Hellios Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I said 30" effective range, not 30" move. Go ahead and try to control my movement. I don't actually care where you go when my basic troops put out twice the firepower of yours and have more range to boot. You have squad holding objective in bush (so that my Ap3/2 won't eat you)... I have a squad of meh in some sort of transport... on the flank... I move so I'm just 24 away from you... I shoot you and I can just stay shooting if you don't do anything... Now as your army has a limited range that unit (aside from fire support like dreads) might be the only unit in range... except wait I have a night shield... you move in DT... you might not even move far enough to get into range... so I shoot you more... move far enough and you may well be out of cover... cool now I'll eat your expensive GK squad... did you kill my warriors? shame cause I have more than twice as many as you have GKs. Ooo did you advance across the board and 'corner' my army... oh what a shame half of my army has just appeared on the otherside... move to shoot oneside and be out of range of the other... but have them still in range of you... Your basic troops may put out twice as much firepower but... I can have twice as many troops... I can take weapons that negate how you you are (part of the reason you are so few) and I will make sure you can't get the most out of it or ideally anything out of a unit meaning that even if your squad has 10 times the firepower it is still worse if it can't shoot at me at all. If you don't care about movement against DE players you either don't have suitable boards for the game or you are playing against a bad DE player... in which case yes... DE are easy to beat... but that has always been the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2764617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Sure, a basic grey knight unit can dash out more firepower than a basic dark eldar unit. no argument there (my grey knights shoot a dark eldar army to bits if I get close enough)... just the thing is that when it comes to demeching(long range fire power) I'm afraid that we grey knights are usually outgunned, Only reason you'd ever go close to the grey knights is when mopping up stuff or if the dice god is against you and all his veichles are alive round 2 after you've shot 40-ish(20 lances round 1 + 20 more lances round 2 for people who might read this as a dark eldar having 40 lances(OMG BROKEN!)) lances at them, If it's a foot slogging/jumping grey knight army... I'd say the odds are still in the dark eldar players favor. Dark eldar might be made out of glass... But as long as you don't throw em straight into stormbolter/psycannon range you're in controll of the game. Sure, As I've said before... there are greyknight lists that can beat certain dark eldar lists(please find me an example between 2 armies where this ain't true though) but there are more dark eldar list that beat grey knights than the other way around(Without the dark eldar player mistaking his 10-10-10 open topped raider for a monolith) Dark eldar ain't good enough that you can win by just pointing it in a direction and then win, but if used right, they are lethal, which is just the thing that I love about them. But I also love the eliteness of a Greyknight army, So I'm trying to be neutral. To my surprise many in this topic react "Go back to commoragh you dark eldar scum! there is now way you can even touch us in our shining armour and leet units" rather than discuss it from the strenghts and weakness of both armies (My interzeptorz will be killing stuff ez!) ^and I doubt this was the intention of the author of this topic(sure there are alot of people that contributed to this topic aswell... I salute you) Though internet... You never fail to surprise me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2764623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 No, Eorek, I wasn't asking for a list. But I threw a list out there as an example of a list that you have not taken into account. By your own words: - A experienced dark eldar player will always get the first strike, Destroy the riflemen, make the grey knights foot sloggers, and only move in when it's really needed and finish a squad with massed fire power... What does "an experienced dark eldar player" do when there are no Riflemen to destroy, no vehicles to destroy to "make the grey knights foot sloggers"? When you face a list like the one I posted, your entire battle plan has to change, or you stand a very real chance of losing. A point only reinforced by the fact that you had to make a completely different list to counter the one I wrote up. And you proved my point for me- Though who the hell builds a list like this? Nobody, that's who. Because nobody expects* to face a list like I posted- giving me the advantage, and the DE the disadvantage. You've paid a bunch of points for a bunch of lances that won't be shooting down vehicles... because there aren't any. And a bunch of points for vehicles... that don't give you a mobility advantage over my mobility. Now, my point with all this: I'm not saying the GK are hands down better. Obviously they're not or DE wouldn't be winning games against them. What I am pointing out is that - A experienced dark eldar player will always get the first strike, Destroy the riflemen, make the grey knights foot sloggers, and only move in when it's really needed and finish a squad with massed fire power... is not always the case. If you or any other "experienced dark eldar player" assumes that every GK army he faces has Psyflemen and Rhinos, and every Blood Angels army he faces focuses on assault, etc etc, you are going to lose to the unconventional opponent who brings something to the table that you aren't equipped to handle. *(The Spanish Inquisition!) EDIT: Imagine my surprise when I saw this: To my surprise many in this topic react "Go back to commoragh you dark eldar scum! there is now way you can even touch us in our shining armour and leet units" rather than discuss it from the strenghts and weakness of both armies (My interzeptorz will be killing stuff ez!) When you've said exactly the opposite from the DE perspective: "There is no way an experienced dark eldar player will ever lose to a grey knight player." :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2764636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Just a quick contribution to the conversation: Finding a shooting position to open fire against enemies is not a viable option for DE. They have to assault ASAP. Their fragile transport will reach GK's weapon's range, even with the 6" reduction, if the want to charge. Raiders offer easy kill points and upgraded reaches 70-80 pts, not very cheap for a AV 10 transport with the tendency to blow up. I played DE several times and I can assure DE don't have the ability to kill every SM they touch. Wyches usually wound the on 5+ and the Hekatrix is the only one that can negate armour saves. Incubi are a real threat to SM but they have I5, thus Halberd GK will strike first. Another DE dirty trick is webway portal. It removes the weakness of a raider transported force but it will concentrate your units on on single spot. My BA best victory was againsr a webway DE. MY stormravens decimated the DE as the came out from the portal. Plasma cannons are devastating to T3 models. Beside if a player place his own units near the portal itself DE will be unable to enter the field, since the cannot pass through enemy units if they don't have fly capabilities. DE are a very fun and potentially dangerous army but they don't seem to auto-win against GK. If I'd play my DE against GK I would expect very high casualties. I'm sure my archon will see many of his warriors torn into pieces. Dark Lances still need a 4+ roll to penetrate AV( 4 will only glance). 2 out of six chances to pen Dreads' armour and and additional 2 out 6 chances to roll a "destroy" damage. If you add cover you will discover the dread will have high chances to retaliate against raider/ravagers. I'll test my own GK against DE very soon and I'll let you know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2764668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 This. Our Deldar player started with a mass Raider spamm list, and got shot out of the air by everyone. Now he runs dual WWP and assaults. And has been nearly unbeaten through it. A spot on assessemt of the Wyches and Incubi, but Beastmasters sohuld be added to the list. Moving as Cavalry from a mid table WWP means it's nearly impossible *not* to get them into CC the turn they arrive. And massed Razorwings hurt anything. Even if they need a 5+ to wound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2764706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I don't think anyone said DE were an auto-win army... otherwise that's all that you would see at big tournies... Just that in capable hands they are more than able of defeating a GK army... Although GKs can beat DE as well ;) Also DE can work as shooting armies :D but they work in a different way compared to marines... or guard... or even craftworld eldar... DE assault are not even that amazing :'( they are great at mopping up or bundling... but have issues on the whole... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2764832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 What does "an experienced dark eldar player" do when there are no Riflemen to destroy, no vehicles to destroy to "make the grey knights foot sloggers"? When you face a list like the one I posted, your entire battle plan has to change, or you stand a very real chance of losing. Go 2nd turn put everything in reserve and laugh like Dark Eldar do by the stupidity of footsloggers. Last turn objective grabbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2764977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I don't think anyone said DE were an auto-win army... otherwise that's all that you would see at big tournies... Just that in capable hands they are more than able of defeating a GK army... Although GKs can beat DE as well ;) Like most armies ;) . Seriously: armies need to be balanced or they will be ignored by most customers... I hope GW considers it when they make a new codex.... Also DE can work as shooting armies :D but they work in a different way compared to marines... or guard... or even craftworld eldar... DE assault are not even that amazing :'( they are great at mopping up or bundling... but have issues on the whole... DE have poisoned ranged weapons but personally I don't find their shooting power "outstanding". Raider/Ravager mounted weapons can be interesting but I never found them the winning card to play in a match. Don't misunderstand me, I do believe they possess quite amazing weapons but the answer is "are the able to win easily a firefight?" There are circumstances when their assault seem unstoppable others when they lose combat badly. And massed Razorwings hurt anything. Even if they need a 5+ to wound.: DE beasts are one of the best units in their codex but maybe they cannot "win a war" alone... Calculations needed and sadly I have the do them right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2765030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Vekht with an Incubi Bodyguard is beastly as well. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2765037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Vekht with an Incubi Bodyguard is beastly as well. :D I played it. ;) Nearly unstoppable until you run into a dread...and your unit starts to die, piece after piece. Vect has granades but he needs a 6 to hit a dread. Personally my GK appear more versatile than my DE. I GK are still unbeated after 8 matches while my DE's performace was not so impressive. Maybe it depends on my playing style. The real problem with DE is to prevent high casualities from ranged fire. Playing against SM, I was eager to reach CC but againsr GK I would be aware of the damage the can deal to my "squishy" soldiers, epecially when my Incubi cannot use their saves and are forced to attack after I6 force weapon wielders Space Marine. Just my opinion though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2765049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Dreads? That's what 10 Wyches with Haywire 'nades are for. Last game, they came on turn two thorugh one of the WWPs, fleeted thorugh the crater to get to my dread and BAM! a couple of sixes and a destroyed Dread. /sadface Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2765161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Dreads? That's what 10 Wyches with Haywire 'nades are for. Last game, they came on turn two thorugh one of the WWPs, fleeted thorugh the crater to get to my dread and BAM! a couple of sixes and a destroyed Dread. /sadface The problem is that sometimes is the dread to charge Incubi. Haywire nades are amazing. I always equip wyches with them. The first time I used them it was against a mech BA list and the spread destruction across the table. The real issue against dread is the limited number of attacks. You need a huge luck to destroy a dread in a single turn. Beside if your opponent play wisely wyches will become a prioroty target for "Area of Effect" (blast and template alike) weapons. I really like DE but I'm not sure they can have an easy day against GK. It largely depends on players' abilities and dice rolls, though :D I'm curious to see how the new Talos will perform..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2765835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 The Talos is, ok. Beastly when you get a 6 for it's attacks. But my GKs don't fear it as even tohugh I need a 6 to wound it, I get I6 attacks that force weapon it. That or a NDK goes toe to toe with one. I've even Doomfisted one with a Dread. Force Weapons versus the Talos FTW. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2766228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 The Talos is, ok. Beastly when you get a 6 for it's attacks. But my GKs don't fear it as even tohugh I need a 6 to wound it, I get I6 attacks that force weapon it. That or a NDK goes toe to toe with one. I've even Doomfisted one with a Dread. Force Weapons versus the Talos FTW. ;) I agree. After all GK only need a 6 to inflict a wound and activate Force Weapons. The Talos is now out of business. I think I'll buy one or two new Talos but as GK player I don't fear to meet it on the table. Yesterday I played a 2000 pts games against DE. My GK lost only two units, a psybolt dread destroyed by a dark lance and a purifier squads charged by Lelith and two wyches units. The purifiers' sacriface was not vane because the wyches were helpless against my TL plasma cannon stormraven and psybolt dreads. Lelith fell under a psybolt auto cannpn shot. Stormravens, especially TL plasma cannon ones, are the real bane of DE infantry. Once DE vehicels are stunned/shaked their dark lances don't pose a threat. There were only two close combats: the first one wiped out my purifiers; during the secong my other purifier units, accompanied by ordo xeno inquisitor with the usual collection of nades, killed the remaining 5 incubi of an already weakened unit. Crowe remained out of fight but the match was decided by shooting. My GK ranged weapons annihilated the vicious DE :D Thanks to Stomravens, dreads and psycannons... It seems that at local store dark lances are not very lucky, and I include my own DE. However they still need a 4+ to glance a AV12 and a 5+ to penetrate it. Not an extremely easy task in my opinion. Beside GK vehicles can remove any shaked/stunned effect while DE vehicles' armours are easy to penetrate and you get a +1 bonus to damage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2766860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cptphoenixck Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Grey Knights are a good solid and balanced codex, if played well they're very very good. One of their greatest strengths against dark eldar is that as most of their units are good at everything all they need to do to make life a living hell is destroy the synergy in the DE list.... For example by killing all their transports they loose the mobility they so desperately (generally) need inorder to win and leave their lovely squishy units open to lots and lots of bolter fire. Having said that most GK players, myself included rely on Psycannons for at, and therefore when you face a list of three voidravens with both kinds of shield and four nasty missiles winning with a balanced list becomes problematic. Even by teleporting or shunting units close to them is difficult if your opponent reserves them and then moves them on and targets the only units you can threaten them with. Even if by a miracle you manage to make it into 18" they still have a 4+ coversave, and dont even get me started on blast missiles that you have to take a characteristic test based on wounds or die automatically. Having said that most balanced armies will struggle against an opposing army chosen to exploit its specific weaknesses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229646-dark-eldar-bane-of-the-gk/page/4/#findComment-2769435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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