Which CC beast to take?

[teemoki]

Thank you everyone so much for all your help I have always gotten from you guys! You are real quick to response and such a great community helping each other get better and learn ^______^

 

With my last post between SR vs LR I was decided to start testing the LR. With the durability and reliability of the LR I will probably end up choosing it for my list. (Depend on the testing - lets not turn this into a SR vs LR thread ^O^;)

 

Soooo, I was thinking I would like to take a CC scary unit in them and am having a hard time decided.

 

I am decided on either: (All of these will probably be accompanied by a Librarian of some sort)

7-8 DC (bolters, 1 PF, 1 TH) + Chaplain or Reclusiarch

5 Termies (2 TH/SS, 3 LC) + Sang Priest + Chaplain?

Honour Guard (2x Dual LCs, 2x LC/SS, TH/SS Banner)

 

What would you take and why? Thanks :P

[Spam Monkey]

DC.

in a raider. Then pump the unit to capacity.

[Ebsolom]

I'd go for DC with a Reclusiarch in a Redeemer purely out of personal preference :P . It will draw a ton of fire allowing your other units a round or two to do their stuff.

[appiah4]

10 DC, 10 Bolters, 2 Power Fists, 1 Drop Pod.. Oh yeah..

[1Drop]

I think cc terminators go really well with a LR and it's what I'm filling mine with, 2 LC 3 TH/SS with corbulo and chaplain.

 

I think if you're going to use an HG give them jp's, it's the only unit in my lists that has jp's and will be accompanied by Dante.. My HG loadout is

 

Melta gun + LC

Melta gun + LC + Banner

LC + SS

LC + SS

Novitiate

[JamesI]

I'd lean towards the terminators, either with a chaplain/reclusiarch or a librarian (for unleash rage) and of course a priest.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Depends, really. Death Company has the cheapest delivery system, as they can have pods and rhinos. The suggested 10 bolters 2 PF is great, as it keeps you from overkilling, and at least lets you shoot at something if you're chasing a speeder for the rest of the game. The entire units runs 285 points, and doesn't need any aux. I.C's.

 

If you go for terminators, cost skyrockets due to them needing a raider or SR. And possibly a priest. I've found that L.C termies are reaaaaally good for B.A. Quite possibly "too" killy even. Hammernators are good to, but we pay more points for those, and a priest doesn't do anything too good for them.

 

The honour guard is simply too expensive for my tastes. Dual ligtning claw isn't really worth it, if you want to run those.

 

And I just noticed you wanted a Raider XD. Crap. But consider this: if you go for death company in a Stormraven, they can have Lemartes. Lemmy kicks so much ass it's not even funny. On the downside, you'd end up with 1 dude with a jump pack and eight without. That might look a bit dumb.

[chaplain belisarius]

death company led by a chaplain...in a rhino...fantastic fun!

 

hope this helped! :tu:

[1Drop]

I think people are missing the point, she is taking a LR, she just wants to know what to fill it with!

[chaplain belisarius]

death company...great fun! :tu:

[liberate_tutame]

I think the Death Company are the better choice with a chappy or reclusiarch. But therein lies the problem, if you only want to run a Librarian as your HQ, then the Termies will probably be the better choice. When you are running DC you really do want to unlock that Liturgies of Blood reroll hits and wounds. It's wonderful. Also, you'll probably should be multi assaulting coming out of the raider, with 9 or 10 DC that's a little easier and more reliable then with 5 Temies.

 

I guess I have just found the effectiveness of Termies drop sharply after they get that first hit, whereas DC generally keep trucking till the last man.

[shatter]

Considering the rest of your list has the big guns, I'd go for bolter DC too. With the bolters, they can shoot stuff (infantry) even if their ride is blown or circumstance places them outside of assault for whatever reason.

The choppy HG and termies need to assault or they're nothing special, well, beyond absorbing fire.

 

Termies and priest would be my next choice for their ability to absorb fire. However, if you're spending all those points on a LR, a termie squad, a priest, a chaplain and a libby, I worry at the impact on your mech' list's chassis count.

Also, if the priest (and of course the chaplain and libby) all have power weapons, I'd increase the ratio of hammernators to LCs. maybe to 4:1.

 

If you changed your mind and went the SR route, I'd go with DC with Lemartes or HG & banner

[Taranis]

I would go for DC too. Half with bolters, the rest with a mix of powerfists and power weapons. Add chaplain for added cc charge effect. Perhaps in terminator armour?

 

Any bat reports posted anywhere?

[Baba Lem]

Zooming around in a Rhino, drop the Bolters. Make full use of furious charge.

 

And whenever it'd be reasonable to fire bolters, just run toward the enemy!

 

Bolters on the Fist/Hammer, though.

 

HG and Termis are quite pricey, but an LRC with Assault Terminators, Libby and Priest can pretty much kill it all and even add some survivability with a stormshield or two on the 'nators.

[toaae]

Honor guard aren't worth considering for this role. They are a great support unit, but not a great hammer (or "deathstar") unit. Also, the configuration for HG you posted is illegal, since you can't give the Novitiate any upgrades.

 

I use Death Company or Terminators as hammer units. While mine travel in a Stormraven, the change to a Landraider makes no difference to the unit itself.

 

Death Company with 10 models, 3 power weapons, 2 Thunder hammers and a chaplain

Terminators with 3 LCs, 2 TH/SS, priest (who I leave in the transport to broadcast his bubble) and a chaplain

 

So far, my experiences have shown me that the Death Company are the more killy unit, but the Terminators are more durable. After that initial charge, the DC's effectiveness suffers a massive fall-off, while, in comparison, the Terminators only get a little less deadly. Also, their superior armor save and the Storm Shields help them hang around. On the other hand, the loss of 1 DC member isn't as hurtful as the loss of 1 terminator.

 

Guess I'm saying model per model, Terminators are more resilient, but unit by unit, the Death Company are.

 

Anyways, go with whichever you like more. Or be like me, and build both units and switch between them. Of those two set ups, the DC is more expensive by like 60 points, though if you're going with a LRC, you could always add terminators.

 

 

Last note: if you change your mind and go with a Storm Raven, be sure to make the DC's chaplain Lemartes. Not an IC, and gets ridiculously deadly once he takes a wound.

[Hannibal.Lictor]

DC in a Raven with Lemie and a DC dread. Get the 18 inch move, dump the riders. I have hurricane bolters on mine (Str 4 wep def) shoot those and the asscan POTM the melta/HB. Assault with the DC. Then move flat out or whatever next turn. I also have termies in a LR inmy 1750 list with a Libby and unlesh rage. The LC terms on a charge with that thing is a little nuts. I have 3 LC so thats what 4 attacks a piece that they are rerolling hits and wounds.

 

Both are solid. The one downside to the DC is they are wild animals that run around acording to their own set of priorities. Rage can be a real pain, but man they bring it. I cant say how win dual blood talons is on a DC Dread with FC. That thing is also fleet, so you hav a potential threat range of 18 inches. Bet on 14.

[AbusePuppy]

Let's go with the caveats first: I'm only looking at effectiveness here. Which you like more or consider more fun is entirely personal, so I can't advise you there. Also, I'm assuming you kit these units out "properly" (which is to say again: in the most effective manner); changes can drastically shift how well they actually perform.

 

Assault Terminators have a number of advantages, not the least of them being resilience and flexibility. And, unlike the Death Company, they don't pay for it by acting stupid whenever there's an enemy nearby. These dudes you will want to run with, at the least, a Sanguinary Priest nearby- doesn't have to be in the Raider with them, but it's one good option if you don't give him Termie armor- this makes all the difference, as it makes them effectively immune to non-PW attacks and lets the Claws in the squad strike before the enemy and hit harder; having a Librarian around with some combination of Unleash Rage, Sanguine Sword, Blood Lance, or Shield of Sanguinous is also very handy for getting them to perform. This is probably your "best" choice, assuming you can spare the two Elites slots it takes. 3/2 or 2/3 on Claws/Hammers is about the ratio you want; I err slightly towards Claws to kill things before I have to take saves, but you can go either way.

 

Death Company are actually pretty scary when you pair them up wiht a Chaplain or Reclusiarch- even without Power Weapons you can pour out so many attacks very few enemies stand a chance against you. Overspending on them is easy, however, and the Rage rule can be very limiting to them. Also, without a Stormraven to help out, you can't easily bring along a DC Dread (another major advantage of having them) and can't stick Lemartes in the squad to give them a Chappy that can't be singled out, as dude has a jump pack and thus can't embark in the LR. DC will be better able to make multicharges and are less dependent on their "tagalong" units than Termies are, but they are very tricky to use and will struggle if they don't get the charge on things. ~1PW or PFist per 4 members feels about right to me, so you have some options for cutting down tougher dudes, but 1 per 3 is also fine; more than that is overinvesting, I think. Don't bother with the various pistol options, they aren't worth it.

 

(As amusing as it is to equip DC with Bolters, it's generally not good idea. +1attack is better than some mediocre shooting, as it's easy to screw yourself out of a charge when the enemy fails a morale check.)

 

Honor Guard and the other options are not nearly as strong as the above two in terms of pure melee combat and needn't particularly be considered.

[Eorek]

DC is maybe the hardest hitting unit in game... epecially with a chaplain with them... but they ain't super durable.

 

and hammer termies are still hammer termies... 5 termies with either 5 storm shields or 2 claws and 3 chiels accompanied with a librarian/sanguinary priest(leave the priest in side the raider for FNP/FC bubble) will work wonders....

 

Though DC is waaaay more Blood angel-y! But hammer terimes are still hammer termies...

[teemoki]

Ok so everyone is saying either between Terminators and DC...

 

Terminators are more reliable because of no anger, but DC can more easily multi-assault.

Terminators are more survivable, but DC are deadlier on the first assault.

Terminators (in my configurations) cost less than DC. (Terminator + SPriest + Librarian but I don't count the Librarian since it's pretty much my HQ of choice as well for both lists vs 7 DC with TH + PF + Chaplain)

Terminators can more easily consolidate back into their transport since DC have to move towards nearest enemy.

Terminators won't get totally annihilated by regular armor ignoring fire.

 

 

Best factor for me is that they are cheaper too , which lets me work around with the rest of my list better. Will probably end up testing out Terminators! Going with a 3:2 LC:TH/SS ratio. Also going with Unleash Rage for reroll hits. LC's reroll wounds so that's a lot of killy turn 1 assault. Will have a priest nearby as well.

 

Q: What do you guys suggest for my priest, considering they will get the FNP/FC bubble either situation. Should I keep the priest inside the Land Raider or take him out to add more attacks? What's the best way to run him?

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I'd say that depends on if you actually need him. If you want to squat a few orks, I'd take him out of the ride. Against hammernators, not so sure. I usually give mine a single lightning claw.

[Black Memories]

Ok so everyone is saying either between Terminators and DC...

 

Terminators are more reliable because of no anger, but DC can more easily multi-assault.

Terminators are more survivable, but DC are deadlier on the first assault.

Terminators (in my configurations) cost less than DC. (Terminator + SPriest + Librarian but I don't count the Librarian since it's pretty much my HQ of choice as well for both lists vs 7 DC with TH + PF + Chaplain)

Terminators can more easily consolidate back into their transport since DC have to move towards nearest enemy.

Terminators won't get totally annihilated by regular armor ignoring fire.

 

 

Best factor for me is that they are cheaper too , which lets me work around with the rest of my list better. Will probably end up testing out Terminators! Going with a 3:2 LC:TH/SS ratio. Also going with Unleash Rage for reroll hits. LC's reroll wounds so that's a lot of killy turn 1 assault. Will have a priest nearby as well.

 

Q: What do you guys suggest for my priest, considering they will get the FNP/FC bubble either situation. Should I keep the priest inside the Land Raider or take him out to add more attacks? What's the best way to run him?

 

 

Keep in mind when comparing offensive prowess of the two units you need to ask yourself how much do you love overkill? Anything without massive amounts of good invuln. saves will be obliterated by both termies and DC, and frankly I think without power weapons in the DC, the terminators are more powerful on offense anyways. Most of the time if you're charging an MEQ or god-forbid something lesser with your terminators, you're going to wipe them out entirely on I5. Your thunder hammers wont get to come into play unless you're fighting something tougher. Likewise if you ARE fighting something tougher, assault terminators are by far the better option as they're designed to take down the big guys.

 

Death company are excellent assault troops, but they're complimentary assault troops. If there's one way to play DC wrong it's to let them attempt to run around as the lone main assault unit. They just are not very good at that. Unsupported they die.

 

Keep in mind you can run/consolidate/charge the death company wherever you want, its only the movement that you must rush the nearest enemy unit. They aren't THAT uncontrollable. They just dont have the staying power and offensive power combined that assault terminators have, but they can sweeping advance.

 

As far as the priest. I'd say if you're fighting something with higher initiative, leave him inside the transport, if you're fighting something super super tough, maybe take him out. In generally it won't hurt you to take him out and rush with the terminators.

[shan vener]

do what i do

land raider redeemer w/ extra armor. hunter killer missile

chaplain in TDA

10 DC, 8 w/ power swords, 2 w/ hand flamers

 

yeah sure it may be 730 points but no one i have fought has ever gotten that kill point. once i had just them fight 1500 points of nids. they won.

[Black Memories]

Played against an identical setup in a tournament except with a LR godhammer. Absolutely power stomped it with my assault terminators. Popped it with multi meltas and just obliterated the death company. They didn't even get to attack except for the chaplain, who did nothing to my terminators, and then was killed by thunderhammers. To be fair deathstars are very very popular in my local meta, so I have a lot of practice dismantling them. The problem he had, as you would have, or anyone that runs that unit. Is even in a 2000 point game. If that unit is destroyed, you lose the game. Realistically it's a very vulnerable unit.

 

Out of curiosity, why would you ever put your chaplain in TDA? That loses you an attack and prevents the entire 10 man death company squad from being able to sweeping advance when winning combat. That seems beyond counter-productive.

[shan vener]

Played against an identical setup in a tournament except with a LR godhammer. Absolutely power stomped it with my assault terminators. Popped it with multi meltas and just obliterated the death company. They didn't even get to attack except for the chaplain, who did nothing to my terminators, and then was killed by thunderhammers. To be fair deathstars are very very popular in my local meta, so I have a lot of practice dismantling them. The problem he had, as you would have, or anyone that runs that unit. Is even in a 2000 point game. If that unit is destroyed, you lose the game. Realistically it's a very vulnerable unit.

 

Out of curiosity, why would you ever put your chaplain in TDA? That loses you an attack and prevents the entire 10 man death company squad from being able to sweeping advance when winning combat. That seems beyond counter-productive.

 

well a few thing here

1. all my other chaplains have a jump pack

2. it was a freindly game so we got rid of the rule about no sweeping advances in TDA

3. due to it being a friendly game that one unit was all i had, he had a 1500 point army

4. do you expect anything to be left for the DC to advance on? ;)

[Black Memories]

I believe her intent was to play in a real game in a more competitive environment where the rules are played more closely. Not just getting after you, but I think the OP was asking for more relevant advice instead of a staged combat situation.

 

Also yes I expect for your tyranid opponent to have something for you to sweeping advance. Perhaps he rolled terribly or just didn't take Zoanthropes, but every Tyranid player I've seen loves to see landraiders because they just psychic lance them down and can usually swarm what's inside. Tyranids aren't normally that tough overall for BA's, but 1 squad and a land raider vs 1500 points of tyranids and you had nothing else on the table? I'm skeptical of the situation.