Vanguard spam in DOA

[knife&fork]

I've mostly played combined mech and deep strike in my lists so far. Although I've done pretty well I've felt that I lack focus, and I want to try a pure deepstrike / reserves force. Since I don't have any Baals (ha ha) there's not a lot of competition for those FA slots. Bikes work better in mech lists and I really don't feel like buying and painting 8 more speeders.

 

A lot of armies these days seem to depend on a few characters or units to be effective. Some of these are best dealt with using ranged weapons, and we have many options there. Others are best tied up in close combat and probably no unit in the game are as flexible and deadly as BA vanguard, single D6 scatter and HI is a killer combination.

 

Looking over the previous DOA discussions I never really see people taking more than one VV unit (sometimes combatsquadded on deployment). Seems to me that HI is something you want to use as much as possible?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To me one squad is enough. I know some like to run a ten man unit and combat squad them. Assault squads having a higher priority for me to spam since they can take meltaguns. I don't think more than two small units will net much additional gain. That is my current take on VV. They are definitely in my opinion a key unit for DoA.

 

G :D

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

if you're not totally opposed to having a somewhat mixed list, either take biker scouts with a beacon, or drop pods with beacons to make them even more accurate. but yes, having more than 10 vanguard could be made to work in my opinion.

[SamaNagol]

They are too expensive and don't score.

[knife&fork]

In this case there's a fins line between list talk and tactics, maybe I should post an example in the armylist section instead?

[SamaNagol]

Well the thing with 40k is that effectiveness on the tabletop is very well balanced with points, and unless you can really justify spending over 500pts on several units of non scoring troops who have I4 and just a 3+ save, then it's going to be tough.

 

I could possibly see them being more useful in an Astorath build where they could get access to Red Thirst more reliably. But without the ability to take a Sanguinary Priest, they are better suited to hitting something which either A: can't hit back but is a ranged threat or B: taking Storm Shields and holding up something big and scary in close combat until you can bring weight of numbers in and take it out.

[knife&fork]

Well the thing with 40k is that effectiveness on the tabletop is very well balanced with points, and unless you can really justify spending over 500pts on several units of non scoring troops who have I4 and just a 3+ save, then it's going to be tough.

 

I could possibly see them being more useful in an Astorath build where they could get access to Red Thirst more reliably. But without the ability to take a Sanguinary Priest, they are better suited to hitting something which either A: can't hit back but is a ranged threat or B: taking Storm Shields and holding up something big and scary in close combat until you can bring weight of numbers in and take it out.

 

It's very easy to spend way too much on them. If you want to use more than one I think it's vital to keep them small and killy. They are assassins, not hammers. Storm shields cost a lot, way too much IMHO. Using that many points just to tie something up seems like a waste. If it's too much for the VV to handle in cc better then to use a shooty HG or dread.

[SamaNagol]

That is why I wouldn't take more than one unit of 10 and throw in a lot of Storm Shields. Make them get in and hold up enemy units until the Assault Squads with Priests can get in and finish them off.

[Leksington]

An interesting prospect.

 

-Diminishing returns on VV:

VV are so important in a DoA list because they tie up threats(especially the shooting kind) to the rest of your army. They are also important to create points of close combat (so your enemy can't just spend the game retreating and shooting).

 

Your enemy is only going to present you with so many shooting threats and soft targets for you to Heroically Intervene into. Your first VV unit will assault the best target available. The second will have a slightly worse target, the third an even worse target, and so on. In this way, you are getting worse value out of each subsequent VV unit you put on the table.

 

Clearly the first two 5 man squads of VV have great value in a DoA list in that they have a particular role. The question is what is the value of the 3rd and 4th VV squad?

 

-VV value compared to other troops:

VV benefit from being able to assault without taking any fire.

VV lose the ability to shoot before they assault, and lose synergy with SPs (no furious charge or FnP on the opening assault).

 

5 man VV squad is 165 points. It is going to charge with 20 S4 attacks at I4.

5 man HG squad is 165 points. It is going to charge with 5 S4 shooting attacks, plus 20 S5 attacks at I5, and FnP.

5 man AS with SP is 175. It is going to have 6 S4 shooting attacks, plus 20 S5 attacks, has FnP and is scoring.

 

The HG and the AS with a SP appear to be the better assault option. But the question is, how many of them will be whittled down by 1 turn of shooting? If you, as a general, can give your AS or HG enough cover for 1 turn that that you lose only 1 marine(keep FnP in mind here), then HG or AS are a better option than VV. If you find that you are losing atleast 2 marines per squad, only then do VV even become a consideration.

[Gv0zD]

VV AR great, but very expensive at the same time. Add the wargear options to what Leksington said and you'll see their usefullness. However, as SamaNagol noticed, they are not scoring. I run 10 men in my 1500 list, and they cost 500pts exactly. Although I love this unit, I'd not spend more on them. The added value of the 3rd and 4th squads is much lower, as Leksington stated.

VV are great for initial stries, but there are other good assault options, less expensive, with FC ad FNP, more models per squad etc etc

[angel of justice]

a furioso dread with fragcannon and heavy flamer in a drop pod with locator beacon could actually be great help to vanguard vets. It dropping down and laying down 3 templates worth of damage could destory bubble wrap leaving the vets the oppurutunity to assault protected and important targets.

[knife&fork]

-Diminishing returns on VV:

Your enemy is only going to present you with so many shooting threats and soft targets for you to Heroically Intervene into. Your first VV unit will assault the best target available. The second will have a slightly worse target, the third an even worse target, and so on. In this way, you are getting worse value out of each subsequent VV unit you put on the table.

 

Clearly the first two 5 man squads of VV have great value in a DoA list in that they have a particular role. The question is what is the value of the 3rd and 4th VV squad?

 

The thing is that you can't tell for sure when a squad will be able to deploy from reserves, or in which order they will arive. With several squads you'll have more opportunities of engaging appropriate targets. The combatsquadded 10 man only gets one reserve roll, while several squads could be spread out or arrive all together. You can shift shift the odds a bit since you don't have to reroll a failed deployment check. It would also make sense to always roll for the VV last.

 

-VV value compared to other troops:

VV lose the ability to shoot before they assault, and lose synergy with SPs (no furious charge or FnP on the opening assault).

 

In a pure DOA force you might very well be able to have a priest in position where the VV can benefit from his bubble. The odds for this are even better when you have several VV squads.

 

 

As I stated earlier I think they make for good assasins, or scalpels. They are too expensive and fragile to use as tie-up units, there's so many other units in our 'dex that make for good distractions for a lot less points. I would not expect them to deal with chunks of thunder poodles, nobs or assault terminators, they should target non MC ICs, synergy units and ranged units who suck at CC.

 

Survivability beyond first combat in this role is not that interesting, so the points for extra bodies and storm shields are better spent somewhere else. A high number of PW attacks striking at initiative is what we are looking for, with a splattering of meltaboms to use against vehicles in a worst case scenario. MB are not ideal, but they don't strike at I 1 like a fist/hammer and can be deadly against a vehicle that didn't move.

[christheodorou]

great thread guys i was contemplating wether to get some VVs but after reading this i dont think im going to bother ill think ill just get some assult teminators instead

[liberate_tutame]

What about a squad of VV with a powerfist and 4 meltabombs? Seems like it would be a pretty powerful anti-mech unit on the drop, and if the enemy has castled up they should be able to assault 2 or even 3 tanks with a good drop.

[knife&fork]

What about a squad of VV with a powerfist and 4 meltabombs? Seems like it would be a pretty powerful anti-mech unit on the drop, and if the enemy has castled up they should be able to assault 2 or even 3 tanks with a good drop.

 

Very easily countered by moving or bubblewrapping with infantry, tooled up for an even more specific situation than my example.

[Hannibal.Lictor]

Here is my take on the VV, and I been trying to use them. They are too much of a gamble for the points. Even with 1D6 scatter its still not certian they will be in assault range. I have lost this unit to deep strike mishap more than once trying to mitigate that. You will have spent alot of points, 200 or so, on five guys. I would rather drop pod a Furioso with a heavy flamer or frag cannon for that price.

 

I have found that a Stromraven packs more punch and can get one of your RAS or elite units (I run assault terms) into range much better and is a sure bet.

[Mr.darkness]

I happen to disagree with most of the opinions on here. I regularly field 15 or 20 VVs. I usually equip them with a mix of power weapons and power fists. I also have them used in sync with scouts, or drop pods or storm ravens, so they don't scatter. They almost always make their points back by attacking either back field units like long fangs or hive guard or by attacking more elite units like normal termies. They are almost always near a sang priest because i usually deploy them near my own guys with the locator beacons and a priest. Is means that they are striking before most other combat units and they are at strength five with 4 attacks each, a lot of which will also be power weapons.

[SnorriSnorrison]

-VV value compared to other troops:

VV benefit from being able to assault without taking any fire.

VV lose the ability to shoot before they assault, and lose synergy with SPs (no furious charge or FnP on the opening assault).

 

5 man VV squad is 165 points. It is going to charge with 20 S4 attacks at I4.

5 man HG squad is 165 points. It is going to charge with 5 S4 shooting attacks, plus 20 S5 attacks at I5, and FnP.

5 man AS with SP is 175. It is going to have 6 S4 shooting attacks, plus 20 S5 attacks, has FnP and is scoring.

 

I would like to challenge this. Not the maths, which are correct, but the whole attitude.

 

VAS do not have an inbuilt priest and they can't be accompanied by one(due to the HI rule), but they can still benefit from the bubble if you drop an Assault Squad with Priest and other char(Libby, Reclusiarch or Captain) next to it. I have used this combination many times with major success:

the assault marines pop transports/battle tanks and the VAS either assault the disembarking troops or nearby shooty units. A five men squad with 2 powerweapons, 2 claws+shields and one thunderhammer can wipe out a marine squad of ten(even grey knights, to provide a more recent example) if they have furious charge. The FnP is a bonus in most times, as it *should* not be needed anyway, when your squad has wiped out any foe that was part of the unit.

 

HG do have a completely different role on the battlefield, but they can be combined(due to the priest) with a unit of VAS in order to increase their effectiveness. And right there is the synergy.

 

 

 

Snorri

[JamesI]

I happen to disagree with most of the opinions on here. I regularly field 15 or 20 VVs. I usually equip them with a mix of power weapons and power fists. I also have them used in sync with scouts, or drop pods or storm ravens, so they don't scatter. They almost always make their points back by attacking either back field units like long fangs or hive guard or by attacking more elite units like normal termies. They are almost always near a sang priest because i usually deploy them near my own guys with the locator beacons and a priest. Is means that they are striking before most other combat units and they are at strength five with 4 attacks each, a lot of which will also be power weapons.

 

 

Quick question. How many points are the games you are playing with 15-20 Vanguard? 15-20 Vanguard with packs is going to take up the majority of points in a normal sized game.

[knife&fork]

Let's compare two similarly priced units and see how they stack up.

 

HG with 4 PG 225 pts

VV with 5 PW 240 pts

 

vs

 

MEQ (no cover or invul save)

 

Both of these units will inflict an average of 5 wounds on the turn they arrive. While getting in range to rapid fire those plasma guns is easier than pulling off a HI, the VV have a chance to stay in CC for a turn with a severely weakened enemy to evade incoming fire.

[Leksington]

I would like to challenge this. Not the maths, which are correct, but the whole attitude.

 

VAS do not have an inbuilt priest and they can't be accompanied by one(due to the HI rule), but they can still benefit from the bubble if you drop an Assault Squad with Priest and other char(Libby, Reclusiarch or Captain) next to it. I have used this combination many times with major success:

the assault marines pop transports/battle tanks and the VAS either assault the disembarking troops or nearby shooty units. A five men squad with 2 powerweapons, 2 claws+shields and one thunderhammer can wipe out a marine squad of ten(even grey knights, to provide a more recent example) if they have furious charge. The FnP is a bonus in most times, as it *should* not be needed anyway, when your squad has wiped out any foe that was part of the unit.

 

HG do have a completely different role on the battlefield, but they can be combined(due to the priest) with a unit of VAS in order to increase their effectiveness. And right there is the synergy.

 

 

 

Snorri

Did you miss that I was talking about your 3rd or 4th VV squad? We are talking about VV spam here, right? :)

 

I thought I was very clear that 1 or 2 VV squads can be very valuable. I imagine your RAS/SP team ares supporting your 1st or 2nd VV squad? So when measuring the value of your 3rd, 4th, and 5th VV squads to other Marines, you probably won't include FnP or Furious Charge (unless your opponent deployed like a buffoon)

 

If I have you wrong, then I appreciate your bravado! Sending 3-4 SP within your enemy's charge range, with no cover, all so your 5th VV squad has a SP bubble. A bold (if not foolish) move indeed. :D

 

 

Edit: The section of my text you quoted makes more sense if you include the line just before it. B)

[9K Painting]

I always run 2 semi-expensive VV's, I couldn't imagine running more than that.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

BA DoA is all about having a big pair of balls.

 

G ^_^

[SnorriSnorrison]

Did you miss that I was talking about your 3rd or 4th VV squad? We are talking about VV spam here, right? ;)

 

I thought I was very clear that 1 or 2 VV squads can be very valuable. I imagine your RAS/SP team ares supporting your 1st or 2nd VV squad? So when measuring the value of your 3rd, 4th, and 5th VV squads to other Marines, you probably won't include FnP or Furious Charge (unless your opponent deployed like a buffoon)

 

If I have you wrong, then I appreciate your bravado! Sending 3-4 SP within your enemy's charge range, with no cover, all so your 5th VV squad has a SP bubble. A bold (if not foolish) move indeed. :P

 

 

Edit: The section of my text you quoted makes more sense if you include the line just before it. :P

 

Yes....indeed I missed that, sorry! ;)

 

Well, nontheless I have an opinion even on the now changed parameters:

 

If you had your first squad of VAS in range of a SP and your second one too, then those will bring on some serious damage. Assuming that they are one FOC choice and combat squadded, you can freely adjust the weaponry you gave them in order to maximise their damage output.

 

For example, if you need a squad of about 8 marines(assuming that you shot some of them before with preds, etc) totally dead, you put the majority of powerweapons in that squad to make the most of init and S5. The other one, still in range of the SP, then engages a lesser deadly squad in CC, such as Devs or tanks even! meltabombs and a hammer or fist will be needed more than a wave of powerweapon attacks.

 

This may raise the question what this has to do with the 3rd and fourth squad. It is the same principle. If you choose to combat squad those again, you can again split the weapons up where you need them. And if you have taken out the more deadly squads with the first and second VAS, then you can concentrate on those units that can move very fast but are fragile to a storm of CC attacks, may those be powered or not.

 

What I am trying to say is that, even though the units are the same, their tasks on the battlefield change. Those tasks will always be achieved through close combat, but they will have different effects on the opponent's army, for example engage certain units without wiping them out, for what FC and FnP is not necessary. So those VAS could survive on their own and not depend on the Priest's bubble, whereas those which lead your assault should benefit from it.

 

 

If I have you wrong, then I appreciate your bravado! Sending 3-4 SP within your enemy's charge range, with no cover, all so your 5th VV squad has a SP bubble. A bold (if not foolish) move indeed. :P

 

Oh, and you did not get me wrong...I mean it.

 

 

BA DoA is all about having a big pair of balls.

 

G :)

 

 

 

:P

 

 

 

Snorri

[Mr.darkness]

I happen to disagree with most of the opinions on here. I regularly field 15 or 20 VVs. I usually equip them with a mix of power weapons and power fists. I also have them used in sync with scouts, or drop pods or storm ravens, so they don't scatter. They almost always make their points back by attacking either back field units like long fangs or hive guard or by attacking more elite units like normal termies. They are almost always near a sang priest because i usually deploy them near my own guys with the locator beacons and a priest. Is means that they are striking before most other combat units and they are at strength five with 4 attacks each, a lot of which will also be power weapons.

 

 

Quick question. How many points are the games you are playing with 15-20 Vanguard? 15-20 Vanguard with packs is going to take up the majority of points in a normal sized game.

 

 

I usually play 2000 or 2500 pts. My VVs cost 820 pts for all 20. I don't see that as too much.