable HQ slot, plus added rules sprinkled throughout the book that either break or overcost 50% of the units.

Now imagine that Codex: Blood Angels did not exist anymore because it was lumped into the aforementioned C:SM, would you like that?

 

My guess is you wouldn't.

 

Now imagine some smart alec coming along to semi-troll you (maybe unintentionally), after you've been trying to "make it work" for 3-4 years now, trying to field fluffy lists and still do well on the tabletop, only to hit the same brick wall over and over.

 

Would you enjoy that?

 

Again,

 

My guess is you wouldn't.