Stormraven vs Land Raider

[teemoki]

Hi brothers and sisters! As many of you know I play a primarily mech army and have been trying out the Stormraven to fairly good results. I've shared my results in a few posts here and there about my experience. Usually positive!

 

Q: Now I'm curious on what your guys results have been? How have your experiences with the SR been in your Mech armies?

(I am not looking for feedback on DoA lists with the Raven because it has already been thoroughly examined and talked about by Black Orange's articles and posts here on B&C. So for primarily razorspam, predators, vindis, etc type lists.)

 

Also the main point of this thread is for me to try to find out what is the best carrier for my DC squad with Chaplain/Reclusiarch, Honour Guard Death Star or Termies. (Whatever I feel like at the time! :)) I haven't tested a Land Raider yet in my list but have heard good things about them and how hard they are to bring down. I'm sure much harder than a Stormraven...

 

Q: So the question is, for a competitive mech army list, what would you trust your Death Squad in most? Storm Raven or the Land Rader? I've had good experience with the Raven but vs lists with more S8+ shots (DE, SW, IG) I believe it would be much hard to get my CC squad inside into combat... Thoughts on this?

 

 

Note: *In my list whether I end up with the Raven or LR they will only be ran as a one of. I play 1850 tournaments and having 2 is my list soaks up WAY too much points!*

 

Thanks for your guys help!

[1Drop]

I think that if you're crafty enough with the raven and you getting your hammer unit into cc as fast as possible is what you want then the SR is you thing but LR of corse is alot more durable and there are three versions of it and tbh in a tournament environment I'd probably prefer the LR even though the SR is one of my favourite pieces of kit we have.

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see what the vets have to say about this...

[awfulawful]

A single Land Raider carrying a hammer unit will be the target of every melta weapon your opponent has from the first turn right up until it is destroyed, which may very well be the first turn. A single Stormraven will be too, but the Raven moves faster, is less susceptible to meltas, can get a cover save, and will likely dump its cargo by turn two.

[teemoki]

A single Land Raider carrying a hammer unit will be the target of every melta weapon your opponent has from the first turn right up until it is destroyed, which may very well be the first turn. A single Stormraven will be too, but the Raven moves faster, is less susceptible to meltas, can get a cover save, and will likely dump its cargo by turn two.

 

I don't see why a LR won't be able to do this as well. Melta Weaponry (for the most part) have a 6" effective range. 12" obviously for MM which not many people usually have. So wit a 6" effective range as the main threat to the LR that's not a big deal really..by then it will deliver it's cargo.

 

Also I think that a LR can easily get a turn 2 cargo dump as well. 12" 1st turn. 12" + 2" unload + 6" assault...18"...seems pretty easy.

[awfulawful]

I don't see why a LR won't be able to do this as well. Melta Weaponry (for the most part) have a 6" effective range. 12" obviously for MM which not many people usually have. So wit a 6" effective range as the main threat to the LR that's not a big deal really..by then it will deliver it's cargo.

 

Also I think that a LR can easily get a turn 2 cargo dump as well. 12" 1st turn. 12" + 2" unload + 6" assault...18"...seems pretty easy.

 

 

Perhaps your local meta game is slightly different than mine, but here there is no shortage of fast melta, be it multi-melta attack bikes, MM/HF speeders, combi-melta Sternguard in a pod, or whatever else, not to mention lance weapons. Single Land Raiders never seem to last long. It's also a lot tougher to move a Land Raider in anything resembling a straight line, as they can be blocked by terrain (or a single pesky Land Speeder). As a skimmer, the Raven ignores most of these problems.

 

I'm not trying to bash Raiders, I certainly run them in some of my Imperial Fist lists, but for pure Blood Angelish ability to deliver assault troops, I do love the Raven.

 

Side note: If you do run a Raider, which variant are you thinking?

[Black Memories]

Perhaps your local meta game is slightly different than mine, but here there is no shortage of fast melta, be it multi-melta attack bikes, MM/HF speeders, combi-melta Sternguard in a pod, or whatever else, not to mention lance weapons. Single Land Raiders never seem to last long. It's also a lot tougher to move a Land Raider in anything resembling a straight line, as they can be blocked by terrain (or a single pesky Land Speeder). As a skimmer, the Raven ignores most of these problems.

 

I'm not trying to bash Raiders, I certainly run them in some of my Imperial Fist lists, but for pure Blood Angelish ability to deliver assault troops, I do love the Raven.

 

Side note: If you do run a Raider, which variant are you thinking?

 

 

I'd agree with all of this. Especially the straight line part. Land raiders are no only very melta vulnerable, they're difficult to deploy. I've immobilized my land raider on terrain more than any other vehicle in my army. Its a murphy's law thing. The raven is faster and doesn't suffer from potential deployment constraints.

 

In a mech list I have a bit of a different experience with the raider though. My raiders tend to never be the target in mech lists, its rare it sustains any damage at all. People go with the ignore it or bomb it strategy with death-star units, normally. In my experience people have tried their best to ignore it, usually. So it goes both ways.

[Zagman]

People fail to realize that Teemoki isn't talking about running a single Raider in a theoretical vacuum, she is talking about running a Raider in a primarily AV13 spam mech list.

 

Which means your opponent has some very difficult decisions to make, and thats if you haven't deployed two razorbacks or preds close enough to greatly reduce your opponent's ability to melta drop them.

 

And a single BS4 melta has only a 19% chance of destroying a LR. Yes, it happens, but no, it doesn't happen all of the time and more times than not your opponent ends up dropping/turboboosting a relatively squishy unit into a kill zone. Though, my friend's Ven Dread with MM in a pod has done a number to my LRs in the past, it is by no means an auto counter to an LR, especially a LR in a heavy Mech list.

[shatter]

I prefer the Raven. While the LR is harder and will drop down the target priority list of the opponent in a AV 12-13 list in favour of removing range weapon boxes first, it's lack of mobility means it's less killy, especially out the gate when your deployment is cluttered by your own models and intervening terrain.

If a SR moves at combat speed, which a landraider could be expected to use cruising speed to achieve the same maneuver, it can release all it's missiles at a target.

 

If you've got lots of baals, being able to DS/flat out the raven to support them, or hide behind/above them and still shoot again favours the SR as while a LR can DS for us, it still can't shoot through friendly units like the raven can, then leapfrog for delivery in subsequent turns.

 

If you want to put maneuver pressure/constraints on your opponent (as a drop blocker), a DS LR is better than a SR as it's footprint is a bastard to avoid (in inches). But, imo, the risks are too high for this considering it's cost (under2k).

[Redo]

I think they are both great vehicles and have their place in a mech army, yet I think that you need not one but 2 of them in an army otherwise the concentration of fire is too much. Never tried it but one of both could be cool...would have to work out the synergy though.

[Black Memories]

I prefer the Raven. While the LR is harder and will drop down the target priority list of the opponent in a AV 12-13 list in favour of removing range weapon boxes first, it's lack of mobility means it's less killy, especially out the gate when your deployment is cluttered by your own models and intervening terrain.

If a SR moves at combat speed, which a landraider could be expected to use cruising speed to achieve the same maneuver, it can release all it's missiles at a target.

 

If you've got lots of baals, being able to DS/flat out the raven to support them, or hide behind/above them and still shoot again favours the SR as while a LR can DS for us, it still can't shoot through friendly units like the raven can, then leapfrog for delivery in subsequent turns.

 

If you want to put maneuver pressure/constraints on your opponent (as a drop blocker), a DS LR is better than a SR as it's footprint is a bastard to avoid (in inches). But, imo, the risks are too high for this considering it's cost (under2k).

 

 

Combat speed means you can only fire 1 weapon aside from defensive weapons. Unless I'm missing something I do believe the stormstrike missles count as using a weapon for the purposes of how many weapons per turn one can fire. Maybe I'm wrong and being one shot weapons they can always be fired at combat speed.

[syypher]

Long time tread-head here.

 

TBH the cut and dry way to choose between SR and LR is not loadout or speed. They both are pretty deadly when looked at from a weaponry standpoint and both can pretty much get a turn 2 assault if your smart and deploy appropriately. LOS'ing yourself gets fixed with time and experience playing the games.

 

Best way I like to think about it is dependability. There is a lot more variance when your trying to do something with your SR than the LR because of the LRs toughness. AV14 is tough nut to crack. MOST meltas are going to be needing 6" to do anything. Remember the few that have MM and get into the 12" threat range are going to have 1/3rd cancelled out if you have a Librarian around to pop a shield.

 

So in my opinion a LandRaider is just a better pick. Don't want to get into all the tiny details here and there because I can go on and on but they are just more dependable. Both are going to cost a large amount of points in your list. I would rather rely on a LR to deliver its cargo than rely on the SR to when it's a lot of points invested in it. Both are great but I prefer to keep the SR loaded with something deadly but not taking too much points up. Like a Furioso or something.

[teemoki]

Ya, I think they are both great. But I agree...in a tournament or competitive setting if you have something you can depend on better it probably will be a better pick! :teehee: Going to test out the LR and see what happens.

 

Still trying to decide on Termies + SP, 7 DC + Chaplain/Reclusiarch, or Honour Guard as my dedicated CC unit.

 

Thoughts on which CC unit wrecks the most?

[Black Memories]

Land raider is probably a better choice for a mech list. I love my stormraven(s), but I find they excel in an assault-based or balanced/hybrid mech list, not so much a heavily shooting mech list.

 

As far as CC units. Nothing says death star like assault terminators. Terms + SP + reclusiarch or librarian is going to win a the combat against anything.

 

Honor guard is good, basically power armored assault terminators that can sweeping advance (important). Death company are offensive juggernaughts, but offer little in the way of defensive abilities. All around your best choice is assault terminators. Personally I love the models, assault terminators look fantastic in red.

[sp4rky]

assault terminators look fantastic in red.

 

Everything looks good in red!

 

 

I run 1 Land Raider in my 1500 point mech list and I find it generally gets immobilised or worse on turn 1. In contrast, I find that the maneuverability of the Storm Raven means it can get a cover save quite frequently and as it can move further (twice as far!) it is easier to keep it in cover without wasting too much time.

[shatter]

I prefer the Raven. While the LR is harder and will drop down the target priority list of the opponent in a AV 12-13 list in favour of removing range weapon boxes first, it's lack of mobility means it's less killy, especially out the gate when your deployment is cluttered by your own models and intervening terrain.

If a SR moves at combat speed, which a landraider could be expected to use cruising speed to achieve the same maneuver, it can release all it's missiles at a target.

 

If you've got lots of baals, being able to DS/flat out the raven to support them, or hide behind/above them and still shoot again favours the SR as while a LR can DS for us, it still can't shoot through friendly units like the raven can, then leapfrog for delivery in subsequent turns.

 

If you want to put maneuver pressure/constraints on your opponent (as a drop blocker), a DS LR is better than a SR as it's footprint is a bastard to avoid (in inches). But, imo, the risks are too high for this considering it's cost (under2k).

 

 

Combat speed means you can only fire 1 weapon aside from defensive weapons. Unless I'm missing something I do believe the stormstrike missles count as using a weapon for the purposes of how many weapons per turn one can fire. Maybe I'm wrong and being one shot weapons they can always be fired at combat speed.

 

SR is fast.

0" stationary = all weapons (+PotMS)

-6" combat speed = all weapons (+PotMS)

-12" DeepStriking/cruising = one weapon and all defensive (+PotMS)

LR is not fast

0" stationary = all weapons (+PotMS)

-6" combat speed = one weapon and all defensive weapons (+PotMS)

-12" DeepStriking/cruising = nothing (except PotMS)

[1Drop]

I like both SR and LR loads but if I could only have one of either in my list I'd go for the SR as you can get better manuverability and cover saves when going flat out which will increase survivability for a single unit.

 

I plan on using LR's but 3 of them (2 godhammers and 1 variant) but I probably wouldn't run and LR unless I could have atleast 2. I did used to think that about the SR too but I believe that 1 SR is quicker and can be deployed alot more sneakily than a bulking LR.

[SevenExxes]

I think a Land Raider in a mech heavy list would be fairly protected, especially if that list included Baal Predators. And in a mech list they should definitely be included.

So there are at least two Baal's, fast moving tanks with Scout special move that will pose a greater threat earlier on in the battle rather then the Land Raider that is still moving up.

 

Like someone said earlier, terrain will pose a greater threat to the Land Raider in a mech heavy list then the enemy.

[Black Memories]

SR is fast.

0" stationary = all weapons (+PotMS)

-6" combat speed = all weapons (+PotMS)

-12" DeepStriking/cruising = one weapon and all defensive (+PotMS)

LR is not fast

0" stationary = all weapons (+PotMS)

-6" combat speed = one weapon and all defensive weapons (+PotMS)

-12" DeepStriking/cruising = nothing (except PotMS)

 

 

Right, sorry. I was getting my cruising/combat speed names and their appropriate speeds confused. Just ignore my post. Rules wise I had the right idea, the terminology mistake on my part threw me under the bus.

[Brother Kovash]

I'm going to side with the SR just for the extra capacity to carry a Dreadnought into battle as well as a full squad. I've seen a furioso dread dropped in to assault a unit and rip it apart, then watched a tactical squad that was also dropped in take an objective with zero difficulty. I think some people are forgetting the SR is an assault vehicle too.

[Zeller]

Though I haven't used a SR yet as I'm negotiating the acquisition of one I will say this on behalf of Land Raiders. They are tough and they are powerful. Unfortunately lance weapons lower their armor and not the SR's. Additionally the SR can transport my DCFD with blood talons along with my DC right into the action. I'd consider using both a LRC and a SR with similar setup and see what happens. With DC in the LRC it would be very important to stop that tank quickly. On the other hand with a SR containing SG w/ priest and a DCFD w/ talons as well as the same armaments as a LRC on the SR the opponent would have to choose. Either way I get some nasty buggers into your lines. Either way I still have a predator and a vindicator ready to blow your lines to hell. Unfortunately I need to field test this idea.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would go with the Stormraven. As said it's faster and you have a better chance of getting the charge. I'd take a Furioso along as well. Might as well make the most out of it. Sure it's lots of eggs in one basket but it hits like a ton of bricks.

 

G :cuss

[CaptainLNH]

I recomend the Stormraven. Faster than LR, more weapons than LR, less pts. than LR, looks cooler than LR, and only we and the GK have them.