Eorek Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 My exp with my dark eldar against GK is that I pick them apart... usually get first round(using baron) and if I don't the game will only be slightly harder - A upgraded dark eldar veichle with night fields removes 6 inches from the enemies range... psycannons and storm bolters that only reach 18 are easy to avoid the first couple of turns when your anti tank range is 36(dark lances)...so you can basically pick apart the grey knights veichles without them doing much(sure, psy riflemen are evil... but not indestrucable to the 25 lances I use at 2000 points) - A experienced dark eldar player will always get the first strike, Destroy the riflemen, make the grey knights foot sloggers, and only move in when it's really needed and finish a squad with massed fire power... - Sure... A dark eldar army wouldn't win against GK in a "fair" fight where you just shoot eachother to bits... lucky for the dark eldar that they don't play fair... (I'm using a dark eldar list with lots of veichles filled with warriors as example... not the other versions which contains wracks, helions or wych cults) Well, this is my experience fighting with and against dark eldar and greyknights Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2760226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Have GKs not been shooting at you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2760694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Have GKs not been shooting at you? He just said he stays out of range of most of the GKs weapons (which is basically 18 inches for most of their units) and then snipes out vehicles and ranged anti-tank such as dreads... If you can do that early on (and I do say if) and you are playing on the suggested 4 by 6 (rather than a 4 by 4 for 1,500pt game) then you have an elite, short range and pretty slow army on your hands... and that is what the dark eldar like to fight against... small armies where they can focus their fire and slow armies where they can pick the fights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2760722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Yah dark eldar can run circles around Grey Knights. G :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2760749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 In my (admittedly limited) experience, games against the Dark Eldar really hinge on which army gets de-meched first. Take away the Dark Eldar's mobility and you win. Fail to take it away, and they'll stay out of your range and shoot you to bits and do lightning assaults with Incubi to mop up the survivors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2760791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Have GKs not been shooting at you? He just said he stays out of range of most of the GKs weapons (which is basically 18 inches for most of their units) and then snipes out vehicles and ranged anti-tank such as dreads... If you can do that early on (and I do say if) and you are playing on the suggested 4 by 6 (rather than a 4 by 4 for 1,500pt game) then you have an elite, short range and pretty slow army on your hands... and that is what the dark eldar like to fight against... small armies where they can focus their fire and slow armies where they can pick the fights. 18 inches? You do realise that every single grey knight not armed with an incinerator has a 30" effective range, right? DE are actually one opponent where I would condone Heavy Bolter Psybacks. Go ahead and snipe ALL of my tanks and dreads. I dare you. Then you've got Psycannon Purifiers coming out of the transports, plus 12" moving Interceptors wiping out your Warriors and Wyches. Grey Knight armies are not slow. They are just small. Incubi can be a pain, but there are ways and means of getting the first hits in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2760798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Heavy Bolter psybacks are underrated indeed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2760916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 - A experienced dark eldar player will always get the first strike, Destroy the riflemen, make the grey knights foot sloggers, and only move in when it's really needed and finish a squad with massed fire power... Be careful with absolute statements like these. If you assume that every GK player uses the list that you pick apart, sooner or later you're going to run into a GK army that looks nothing like it and you won't know what to do against it. For example, at 2,000 points I can have 30 Interceptors chasing down (easily) and destroying your paper-thin vehicles. I could even throw in a few Dreadknights with the same kind of speed. What do you do now that you can't fly around the battlefield and have to fight on my terms? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2760990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 My exp with my dark eldar against GK is that I pick them apart... usually get first round(using baron) and if I don't the game will only be slightly harder - A upgraded dark eldar veichle with night fields removes 6 inches from the enemies range... psycannons and storm bolters that only reach 18 are easy to avoid the first couple of turns when your anti tank range is 36(dark lances)...so you can basically pick apart the grey knights veichles without them doing much(sure, psy riflemen are evil... but not indestrucable to the 25 lances I use at 2000 points) - A experienced dark eldar player will always get the first strike, Destroy the riflemen, make the grey knights foot sloggers, and only move in when it's really needed and finish a squad with massed fire power... - Sure... A dark eldar army wouldn't win against GK in a "fair" fight where you just shoot eachother to bits... lucky for the dark eldar that they don't play fair... (I'm using a dark eldar list with lots of veichles filled with warriors as example... not the other versions which contains wracks, helions or wych cults) Well, this is my experience fighting with and against dark eldar and greyknights You can definately de mech some GKs pretty easily however you wont find you are always able to make the first strike and/or just destroy all their dreads with ease. For instance my 2000pt all comers list would be very hard for you to kill, my palladins rock around with 3+ to 2+ cover saves so dark weapons arent a problem and even if you do shoot them you won't be able then shoot my dreads. If you were going to try and wreck one of my ven dreads it would take you on average 108 dark lance to kill 1. I have 2. So if you think you will kill my 2 psyfleman dreads then you are kidding yourself. I have found i can out shoot dark eldar paper planes with little trouble even with just 2 ven dreads and some interceptors. However this is all just on paper and of course situations change, I just don't think you have faced a really compitent GK list yet as I think they can really bring you DE some hurt. Regards, Crynn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Dark eldar are inherently faster than GK. I don't think we are going to see lots of lists with three squads of Interceptors and 2-3 NDK. Certainly a game between two veteran players of equal skill is not going to be an easy match for dark eldar. Stormbolters with psybolt ammo alone is just bad news for dark eldar. The real nemesis to raider rush armies are the psyflemen... They can range across the table and will shred the light skimmers - to shoot them means you have to effectively move within range of the psycannons. Speed is the greatest advantage for dark eldar though, even fleet helps a lot. If you aren't mentally prepared to fight dark eldar it's going to be a tough go - Grey Knights can have a huge advantage in kill point missions - almost to the point where the dark eldar might have to table the Grey Knights for the win. In objective based games I think dark eldar generally have a significant advantage... They can simply quickly cover a lot more of the table a whole lot faster. If the venom with dual splinter cannons becomes more popular (16 poisoned shots with an effective range of 48" and BS4) that is going to really hurt foot slogging GK armies with lots of power armored units... For example they can clear out a full squad of Long Fangs with one round of shooting. G :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Well, As I said "Well, this is my experience fighting with and against dark eldar and greyknights" I've only played 7 or so people with different grey knight armies, They are quite different from one and other... crowe with purifiers... paladins with a librarian... Scouting interceptor squads arriving turn 1 in your face and so on. Many of them have years of experience backing up their gaming. Sure, I've noticed that there are good grey knight lists out there (hell I even play one myself). And Dark eldar is by no means unbeatable... it all comes down to the player and his opponent. But I stand by my point: supperior range, supperior speed, supperior fire power(yes... I just did say that) of a boat spamming dark eldar army will most likely make short work of a grey knight army(also depends on the players! don't flame me on this one... /b/ made me fire proof!). I'm not saying that there arn't elements of the greyknights that can't handle dark eldar... but... Some of those things are way to expensive + might be tailored to face dark eldar... (I tend to assume people are talking about tourney all around lists and not custom dark eldar tailored lists... Sorry if I'm misstaken) And remember that the dice god also affects the results of games, I mean. I lost against the previous grey knight codex when my dark eldar lances failed at doing anything but destroying a storm bolter on 44 shots(and maybe a shaken/stunned once or twice) Also keep in mind: This is the players I face, the army I built, the gaming atmosphere I've developed my 40k gaming in... It might(most likely) differs alot from yours. And to Something Wycked who suggesting teleporting dreadknights... you realise how weak those are against lances/poison weapons + how expensive they are right? if a dark eldar player had to stand and shoot it out with a interceptor + telelporting dreadknight heavy list I'd have to say that the amount of dark eldar you get per interceptor unit/dreadknight would kinda tip the odds in the dark eldars favour... if I'd have to fight DE I'd stay away from them dreadknights... I'd go for 6-3(normal dreads>venerable) dreads with auto cannons on everything and loads of razorbacks with assault cannons + psybolt ammo. Maybe even a psycannon or 2 on the guys in the razorbacks - But as I said... If you tailor a list only for beating dark eldar... sure it's your wallet getting thinner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Well, As I said "Well, this is my experience fighting with and against dark eldar and greyknights" I've only played 7 or so people with different grey knight armies, They are quite different from one and other... crowe with purifiers... paladins with a librarian... Scouting interceptor squads arriving turn 1 in your face and so on. Many of them have years of experience backing up their gaming. Sure, I've noticed that there are good grey knight lists out there (hell I even play one myself). And Dark eldar is by no means unbeatable... it all comes down to the player and his opponent. But I stand by my point: supperior range, supperior speed, supperior fire power(yes... I just did say that) of a boat spamming dark eldar army will most likely make short work of a grey knight army(also depends on the players! don't flame me on this one... /b/ made me fire proof!). I'm not saying that there arn't elements of the greyknights that can't handle dark eldar... but... Some of those things are way to expensive + might be tailored to face dark eldar... (I tend to assume people are talking about tourney all around lists and not custom dark eldar tailored lists... Sorry if I'm misstaken) And remember that the dice god also affects the results of games, I mean. I lost against the previous grey knight codex when my dark eldar lances failed at doing anything but destroying a storm bolter on 44 shots(and maybe a shaken/stunned once or twice) Also keep in mind: This is the players I face, the army I built, the gaming atmosphere I've developed my 40k gaming in... It might(most likely) differs alot from yours. And to Something Wycked who suggesting teleporting dreadknights... you realise how weak those are against lances/poison weapons + how expensive they are right? if a dark eldar player had to stand and shoot it out with a interceptor + telelporting dreadknight heavy list I'd have to say that the amount of dark eldar you get per interceptor unit/dreadknight would kinda tip the odds in the dark eldars favour... if I'd have to fight DE I'd stay away from them dreadknights... I'd go for 6-3(normal dreads>venerable) dreads with auto cannons on everything and loads of razorbacks with assault cannons + psybolt ammo. Maybe even a psycannon or 2 on the guys in the razorbacks - But as I said... If you tailor a list only for beating dark eldar... sure it's your wallet getting thinner. Some very fair points their mate. I personally DKs are rather horrible in most games. I think a good grey knight list should have some interceptors if they have a grandmaster, just for capping reasons though dark enlder hurt interceptors as much as interceptors hurt them point for point. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Some very fair points their mate. Well thank you, Yea... I've always thought interceptors are over priced... good at what they do... but too expensive... the grey knights I've built excell at taking out horde/melée armies but can still hold their own against shooty stuff (all though imperial guard hurts...) I really love using purifiers for a all around list (lots of weapons, 1 more base attack, cheap halbeards...what's not to love in making an all around list based of these guys?(expensive:.<)) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Grey Knights have two drawbacks: model count and weapon range. The weapon range drawback is solved by mobility, which is provided handily by PT's on Interceptors and Dreadknights. The model count problem is solved by not buying retardedly expensive units or lots of vehicles. Interceptors x10, 2x Psycannons, Hammer, Psybolts: 310, x3 units Dreadknight, PT: 205, x2 units Strike Squad x10, Hammer, Psybolts, 2x Psycannons: 250, x2 units Totals to 1840 points, leaving 160 for an HQ, easily done with a Captain or Champion or Inquisitor. 50 MEQ infantry and 2 MC's in a 2k point game isn't bad, eh? Especially when 30+2 are Jump Infantry? Also isn't tailored to DE, its just a very mobile GK force. Interceptors chase down the vehicles, Dreadknights following and hiding behind cover before they pounce on a squad to assault- probably a squad that has been grounded by Interceptors destroying their ride. Strikes can camp the home objective or Deep Strike if there's a need. So... how many DE are you brining to this 2k fight? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Alot more than mere 50 infatry and 2 MC. edit: Sleep time for me... I'll check in tomorrow... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I'd be disappointed if I wasn't outnumbered. :D 58+ MEQ wounds is a lot to handle, even for DE. And I forgot to address another point- Interceptors being "expensive". Compare full units of Interceptors and Strike Squads. If you mech up a Strike squad, its only 20 points cheaper than the Interceptors. Very, very comparable unit costs, and you can't take the Interceptors' mobility away from them; all you can do is kill them off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 But I stand by my point: supperior range, supperior speed, supperior fire power(yes... I just did say that) of a boat spamming dark eldar army will most likely make short work of a grey knight army(also depends on the players! don't flame me on this one... /b/ made me fire proof!). Deldar and thier paper boats won't ever out shoot a GK army. The Deldar best bet is to assault us, as we're not a CC army. And WWPs dropped midfield are totally devastating. Couple this with the ability to walk on from your own board edge instea dof the WWP if necessary, and the cheaper Deldar can outnumber us, with CC units that will beat us in CC. So... how many DE are you brining to this 2k fight? IIRC last match I faced 30 Wyches 20 Incubi (1 squad with Veckt) 10 (?) Razorwings (with a Clawed Fiend and 5 Beastmasters) 10 Wracks 2 Hemos Talos And some assorted boats. Probably missing something. Maybe there were a handful of helions for a laugh. Can't remember. Games starts with only the Hemos and Wracks (2 5 man Squads) in Raiders. Veckt got first turn. Raiders move max, Hemo gets out (Wracks stay inside) Both Hemo's drop WWP. Next turn, they mostly all get wiped out, but thier job is done. The WWP are down, and the Deldar now have 3 options to walk in from from reserves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I'd be disappointed if I wasn't outnumbered. :P 58+ MEQ wounds is a lot to handle, even for DE. And I forgot to address another point- Interceptors being "expensive". Compare full units of Interceptors and Strike Squads. If you mech up a Strike squad, its only 20 points cheaper than the Interceptors. Very, very comparable unit costs, and you can't take the Interceptors' mobility away from them; all you can do is kill them off. Please let's not start a discussion where we claim list A beats list B... The only wayto test that would be making 9001 players fight eachother 9001 times each... and the only conclusion would be that the player behind the army(and the dice god in some games) has just as big of a part in it as the army list. Also the fact that no 2 lists tend to be indentical to eachother a player can always make small changes to his list depending on if he's facing the same enemies over and over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 lol Eorek... I accept your admission of defeat :P @ Gentlemanloser: 73 models + boats versus 53 models... I'm feeling better already :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 It was at least 4! 3 of the rhino types, 1 of the heavy 3 Disintergrator Cannon (lance?) variety. Edit: Veckt is a monster in CC though. Be careful of him if you face him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2761998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 lol I always assume everything is better than me at assault, so I shoot first and ask questions later ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2762016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 lol Eorek... I accept your admission of defeat :D Sorry.... what? So basically you want me to write a list that would counter a grey knight army like yours? You do realise we're talking all around list right and that we cannot anticipate what kind of list we're facing making this argument quite unnessesary indeed. But here goes: 5 warriors + blaster in a raider with a disitegrator cannon x6 Ravager with 3 disintegrator cannons x3 4 trueborn with 4 blasters in a raider with a disintegrator cannon x3 1 archon with agoniser, combat drugs, shadow field and a blast pistol this is like... 1900 points?, would handle foot slogging power armour ...quite well I must say Though who the hell builds a list like this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2764506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Deldar and thier paper boats won't ever out shoot a GK army. My Kabal based DE Eldar has beaten a GK list in a fire fight... MYTH BUSTED! Oh and to the person who said most GKs have a 30 inch move (6 inch movement and all)... well if a DE is controlling your movement and he is halfway savvy... he is already halfway to winning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2764531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I have not seen any GK army beat the Local DE player at my Local club and I have seen if fight a couple of GK builds and His has Not changed much Mostly the Venoms with Blasters and Blasters in them and Ravegers with Dark lances. its all about limiting your range ability + their speed which Is greater than your SpeedThe Idea is to Demech you and well Blaster you away and the Only one that reall differed was the Henchmen List which ended up Lancing the dreads till they had no weapons and Blasted squads till they were gone. People need to remember the Psy Dread is only a Threat while it has guns the DE player only cares bout removing them not about destroying it straight up and will then focus more after turn 4ish on it if it is causing trouble. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2764565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I said 30" effective range, not 30" move. Go ahead and try to control my movement. I don't actually care where you go when my basic troops put out twice the firepower of yours and have more range to boot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/3/#findComment-2764566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.