Daedalus Templarius Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Really? That just seems ridiculous. Take a paladin apoth, or 2 more paladins + psycannon. The apoth doesn't seem worth it at all if he is 130pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Yes really. Feel No Pain on himself, his two wound buddies and whoever is running around with them. It helps to partially remedy one of the Grey Knights' greatest weaknesses, weight of fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2756542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 while it can be good vs. weight of fire in reality paladins seems to do pretty well as 2w and 2+, it's those low ap/power weapon attacks which will be putting down hurt, and those we be negating FNP 130pts would be better spend funding a librarian with shrouding. ~Gil ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2756554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Templarius Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 With wound allocation, I've found the weight of fire to not be nearly as nasty as getting shot with high S, low ap stuff. Might be time to change out the arm on that paladin to something else... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2756578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 130pts would be better spend funding a librarian with shrouding. For even more fun results during a mess-about game, add a Bro-champ to them too. 3+ cover save and re-rollable 3++ in assault to protect them. During the weekend, I wanna try playing around with a 10 paladin squad with Draigo, Shrouding Mighty/Quicksilver Lib, quad psycannon and BB - the ultimate GK deathstar pointsink. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2756587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I would love to try out an apothicary, However, At 1500 points, I just cant afford it, and if I could I'd cut out a few more points and go for a libby, as I'm sure it would be so much more useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2756663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Like the concept for Paladins and the Apothecary, but he's just too expensive to justify, even if I maxed out the squad and attached two ICs. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2756877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The apothecary is not worth it as an upgrade. Paladins are already incredible resilient to small arms fire with multiple wounds, wound allocation, and TDA. The attacks which threaten paladins are either double their toughness, AP1/AP2, or PWs all of which negate NFP. Under no circumstance should you be taking an apothecary IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2756957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaelion Hexis Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I am of the opposite persuasion. Due to my terrible habit of bad rolling, FNP is a really good backer-up-er-rer. Low AP weapons aren't always too hard to avoid and I find mass firepower to head in their direction more, and mass close combat attacks, again the 50/50 chance of ignoring those few that get by the TDA is just what I need. I guess it's about the meta, but it works for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 while it can be good vs. weight of fire in reality paladins seems to do pretty well as 2w and 2+, it's those low ap/power weapon attacks which will be putting down hurt, and those we be negating FNP 130pts would be better spend funding a librarian with shrouding. ~Gil :) You will change your mind the first time a 50 man IG blob w/first rank fire takes out half your Paladins in one round of shooting. With Lasguns. Or worse, in melee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Really? That just seems ridiculous. Take a paladin apoth, or 2 more paladins + psycannon. The apoth doesn't seem worth it at all if he is 130pts. This 130pts crap is starting to really piss me off. He is not 130pts. He is 75pts upgrade. Calling him 130pts implies that he loses usefulness as a Paladin which is BS. He is still a Paladin, you simply pay 75pts to replace a single Storm Bolter with FNP for the entire Squad. He still gets a NFW and all his other shenanigans. You simply lose 2 Stormbolter attacks in exchange for FNP for the entire squad for 75pts. You did not lose a Paladin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 If only Paladins were ICs when taken alone... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibious Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 But thats still 130pts of a 55pt paladin who now cant shoot and gains FNP. On the bright side you may be using Hollowcaust a lot, the apothocary could take this role and you loose 0 Storm Bolter shots. Personaly I have not yet used him though and belive Paladins are expencive each as they come already, then he doesnt protect them from instant death. Probably right as well since my opponents go out their way to ensure they fight PW units. -Gib- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Knight Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Gibb: Why don't you just cast Holocaust with him then? I feel an apothecary does have his uses, for example in a draigowing army (I run one with 3 for the sheer amount of lolz :P ) Where if you are outnumbered by, say, guardsmen, it does make a fair difference as saving 2 wounds with his FNP rolls pretty much makes his points back (well 20 short so say 3 :) ) which isn't bad. However in a non Draigowing army (anything with less than 2 squads of Pallies) he's pretty much superflous as the PAGK tend to be a lot better and your opponent knows it. So he will aim meltas, etc at the pallies and drop them and then FNP makes no difference whilst his/her bolters/lasguns/insert generic gun name takes out your PAGK. I say it's a very situational question depending on the local gaming meta, however in tournies/ToS etc, I would strongly recommend the libby over him. On a side note, my draigo wing wiped a 1000pt guard list with 13 meltas and 7 plasma and 4 valkyries with a return of 7 pallies and draigo ;) that's not to say my opponent was weak as he's a ToS player, the same as me, and this match was for the pure lolz to see how long I could survive ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Templarius Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Well, I run my draigowing inside of an LRR, along with 2 strike squads in psybacks. I haven't really felt he has been doing that great at 75pts, but for 130pts I'll gladly replace him with a regular guy. I suppose I'll keep him around and built just in case I go up against an army that is going to torrent the crap out of me, but against high str/low ap weapons, I don't think he makes his points back... tho Draigo certainly does! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 But thats still 130pts of a 55pt paladin who now cant shoot and gains FNP. On the bright side you may be using Hollowcaust a lot, the apothocary could take this role and you loose 0 Storm Bolter shots. Personaly I have not yet used him though and belive Paladins are expencive each as they come already, then he doesnt protect them from instant death. Probably right as well since my opponents go out their way to ensure they fight PW units. -Gib- Its a 55 pts Paladin + 75pts divided by the number of paladins you have in the squad. If you have 10 he is only 62.5 pts for the Apoth. Every Paladin gets FNP and you guys seem to be forgetting that. That is well worth even 15pts a model (For 5 models making the Apoth still only 70 pts) IMHO when you start getting hammered with mass lasgun/bolter equivalent fire. This 130pt garbage is simply an exaggeration based off of certain players disdain for the model (which I totally don't get, because I bet they love FNP on Nob Bikers of SW Cav if they can get it). As far as opponents going out of their way to fight PW units, great. Problem is, there are very few units fully armed with PWs. Most have one to three models with PWs and the rest standard CCW. So it should still be rare, in addition if they go out of their way to have you fight them, go out of your way to avoid them. With Land Raiders and Stormravens you should be able to pick your first fight and most likely second pretty well. If they live through two assaults, they are already above the power curve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I agree with Angelis mortis to an extent, I treat the apoth upgrade similar to the Psybolt upgrade, good on large squads, overpriced on small squads. If you look at the 75 points as split amongst the whole squad then it is 7.5 points per model in a 10 man squad. If you are only running 5 Palidans then the 15 extra points per model is a bit much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Templarius Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 If I had a huge squad of paladins, then it would definitely be more worth it. But even if you riding in an LRC, your max modelcount is going to be 6 paladins, a librarian, and Draigo. I mean, that's what I would take anyway :D For that squad it might be worth it, I think it really depends on your opponent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 On an embarked squad I am not sure about its value, I would go with, if you can find something better to spend 75 points on, then do it, if not then the apothecary cannot hurt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2757717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfire Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I agree with Angelis mortis to an extent, I treat the apoth upgrade similar to the Psybolt upgrade, good on large squads, overpriced on small squads. If you look at the 75 points as split amongst the whole squad then it is 7.5 points per model in a 10 man squad. If you are only running 5 Palidans then the 15 extra points per model is a bit much. Funny, I'd actually look at it the other way around. Apoth is better on smaller squads, because he's more necessary to keep the squad alive. Once you get 10 man squads, you don't need much help any more. So I'd mostly just use an apoth in squads that are intended to get loaded into a transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2758022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I agree with Angelis mortis to an extent, I treat the apoth upgrade similar to the Psybolt upgrade, good on large squads, overpriced on small squads. If you look at the 75 points as split amongst the whole squad then it is 7.5 points per model in a 10 man squad. If you are only running 5 Palidans then the 15 extra points per model is a bit much. Funny, I'd actually look at it the other way around. Apoth is better on smaller squads, because he's more necessary to keep the squad alive. Once you get 10 man squads, you don't need much help any more. So I'd mostly just use an apoth in squads that are intended to get loaded into a transport. I usually try to take the apoth because nothing pisses me off more than losing Terminators to Lasgun/bolter fire. Sure, Plasma I can stand, melta, power weapon, but losing them to lasgun/bolter is just so avoidable with an apothecary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2758044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impactwinter Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I've been trying it in a non-draigowing setting (don't use special chars too much). I'm unsure because i only use him in a 5-man squad that joins a Brother captain in a Stormraven for massive murder on the run; its nice to get those FNP rolls to shrug off wounds, but indeed most of the wounds do come from things that ignore FNP... 75pts is a lot of points to the GK, and frankly I'm starting to think that paladins are a little too killy as it is, the apothecary is almost overkill. I suppose its a question of points value and squad size; He certainly does improve the squads effectiveness, but at <2000pts I'm not sure they need the help Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2758069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaelion Hexis Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 It can make them a decent tank unit, with swords. TDA and FNP against normal attacks, 4++ against power weapon attacks. Or with falchions, help them brush off large amounts of regular attacks whilst they carve their way through. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2758205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 It has been mentioned before but an apothecary is something similar to a chapter banner or Pedro Kantor or something like that. Ok, if you only have a squad of 5, its probably too much. For a squad of 10? Priceless. Same goes for taking a chapter banner for honour guard. For 3 guys, the extra points would give you more than one extra HG, which is an extra wound and more attacks than you gain (on the charge). If you have 10 HG and an attached IC? You'd be crazy not to take it. You have 10 characters, 20 wounds, wound allocation, 2+ and 4/5++, feel no pain on top of that can be the difference between 1-3 guys falling down before they get into combat and 0. You can't just count the number of saves it will probably make... you have to keep in mind you will be taking wounds anyways. The So if you take 5 wounds and allocate them and lose no guys, those extra few wounds saved by FnP could mean those vulnerable wounded models stay alive etc. I would be nice to experiment when exactly it becomes worth it, but I'm guessing that even 7 is already great. about 10 pts per model for FnP... still looks expensive to some maybe, but its 10pts to prevent a 60+ point model from dying. I'd take one for my honour guard :-D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2758386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I just want to know why the narthecium replaces the storm bolter. He has two arms. Same with the brotherhood banner. He can hold his sword in the other hand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229656-paladin-apothacary-130pts/#findComment-2759335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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