Alvarius Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I don't know if it's the right place for this question, but I'll try it anyway. The dark eldar have a arcane wargear item called The CRUCIBLE of MALEDICTION. It's a "one shot" item that when used forces EVERY PSYKER within 3D6" to take a Ld test or be removed from play with so saves of any kind. My question is, how does this affect the GK with their brotherhood of psykers - as they all are psykers. Does that meen that every grey knight within the 3D6 radius must take the test and is then removed if he fails? Or is that 1 Ld test per unit (as with using psychic powers) and if failed, the whole squad gets removed? Or did I get it wrong? If it was true, then the Dark Eldar could possibly remove whole squads of GK (or at least many of them at one). Anybody's got a clue? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Brotherhood of Psykers specifies that any specifically anti-psyker attack only effects the squad leader (or a random model if they squad leader is already dead) on any infantry squad. Crucible of Malediction is an attack that specifically targets psykers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvarius Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Hmm... even then it's nasty. As far as I know, the Dread knight also counts as a psyker. Is that right? (don't have access to a GK dex :/ ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Yea I'd say it's actually the opposite; GK are the bane of DE. The crucible only affects one model at a time. GK can move and shoot faster and harder. Even the basic troopers with a minimal upgrade can down the heaviest DE vehicle, while the reverse is not true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Yea I'd say it's actually the opposite; GK are the bane of DE. The crucible only affects one model at a time. They're probably more a bane to the Tau than anyone else thanks to being immune to plasma based weapons now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 That being said, a suicide unit with the Crucible can be a great way to assassinate GK characters and Dread Knights (as the average roll on 3D6 is 10.5, meaning the average roll will fail a Leadership 10 test). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Yea I'd say it's actually the opposite; GK are the bane of DE. The crucible only affects one model at a time. They're probably more a bane to the Tau than anyone else thanks to being immune to plasma based weapons now. Immune to plasma is a bit of an exaggeration; you have to buy a specific, not that commonly used, HQ and then buy a piece of wargear that's of questionable utility in an all-comers list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvarius Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 That being said, a suicide unit with the Crucible can be a great way to assassinate GK characters and Dread Knights (as the average roll on 3D6 is 10.5, meaning the average roll will fail a Leadership 10 test). DV8 That's 3d6 range not a Ld test on 3d6. All in all, to the GK characters, champions and dreadknights is almost the same as the SW jaws power, xept that it's not a psychic power, so they don't get any save against it. And when GK get downed, even 1 model from a unit, that hurts points wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Immune to plasma is a bit of an exaggeration; you have to buy a specific, not that commonly used, HQ and then buy a piece of wargear that's of questionable utility in an all-comers list. Alright, fair enough but it still means that plasma weapons are useless against them if the army is set up the right way. The problem is that the text in the codex didn't specifically state whether this only applied to the things which suffered the plasma rule or are specifically noted to be plasma pistols/rifles/cannons. To my knowledge plasma isn't a rules specific quality of a weapon like melta weapons. This means that it's actually possible to argue the effect covers things like Tyranid bio-plasma and covers a good chunk of the Tau arsenal (pulse weapons, burst cannons, kroot rifles for example). Also consider that the wargear turns any plasma weapons fired at it as if they were BS1. Meaning that things like Leman Russ Executioners are useless if the Grey Knight player you're facing has prepared for them and it's reasonable to expect anything carrying it to survive a shot from a Stormblade. Along with anything else within twelve inches of an inquisitor carrying a plasma syphon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I'm fairly certain the Ulumeathi Plasma Siphon only affects plasma weapons that are within 12" of the bearer, not any plasma weapons fired at it ever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykra Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I'm fairly certain the Ulumeathi Plasma Siphon only affects plasma weapons that are within 12" of the bearer, not any plasma weapons fired at it ever. 100% correct. To me it seems to be a 'Here's a toy to protect that 500 point Paladin squad against a rapid firing plasma line', not something that's going to cripple an entire army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 They're probably more a bane to the Tau than anyone else thanks to being immune to plasma based weapons now. Really, if anything, Tau are probably the least affected about GK. Force weapons mean nothing to Tau. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 lol Tau have no models with 2 wounds to be affected by force weapons? No 3+/4+ armor saves to ignore on the mecha-suited guys? And what is a Fire Warrior/Kroot/Vespid toughness and armor save, anyway? Sure their vehicles will be troublesome if they get the defensive upgrade. But like all non-MEQ infantry, Storm Bolters and Psycannons will scythe Tau down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 lol Tau have no models with 2 wounds to be affected by force weapons? No 3+/4+ armor saves to ignore on the mecha-suited guys? And what is a Fire Warrior/Kroot/Vespid toughness and armor save, anyway? A regular Tactical Squad will defeat nearly any Tau unit in close combat. What exactly do the Force weapons add there? If anything, they make it BETTER for Tau, since last thing Tau want is that they DON'T lose combat, because then they can't rapid fire the crap out of the attacking unit on their own turn. Kroot have no armour save. Almost nobody plays Vespids so it don't matter what save they have. Good luck against Broadsides with your Storm bolters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Easy. Anything not Broadsides, shoot. Anything that is a Broadside, assault. How are the Tau not affected by GK advantages? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 A regular Tactical Squad will defeat nearly any Tau unit in close combat. What exactly do the Force weapons add there? If anything, they make it BETTER for Tau, since last thing Tau want is that they DON'T lose combat, because then they can't rapid fire the crap out of the attacking unit on their own turn. Yes, that; beating WS 2 I 2 Tau in close combat hardly needs force weapons; even their slightly more durable units like battlesuits still have horrible WS and Initiative, and don't do well against even a tactical squad. Any Marine army that gets into close combat with the Tau will win; GK toys are handy, but overkill in most cases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Oh like it really is a challenge to beat up a codex from early 4th ed with a brand spanking new 5th ed codex.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Oh like it really is a challenge to beat up a codex from early 4th ed with a brand spanking new 5th ed codex.... There was a 40 player tournament in Washington on the weekend of May 5th and a Tau player took top spot. A member of B&C recently won a tournament with Witch Hunters, which is a 3rd edition codex. It really can be a challenge to face these codices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2756884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvarius Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 with force weapons, crisis/broadside mechs go down like Slaanesh cultists on a Vestal virgin. Having power/force weapons against tau gives you one thing... NO ARMOR SAVES. Yes. it results in an overkill, but sometimes that's good because you know, that whatever you hit, you destroy outright. Come on. You want to tell me, that nobody here EVER got into cc with fire warriors / crisis suits and didn't break/destroy the unit? I had a few such situations myself. Assault squad jumps into combat.27 standard and 4 power weapon attacks. roll to hit = 17s + 2pw. roll to wound = 12s + 1pw. tau make saves = 5 fire warriors dead. They hit back. 7 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, i failed 2 saves. tau loose by 3, make the Ld test, and it took me 2 more cc turns to wipe them out. by the time i did, there were 6 crisis gundams arround me with plenty of plasma shots. the assault squad managed to take down 1 twelve man fw squad down, before being shot, blown, incinerated, melted, ripped, shredden and pissed on. Not something you would want, right? Now if i had every weapon a power/force weapon then the warriors would be sushi in one strike, and i could go on to make some more damage with my squad. p.s. Is it just me, or have we gone off the main topic? O_o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2757028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 with force weapons, crisis/broadside mechs go down like Slaanesh cultists on a Vestal virgin. Having power/force weapons against tau gives you one thing... NO ARMOR SAVES. Yes. it results in an overkill, but sometimes that's good because you know, that whatever you hit, you destroy outright. Come on. You want to tell me, that nobody here EVER got into cc with fire warriors / crisis suits and didn't break/destroy the unit? I had a few such situations myself. It happens all the time for my Tau, and it is seldom a good thing, as I described... Anyway, the point was not that Tau beat the GK, but rather that from Tau POV, GK are no worse opponent than any other marines. Heck, probably easier than Space Wolves with their Long Fangs and Thunderwolves. Even the plasma siphon hardly nerfs the army, as there is always Melta instead. Goodbye Paladins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2757104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 That being said, a suicide unit with the Crucible can be a great way to assassinate GK characters and Dread Knights (as the average roll on 3D6 is 10.5, meaning the average roll will fail a Leadership 10 test). DV8 That's 3d6 range not a Ld test on 3d6. All in all, to the GK characters, champions and dreadknights is almost the same as the SW jaws power, xept that it's not a psychic power, so they don't get any save against it. And when GK get downed, even 1 model from a unit, that hurts points wise. Touche. Still, you can hope for that 11 or 12 on two dice! :) I think the point being made, Alvarius, is that Grey Knights have very little extra advantage over Tau than any other Space Marine list. Yes, they will kill Crisis Suit teams more easily, but because they pay so many points for their options and gubbins, Grey Knights are actually an easier opponent for Tau to face because they bring "less" to the table (less long-ranged firepower, less numbers, etc.). At the end of the day, Grey Knights die just as easily as regular Space Marines, and there are less of them. And Tau can be very good at killing Space Marines. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2757285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvarius Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 i know. the thing is, that i started the topic having dark eldar in mind, and we end up talkink about tau ;p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2757334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I doubt plasmasyphon will be of much use seeing its only 12". Plasmacannons and such will be laughing at you, unless a cunning plan got you in charging range that is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2757359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 added to the fact that they'd be hitting 1/3rd of the time anyway with the scatter dice. Making bs 1 just as good as bs 10. But now someone'll only want to say i'm wrong... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2757469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 As a dark eldar player who tweaked my list very deliberately to fit the crucible in against my mates GK. I can confirm that most of the time, it will do absolutely sod all. This is with 75% of the models in his army rolling a LD test. Not a single one dropped. On paper it's a nasty item only in the sense that GK's are the only army that will have such a proliferation of psykers to make it useful. It's a quirky item to take but i wouldn't bank on it winning games, especially against such a high LD value across the board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/#findComment-2757790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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