Which CC beast to take?

[syypher]

I believe her intent was to play in a real game in a more competitive environment where the rules are played more closely. Not just getting after you, but I think the OP was asking for more relevant advice instead of a staged combat situation.

 

Also yes I expect for your tyranid opponent to have something for you to sweeping advance. Perhaps he rolled terribly or just didn't take Zoanthropes, but every Tyranid player I've seen loves to see landraiders because they just psychic lance them down and can usually swarm what's inside. Tyranids aren't normally that tough overall for BA's, but 1 squad and a land raider vs 1500 points of tyranids and you had nothing else on the table? I'm skeptical of the situation.

 

This. If the OP is talking about competitive environment and suggestions it would not really be appropriate to give such a situation like the 700pt DC vs 1500pt Nids. Not trying to get after you or anything either, just that you didn't even mention you gave staged specific situations. How is she suppose to know that when you give a situation like that? She will assume you aren't talking about bending rules and stuff and it would skew her view on DC vs Terminators.

 

On topic: Teemoki you should test out both. The biggest difference is that DC are a bit killier than Terminators. (With the setup you want to run) Taking that into account you need to assume you are going to be left out in the open after you kill whatever it is with your DC. Do you play with a good amount of terrain allowing you to jump into cover? Do a lot of the tournaments you have seen or the people you play with run a lot of AP1/2 or double str weapons that would threaten your DC in the open? Will you have a Librarian nearby to possibly provide a 5+ cover for those types of weapons that ignore armor and FNP? Terminators being a little bit less killy and unable to sweep may allow you to finish combat on your opponents turn which is ideal.

 

With that said another thing to think about is multi-charging. It will be much easier to do it with DC + Lemartes vs 5 Termies + Libby. There are more bodies and DC can run and still assault giving you better positioning. Do you see this being used often?

 

Ask yourself all those questions and think about your common opponents you play against. If your thinking about tournaments think about those questions in relation to vs SW, IG, BA, DE, and GK.

[Leksington]

Probably the most useless advice you'll get in this thread:

Try them both, see which you prefer. ;)

 

I'd try the DC first. They strike me as a better value (in my opinion), but can be hard to handle. Play them and see how well you can tame their wild nature. See if you enjoy them and that style of play. If they prove too unreliable for you (or you just don't like their play style) then go with the terminators.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is my best assault unit:

 

Epistolary - jump pack, unleash rage & sanguine sword, hand flamer

 

Honor Guard - jump packs & chapter banner

HG #1: lightning claw & stormshield

HG #2: lightning claw & stormshield

HG #3: pair of lightning claws

HG #4: thunderhammer & stormshield

Novitiate

 

They all ride in a raven with a Furioso in tow (pair of Bloodfists & heavy flamer). I prefer Honor Guard over terms because of the jump pack. The main problem with terms is they are foot slogging once they disembark. Sure they are going to beat just about anything they hit on the initial charge but after that versus a shrewd opponent they may have problems making it into another combat. Honor Guard with the Epistolary are highly mobile - plus you've got the Sanguine Sword (S10) and the thunderhammer to crack armor if necessary.

 

G ;)

[Black Memories]

I dont agree that terminators are tougher to multiple assault with. With the terminators you are likely to bring 2 characters, this brings your model count to 7. Also consider that terminator bases are massive. That alone can allow you to wiggle your way into multiple assaults with your terminator squadron, and they will fare better against return fire than death company if some of those squadrons have powerfists or whatever else attached. Personally I think it's easier to get termies into multiple assaults more so than death company.

[syypher]

Bigger bases sure but 2" (disembark) + 6" assault < 2" + d6" run + 6" assault. I was assuming coming out of a vehicle when I made that statement. Now if your footslogging around then DC probably still come out on top of that because of the run + assault. But if you find it easier then to each his own :)

[Crynn]

I dont agree that terminators are tougher to multiple assault with. With the terminators you are likely to bring 2 characters, this brings your model count to 7. Also consider that terminator bases are massive. That alone can allow you to wiggle your way into multiple assaults with your terminator squadron, and they will fare better against return fire than death company if some of those squadrons have powerfists or whatever else attached. Personally I think it's easier to get termies into multiple assaults more so than death company.

 

I wouldn't necassaraly agree with all that. The terminators are really only more survivable than DC if they have a priest with them which can be easily sniped in combat or if they have one hanging around AND they all (or most) have to be TH/SS termies. 9 dc and chaplain costs less than 5 normal termies and a lib (for rerolls to hit) and is much cheaper if the termies have hammers. The dc can also stretch quite a bit further for multi assaulting. The dc will do considerably more dmg against most targets even those power armoured for instance, 5 TH/SS termies on the charge will kill 9 marines presuming they all live to attack, (if we are talking about lightning claw termies then they are not more survivable even with a priest than equivilant points of DC to return fire) the DC will kill 9 as well however they will generally hit first and thus always do this amount of dmg due to FC. Against a target with 5+ saves, the termies still only kill 9 where as the dc kill 18, the stats favour the DC even more if the opposed unit is toughness 3 instead of the presumed 4.

 

I am not necassaraly disagreeing with this statement as a whole, however and don't think it's quite so clear cut. Their are very good cases for both units and I think it comes down to the rest of the army make up.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn.

[syypher]

I dont agree that terminators are tougher to multiple assault with. With the terminators you are likely to bring 2 characters, this brings your model count to 7. Also consider that terminator bases are massive. That alone can allow you to wiggle your way into multiple assaults with your terminator squadron, and they will fare better against return fire than death company if some of those squadrons have powerfists or whatever else attached. Personally I think it's easier to get termies into multiple assaults more so than death company.

 

I wouldn't necassaraly agree with all that. The terminators are really only more survivable than DC if they have a priest with them which can be easily sniped in combat or if they have one hanging around AND they all (or most) have to be TH/SS termies. 9 dc and chaplain costs less than 5 normal termies and a lib (for rerolls to hit) and is much cheaper if the termies have hammers. The dc can also stretch quite a bit further for multi assaulting. The dc will do considerably more dmg against most targets even those power armoured for instance, 5 TH/SS termies on the charge will kill 9 marines presuming they all live to attack, (if we are talking about lightning claw termies then they are not more survivable even with a priest than equivilant points of DC to return fire) the DC will kill 9 as well however they will generally hit first and thus always do this amount of dmg due to FC. Against a target with 5+ saves, the termies still only kill 9 where as the dc kill 18, the stats favour the DC even more if the opposed unit is toughness 3 instead of the presumed 4.

 

I am not necassaraly disagreeing with this statement as a whole, however and don't think it's quite so clear cut. Their are very good cases for both units and I think it comes down to the rest of the army make up.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn.

 

Not to mention Terminators don't have assault grenades. If they aren't assaulting out of a LR then those LCs are attacking last through difficult terrain as well. :|

[Black Memories]

This is going to be really long but hopefully people will understand more where I'm coming from and why I'm saying certain things aren't a big deal or very comparable/factual. Hopefully someone reads this so I'm not explaining it to myself. :)

 

Crynn:

 

I don't know what you're basing any of your statement on but it actually is that cut and clear. A death company marine with feel no pain have the same chance to survive a basic attack as a terminator. that 3+/FNP is exactly statistically the same as a 2+ save. However, the terminators get a 5+/3+ invulnerable save that the death company do not have access to. I don't know how you're possibly arguing survivability unless you're talking about all 9 DC and the chaplain. Also if you take any special weapons, that death company unit immediately equals the price of the terminator unit, so they are not cheaper. By this I mean if you take 1 thunderhamer in your death company, then that's 210 points with 9 guys. 3 lc/2 th terminators (how most people run them) are 210 points. So I don't know what you're talking about there. The way the OP had suggested their DC kitted out was 7 regs and 1 th/1 pf I believe. That is more expensive than the assault terminator unit. Also as far as toughness goes, you're awfully dismissive of the 2+/5++(3++) saves the terminators get and how well they lend themselves to not only close combat but dealing with a plethora of shooting after they defeat a unit in combat or take a battle cannon shot to the face (ordinance tends to direct hit my units). Sure you can spread out, but I sure do like my 2+ saves against battle cannons and AP3 weapons, likewise my 3+ invulns against plasma and the like.

 

Effectively what you've done in your comparison it kept the chaplain with the DC and thrown out the characters in the assault terminator squad to raise the effectiveness of the DC "to par" with the assault terminators. That's a major flaw in your comparison, it isn't equal. You'd have to remove the chaplain from the DC's effectiveness as well. Either way your argument is totally silly in that the units in question are not going to be run as you're suggesting anyways as the DC will be kitted out differently and the assault terminators will have the necessary modifications to make them a legitimate death star unit. Essentially you weighted an argument in a scenario that is both unfair and irrelevant to make a point. So while I agree with some of what you're saying I think your comparison is not a good one.

 

Other comparison information:

 

This is just a general comparison since most people seem to be stating some differences between the two units and based on what I'm reading I don't think everyone has either tested them both extensively or totally understand exactly what the number differences are in the units. This is looking at the offensive hitting power gap of the two units, and frankly it isn't nearly the margin everyone is making it out to be. I'm going to give examples of the complete units because it's how they will actually be fielded, so keep that in mind. After/if you read this hopefully you'll better understand why I'm saying that the units are almost totally identical except for where they are on the force org (irrelevant in the given army we're talking about), the ability to sweeping advance, and actual unit toughness.

 

Price wise once you add in the priest, does the assault terminator unit become more expensive? Yes. But the unit's offensive capability rises as well. 5 assault terminators with a reclusiarch/power weapon sang priest is 40 points more expensive than 9 dc with a reclusiarch with a pf and th. Not quite the difference some are grasping for. Also theoretically speaking if you don't take a reclusiarch for the DC then you need an additinoal HQ for a legal army, making the death company significantly more expensive. If there is going to be another HQ taken anyways than ignore that last bit.

 

Additionally there seems to be this myth going around that chainsworded DC are more "killy" than assault terminators, that really isn't true at all, especially not against MEQ units as is being describing and definitely not as the units increase in toughness/invulnerable saves/multiple wounds. While death company equipped with specialty weapons can absolutely destroy things, they are simply not the offensive juggernauts that you're asserting without any special weapons. Keep in mind that chaplain is also lacking furious charge in the death company unit. Also I personally don't have an issue with the priest being sniped in close combat. The reason is simply do not put him in front of the unit of terminators and you get to decide where he goes. Once you engage the powerfist or power weapon model then that model is unable to attack the priest without also being in base with the priest (easily avoided with massive termie bases). Honestly most of the time it won't matter, because as you described the initiative bonus the terminators get tips the scales. 5 w5 s5 chaplain attacks, 4 ws5 s5 priest attacks, then 12 ws4 s5 LC attacks all rerolling to hit will usually get you more than 9 kills. Personally where I play there are a ton of MEQ, and power weapon wounds that reroll reroll are much more valuable than regular attacks that reroll reroll. Even if I need to roll 4's to hit instead of 3's.

 

For comparative purposes at I5 with the listed DC squad you're getting 5 ws5 s4 power weapon attacks which cancel out several of the actual wounds caused by the DC (unless taken as a chaplain deliberately which is probably better unless you need an HQ). and 28 ws5 s5 regular attacks. With the terminators you get 5 I6 w5 s5 chaplain attacks, 4 ws5 s5 priest attacks, then 12 ws4 s5 LC attacks all rerolling to hit just like the DC. Personally where I play there are a ton of MEQ, and 21 s5 power weapon wounds at varying initiative, 9 at s5, 12 of which reroll reroll are much more valuable than 28 regular attacks that reroll reroll and 4/5 power weapon attacks at s4. Even if I need to roll 4's to hit instead of 3's. This isn't even counting the slower weapons, since I think we can all agree those cancel out.

 

Personally I play with both assault terminators and death company frequently. I rarely make a list without including at least one of these units as I absolutely love running elite melee armies. They're both excellent units. They have different strengths, but some of the people listing things on here are not talking about what's relevant to this discussion. They're talking about units in a vacuum. Many also seem to be missing what the differences are. The only advantage death company gain offensively over assault terminators when running with the idealized setup of the OP is ws5. That's it. There are no further offensive advantages, in fact there are several off-setting disadvantages. There is a slight price advantage of about 40 points. That's nothing. The advantage of assault terminators truly shines, as a stand alone assault unit, when that big bad "oh crap he's in my army" guy gets into your army and they pop out and deal with it, no matter what it is. The death company simply do not have that same ability in every situation, nor can they withstand a charge the same way an assault terminator unit can.

 

Again the differences really come down to toughness vs sweeping advancing/ws5. Those are really the only major differences between the units. They're offensively comparable, model count comparable, multiple assault-length comparable, and point-value comparable. They're going to fit in the same transport, they're going to fulfill the same role in the gun-based mech army the OP is planning to run. The only difference is how well they do their specific job. Frankly the ability to counter something really big and mean and/or have greater survivability outside of a transport makes me side with the assault terminators in this regard. For what it's worth the unit I use to counter death company squads used by the other blood angel's players in the area (there's a lot of them here) is assault terminators. Also like mentioned before, their ability to stand up to enemy shooting cannot be underestimated. Basically you can drop them off and let them go and let the LR do something else. That's huge. Especially in objective games. Major threat saturation. The death company are similar but much easier to take out with some anti-heavy infantry shooting.

 

Thanks for reading my monologue. I really feel like we've bonded. :)

[Crynn]

This is going to be really long but hopefully people will understand more where I'm coming from and why I'm saying certain things aren't a big deal or very comparable/factual. Hopefully someone reads this so I'm not explaining it to myself. :)

 

Crynn:

 

I don't know what you're basing any of your statement on but it actually is that cut and clear. A death company marine with feel no pain have the same chance to survive a basic attack as a terminator. that 3+/FNP is exactly statistically the same as a 2+ save. However, the terminators get a 5+/3+ invulnerable save that the death company do not have access to. I don't know how you're possibly arguing survivability unless you're talking about all 9 DC and the chaplain. Also if you take any special weapons, that death company unit immediately equals the price of the terminator unit, so they are not cheaper. By this I mean if you take 1 thunderhamer in your death company, then that's 210 points with 9 guys. 3 lc/2 th terminators (how most people run them) are 210 points. So I don't know what you're talking about there. The way the OP had suggested their DC kitted out was 7 regs and 1 th/1 pf I believe. That is more expensive than the assault terminator unit. Also as far as toughness goes, you're awfully dismissive of the 2+/5++(3++) saves the terminators get and how well they lend themselves to not only close combat but dealing with a plethora of shooting after they defeat a unit in combat or take a battle cannon shot to the face (ordinance tends to direct hit my units). Sure you can spread out, but I sure do like my 2+ saves against battle cannons and AP3 weapons, likewise my 3+ invulns against plasma and the like.

 

Effectively what you've done in your comparison it kept the chaplain with the DC and thrown out the characters in the assault terminator squad to raise the effectiveness of the DC "to par" with the assault terminators. That's a major flaw in your comparison, it isn't equal. You'd have to remove the chaplain from the DC's effectiveness as well. Either way your argument is totally silly in that the units in question are not going to be run as you're suggesting anyways as the DC will be kitted out differently and the assault terminators will have the necessary modifications to make them a legitimate death star unit. Essentially you weighted an argument in a scenario that is both unfair and irrelevant to make a point. So while I agree with some of what you're saying I think your comparison is not a good one.

 

Other comparison information:

 

This is just a general comparison since most people seem to be stating some differences between the two units and based on what I'm reading I don't think everyone has either tested them both extensively or totally understand exactly what the number differences are in the units. This is looking at the offensive hitting power gap of the two units, and frankly it isn't nearly the margin everyone is making it out to be. I'm going to give examples of the complete units because it's how they will actually be fielded, so keep that in mind. After/if you read this hopefully you'll better understand why I'm saying that the units are almost totally identical except for where they are on the force org (irrelevant in the given army we're talking about), the ability to sweeping advance, and actual unit toughness.

 

Price wise once you add in the priest, does the assault terminator unit become more expensive? Yes. But the unit's offensive capability rises as well. 5 assault terminators with a reclusiarch/power weapon sang priest is 40 points more expensive than 9 dc with a reclusiarch with a pf and th. Not quite the difference some are grasping for. Also theoretically speaking if you don't take a reclusiarch for the DC then you need an additinoal HQ for a legal army, making the death company significantly more expensive. If there is going to be another HQ taken anyways than ignore that last bit.

 

Additionally there seems to be this myth going around that chainsworded DC are more "killy" than assault terminators, that really isn't true at all, especially not against MEQ units as is being describing and definitely not as the units increase in toughness/invulnerable saves/multiple wounds. While death company equipped with specialty weapons can absolutely destroy things, they are simply not the offensive juggernauts that you're asserting without any special weapons. Keep in mind that chaplain is also lacking furious charge in the death company unit. Also I personally don't have an issue with the priest being sniped in close combat. The reason is simply do not put him in front of the unit of terminators and you get to decide where he goes. Once you engage the powerfist or power weapon model then that model is unable to attack the priest without also being in base with the priest (easily avoided with massive termie bases). Honestly most of the time it won't matter, because as you described the initiative bonus the terminators get tips the scales. 5 w5 s5 chaplain attacks, 4 ws5 s5 priest attacks, then 12 ws4 s5 LC attacks all rerolling to hit will usually get you more than 9 kills. Personally where I play there are a ton of MEQ, and power weapon wounds that reroll reroll are much more valuable than regular attacks that reroll reroll. Even if I need to roll 4's to hit instead of 3's.

 

For comparative purposes at I5 with the listed DC squad you're getting 5 ws5 s4 power weapon attacks which cancel out several of the actual wounds caused by the DC (unless taken as a chaplain deliberately which is probably better unless you need an HQ). and 28 ws5 s5 regular attacks. With the terminators you get 5 I6 w5 s5 chaplain attacks, 4 ws5 s5 priest attacks, then 12 ws4 s5 LC attacks all rerolling to hit just like the DC. Personally where I play there are a ton of MEQ, and 21 s5 power weapon wounds at varying initiative, 9 at s5, 12 of which reroll reroll are much more valuable than 28 regular attacks that reroll reroll and 4/5 power weapon attacks at s4. Even if I need to roll 4's to hit instead of 3's. This isn't even counting the slower weapons, since I think we can all agree those cancel out.

 

Personally I play with both assault terminators and death company frequently. I rarely make a list without including at least one of these units as I absolutely love running elite melee armies. They're both excellent units. They have different strengths, but some of the people listing things on here are not talking about what's relevant to this discussion. They're talking about units in a vacuum. Many also seem to be missing what the differences are. The only advantage death company gain offensively over assault terminators when running with the idealized setup of the OP is ws5. That's it. There are no further offensive advantages, in fact there are several off-setting disadvantages. There is a slight price advantage of about 40 points. That's nothing. The advantage of assault terminators truly shines, as a stand alone assault unit, when that big bad "oh crap he's in my army" guy gets into your army and they pop out and deal with it, no matter what it is. The death company simply do not have that same ability in every situation, nor can they withstand a charge the same way an assault terminator unit can.

 

Again the differences really come down to toughness vs sweeping advancing/ws5. Those are really the only major differences between the units. They're offensively comparable, model count comparable, multiple assault-length comparable, and point-value comparable. They're going to fit in the same transport, they're going to fulfill the same role in the gun-based mech army the OP is planning to run. The only difference is how well they do their specific job. Frankly the ability to counter something really big and mean and/or have greater survivability outside of a transport makes me side with the assault terminators in this regard. For what it's worth the unit I use to counter death company squads used by the other blood angel's players in the area (there's a lot of them here) is assault terminators. Also like mentioned before, their ability to stand up to enemy shooting cannot be underestimated. Basically you can drop them off and let them go and let the LR do something else. That's huge. Especially in objective games. Major threat saturation. The death company are similar but much easier to take out with some anti-heavy infantry shooting.

 

Thanks for reading my monologue. I really feel like we've bonded. :)

 

You are incorrect I am afraid mate.

 

My statistics include both the benefits of the dc having a chaplain and the terminators having a lib for reroll hits. My stats show the death company at equivilant point cost to the terminators actually cheaper by 20 points. Chaplian +9 dc = 280pts lib +5 termies =300-325 points. In all cases I have given the terminators the benefit of a priest for survivability as well. simply put 5 termies is = to 10 DC in its durability against small arms fire and the dc are tougher versus heavy fire as +5 wounds is stronger than a 5+ invuln not to mention the chaplain has an invuln and the lib doesnt. These are units of close to comparable points cost where I have given the terminators a slight advantage by including a priest in the stats but not in the points.

 

As for dmg, the stats I wrote had NO upgrades for the DC on them and thus were exactly correct to point cost and to the mathamatical dmg they will produce. If I were to start adding the points for power weapons that would counter the =20 -45 points that the termies cost + 50 for the priest the dc would dominate even more. I am not arguing that one is better than the other but in the situation mentioned the dc are clearly a stronger hammer unit as that point cost.

 

They will not fit in the same sized transport. The DC will fit in any land raider taking up only 10 spots the termies plus priest plus lib take up 12 and must have bigger raiders to gain assault grenades if using Lightning claws. Most of the time the termies multi charge stretch length is more than enough however it is not comparable at all the (if you inlude the priest in the charge which we are talking now +70-95 points over the dc) have a spread of up to 23 inches which is more than enough, however the DC are still able to spread much wider at 31", pretty useless statistic exept once the unit starts taking casualties the dc will be able to continue to multi charge at a large stretch.

 

I would appreciate you checking my statitics and re-reading my statements before forcing me to write such a long reply although I must say we are forming a beautful bond indeed.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[shan vener]

i was just making a unit suggestion and backed that up with game play

nothing more nothing less

[Black Memories]

I'm not sure what you're basing the 9 wounds being better than 5 wounds with invuls on but your math is way off. Giving you a fair comparison of using lascannon shots from a WS4 shooter. It would take on average 17 shots to kill 9 death company marines. However it would take 28 shots to kill 5 terminators with thunder hammer/stormshields. On average it would take 14 shots from the same shooter to take down 5 full LC terminators. So your 9 death company marines are actually closer in toughness to the 5+ invul terminators than the storm shielded terminators. If you run 2 th/ss and 3 LC you're looking at 20 lascannon shots required, and 3 th/ss and 2 lc you're looking at 23 shots. The curve spikes from there as you add 2 more models and invulnerable saves for the librarian and priest. Either way that isn't a minor difference. Terminators are significantly tougher to kill with heavy weapons and armor ignoring fire than death company, less models or not. This comparison is also slanted in favor of the death company in that I'm not even going to bother with S8 AP3 weapons like krak missles or battle cannons since that's so lopsidedly in the terminator's favor that it isn't worth comparison. I know some IG players that love them some battle cannons, so this is actually pretty important.

 

Small arms fire I'm not going to bother addressing as without a priest a 3+/4+ is the exact same as a 2+. That is a 16.7% probability of dying to an unsaved wound. With FnP obviously the terminators spike up, having a ~92% chance to save themselves from a regular wound.

 

The reason i disregarded the damage stats you configured for your 9 naked DC is because like I said they were irrelevant to the discussion as the OP isn't taking 9 naked DC. Either way if you want to argue offensive output of the DC vs lib + assault terms costing 280 vs 325 without a SP. You're averaging 9.3 wounds assuming you're running all thunder hammers out of the terminator squad, without the librarian's attack rolls. You also pick up the toughness of terminator armor + stormshields. By comparison you're only averaging 7.4 wounds for 7 death company with chainswords with double rerolls. The power fist and thunder hammer are giving you another 5.7 wounds on the charge. You're actually averaging 9.5 wounds sans chaplain attacks for the 9 naked DC, so I'd go with the pf/th setup as it averages about 13. That number goes down significantly if you fight an enemy that's WS5 or higher (which is why they're excellent troop killers), terminator's numbers do not, also worth noting at the terminator squad is taking a major offensive hit with 5 thunder hammers and no SP rolls, which would in reality be included with the librarian's rolls and the DC would only pick up the chaplain's rolls, and he's the least effective offensive character of the 3 due to no furious charge.

 

Basically what I'm saying is terminators are far tougher than death company and can deal equivalent damage at a minimal point differential. The point is assault terminators can stand up against stuff that can mop the death company. Thus they're better for this list in a land raider. The reason they have the same transport is because that's what they'll be riding in.

 

As far as if the prices go up, the prices can go up a LOT on the death company, but they don't get a benefit from it. Reason being-- you don't really get much out of the power weapons for your death company past the first 3, for the same reason you don't get much value out of taking a 4th LC terminator. You're just over-killing the unit with power weapon attacks at that point. Eventually it's just an expensive with no value if you keep striking the price higher. With the added value from the SP in the terminator squad you gain much more than extra power weapon attacks, you gain furious charge and feel no pain and you don't start wasting your own non-powered attacks that you're paying out the wazoo for. I'd say if you ran dead on equivalent costs, the damage results from the two units would tip slightly in favor of the death company, but really it would be pointless. For what it's worth I run my death company smaller with special weapons for the same reason I run my assault terminators. Power weapons deny opponents the chance to have a hot hand with saves and post-10 wounds It doesn't usually make a difference. I'll take the "guaranteed" 10 wounds any day over letting them roll.

[teemoki]

I'm not sure what you're basing the 9 wounds being better than 5 wounds with invuls on but your math is way off. Giving you a fair comparison of using lascannon shots from a WS4 shooter. It would take on average 17 shots to kill 9 death company marines. However it would take 28 shots to kill 5 terminators with thunder hammer/stormshields. On average it would take 14 shots from the same shooter to take down 5 full LC terminators. So your 9 death company marines are actually closer in toughness to the 5+ invul terminators than the storm shielded terminators. If you run 2 th/ss and 3 LC you're looking at 20 lascannon shots required, and 3 th/ss and 2 lc you're looking at 23 shots. The curve spikes from there as you add 2 more models and invulnerable saves for the librarian and priest. Either way that isn't a minor difference. Terminators are significantly tougher to kill with heavy weapons and armor ignoring fire than death company, less models or not. This comparison is also slanted in favor of the death company in that I'm not even going to bother with S8 AP3 weapons like krak missles or battle cannons since that's so lopsidedly in the terminator's favor that it isn't worth comparison. I know some IG players that love them some battle cannons, so this is actually pretty important.

 

Small arms fire I'm not going to bother addressing as without a priest a 3+/4+ is the exact same as a 2+. That is a 16.7% probability of dying to an unsaved wound. With FnP obviously the terminators spike up, having a ~92% chance to save themselves from a regular wound.

 

The reason i disregarded the damage stats you configured for your 9 naked DC is because like I said they were irrelevant to the discussion as the OP isn't taking 9 naked DC. Either way if you want to argue offensive output of the DC vs lib + assault terms costing 280 vs 325 without a SP. You're averaging 9.3 wounds assuming you're running all thunder hammers out of the terminator squad, without the librarian's attack rolls. You also pick up the toughness of terminator armor + stormshields. By comparison you're only averaging 7.4 wounds for 7 death company with chainswords with double rerolls. The power fist and thunder hammer are giving you another 5.7 wounds on the charge. You're actually averaging 9.5 wounds sans chaplain attacks for the 9 naked DC, so I'd go with the pf/th setup as it averages about 13. That number goes down significantly if you fight an enemy that's WS5 or higher (which is why they're excellent troop killers), terminator's numbers do not, also worth noting at the terminator squad is taking a major offensive hit with 5 thunder hammers and no SP rolls, which would in reality be included with the librarian's rolls and the DC would only pick up the chaplain's rolls, and he's the least effective offensive character of the 3 due to no furious charge.

 

Basically what I'm saying is terminators are far tougher than death company and can deal equivalent damage at a minimal point differential. The point is assault terminators can stand up against stuff that can mop the death company. Thus they're better for this list in a land raider. The reason they have the same transport is because that's what they'll be riding in.

 

As far as if the prices go up, the prices can go up a LOT on the death company, but they don't get a benefit from it. Reason being-- you don't really get much out of the power weapons for your death company past the first 3, for the same reason you don't get much value out of taking a 4th LC terminator. You're just over-killing the unit with power weapon attacks at that point. Eventually it's just an expensive with no value if you keep striking the price higher. With the added value from the SP in the terminator squad you gain much more than extra power weapon attacks, you gain furious charge and feel no pain and you don't start wasting your own non-powered attacks that you're paying out the wazoo for. I'd say if you ran dead on equivalent costs, the damage results from the two units would tip slightly in favor of the death company, but really it would be pointless. For what it's worth I run my death company smaller with special weapons for the same reason I run my assault terminators. Power weapons deny opponents the chance to have a hot hand with saves and post-10 wounds It doesn't usually make a difference. I'll take the "guaranteed" 10 wounds any day over letting them roll.

 

Just curious Black, how many DC do you run and what is the wargear loadout of them? I'd like to try out smaller DC squad as well. Have you had good experience with them at that low model count? Would it work out having a LR:R + Termies and a smaller DC squad in a rhino or is that too many points in 2x CC specialist units in 1850? Does your small DC squad ride a rhino? SR? LR?

 

Thanks and sorry for the question spam :P

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

DC are glass hammers. You can make terms or HG have basically all the same advantages by way of HQ/SP. I have noticed that while BA are popular on the tournament circuit you don't see many armies with any DC.

 

G :P

[Isryion]

Just curious Black, how many DC do you run and what is the wargear loadout of them? I'd like to try out smaller DC squad as well. Have you had good experience with them at that low model count? Would it work out having a LR:R + Termies and a smaller DC squad in a rhino or is that too many points in 2x CC specialist units in 1850? Does your small DC squad ride a rhino? SR? LR?

 

Thanks and sorry for the question spam ;)

 

Not that you were asking me, but a unit of 6 DC with PS and PF in a razor has been a very excellent unit for me over the last year. I have actually recently increased their size, though, due to the fact that I now have them in a stormraven.

[teemoki]

Just curious Black, how many DC do you run and what is the wargear loadout of them? I'd like to try out smaller DC squad as well. Have you had good experience with them at that low model count? Would it work out having a LR:R + Termies and a smaller DC squad in a rhino or is that too many points in 2x CC specialist units in 1850? Does your small DC squad ride a rhino? SR? LR?

 

Thanks and sorry for the question spam :tu:

 

Not that you were asking me, but a unit of 6 DC with PS and PF in a razor has been a very excellent unit for me over the last year. I have actually recently increased their size, though, due to the fact that I now have them in a stormraven.

 

Hmm..how do you deal with the fact that it isn't an assault vehicle ;)

 

Im under the influence that Termies, DC and CC oriented HG should always be in assault vehicles.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you have a heavy mech army then there is no need to buy them an expensive transport... it rolls up behind other vehicles and they are basically a counter assault unit. Really though Mephiston is the best choice for this role IMO.

 

G :D

[Black Memories]

Just curious Black, how many DC do you run and what is the wargear loadout of them? I'd like to try out smaller DC squad as well. Have you had good experience with them at that low model count? Would it work out having a LR:R + Termies and a smaller DC squad in a rhino or is that too many points in 2x CC specialist units in 1850? Does your small DC squad ride a rhino? SR? LR?

 

Thanks and sorry for the question spam

 

 

When I run death company I generally run them with Lemartes and 6 death company models with 3 power weapons and a thunder hammer or 2 power weapons (depending on the points allowed). I run them in a storm raven with a death company dreadnought and they just terrorize stuff. Yes, it is extremely effective. I actually don't recall the last time that unit was totally wiped off the board but it's been a while (it has happened I just dont remember). Depending on the opponent I may sub out an addition regular guy for a power fist and run 2 power weapons and a pf/th combo with lemartes. Lemartes kind of makes that squad, he's insanely good even before he's wounded.

 

As far as running the DC and the terminators, that's a bit expensive and really you'd have to rework most of your list. The DC would essentially be running no characters and be a suicide unit. Your list doesn't really support that. If you want an extra power house in close combat then I'd recommend mephiston since he's great in a mech list. However if you take him and the terminators you're looking at a significant loss in firepower at 1850 due to the pricing of the two units.

 

Also I'd take a crusder and not the redeemer if I were you. I've found the crusader is just incredibly good. To be fair I haven't tested the redeemer. But I would absolutely support a LR:C choice.

[Isryion]

Just curious Black, how many DC do you run and what is the wargear loadout of them? I'd like to try out smaller DC squad as well. Have you had good experience with them at that low model count? Would it work out having a LR:R + Termies and a smaller DC squad in a rhino or is that too many points in 2x CC specialist units in 1850? Does your small DC squad ride a rhino? SR? LR?

 

Thanks and sorry for the question spam :P

 

Not that you were asking me, but a unit of 6 DC with PS and PF in a razor has been a very excellent unit for me over the last year. I have actually recently increased their size, though, due to the fact that I now have them in a stormraven.

 

Hmm..how do you deal with the fact that it isn't an assault vehicle :(

 

Im under the influence that Termies, DC and CC oriented HG should always be in assault vehicles.

 

That's understandable, but at 205 I don't need them to assault when they come out. Often, I'd park the razor near an enemy unit. That unit would often have very few options to get away. If they blow up the razor, the DC are out. If they don't, the DC can still assault provided they get out before the RB moves. If the enemy blows up the razor and then shoots at the DC that's ok, too, they're going take a lot of fire at a cheaper cost than my other units. I guess my point is, at that cost, they don't have to be a hammer but are still viable as one. They can also draw a lot of attention and distract your opponent. Whereas when I bring my 8+ in a stormraven, they better do something, or they're a lot of wasted points.

[captain Angel]

i run my death company with a chappie, and from 3 to thirty with one fist or hammer per 10 guys (counting the chappie as one). I find that with the chappie, the power sword is taken care of.

[Crynn]

I'm not sure what you're basing the 9 wounds being better than 5 wounds with invuls on but your math is way off. Giving you a fair comparison of using lascannon shots from a WS4 shooter. It would take on average 17 shots to kill 9 death company marines. However it would take 28 shots to kill 5 terminators with thunder hammer/stormshields. On average it would take 14 shots from the same shooter to take down 5 full LC terminators. So your 9 death company marines are actually closer in toughness to the 5+ invul terminators than the storm shielded terminators. If you run 2 th/ss and 3 LC you're looking at 20 lascannon shots required, and 3 th/ss and 2 lc you're looking at 23 shots. The curve spikes from there as you add 2 more models and invulnerable saves for the librarian and priest. Either way that isn't a minor difference. Terminators are significantly tougher to kill with heavy weapons and armor ignoring fire than death company, less models or not. This comparison is also slanted in favor of the death company in that I'm not even going to bother with S8 AP3 weapons like krak missles or battle cannons since that's so lopsidedly in the terminator's favor that it isn't worth comparison. I know some IG players that love them some battle cannons, so this is actually pretty important.

 

Small arms fire I'm not going to bother addressing as without a priest a 3+/4+ is the exact same as a 2+. That is a 16.7% probability of dying to an unsaved wound. With FnP obviously the terminators spike up, having a ~92% chance to save themselves from a regular wound.

 

The reason i disregarded the damage stats you configured for your 9 naked DC is because like I said they were irrelevant to the discussion as the OP isn't taking 9 naked DC. Either way if you want to argue offensive output of the DC vs lib + assault terms costing 280 vs 325 without a SP. You're averaging 9.3 wounds assuming you're running all thunder hammers out of the terminator squad, without the librarian's attack rolls. You also pick up the toughness of terminator armor + stormshields. By comparison you're only averaging 7.4 wounds for 7 death company with chainswords with double rerolls. The power fist and thunder hammer are giving you another 5.7 wounds on the charge. You're actually averaging 9.5 wounds sans chaplain attacks for the 9 naked DC, so I'd go with the pf/th setup as it averages about 13. That number goes down significantly if you fight an enemy that's WS5 or higher (which is why they're excellent troop killers), terminator's numbers do not, also worth noting at the terminator squad is taking a major offensive hit with 5 thunder hammers and no SP rolls, which would in reality be included with the librarian's rolls and the DC would only pick up the chaplain's rolls, and he's the least effective offensive character of the 3 due to no furious charge.

 

Basically what I'm saying is terminators are far tougher than death company and can deal equivalent damage at a minimal point differential. The point is assault terminators can stand up against stuff that can mop the death company. Thus they're better for this list in a land raider. The reason they have the same transport is because that's what they'll be riding in.

 

As far as if the prices go up, the prices can go up a LOT on the death company, but they don't get a benefit from it. Reason being-- you don't really get much out of the power weapons for your death company past the first 3, for the same reason you don't get much value out of taking a 4th LC terminator. You're just over-killing the unit with power weapon attacks at that point. Eventually it's just an expensive with no value if you keep striking the price higher. With the added value from the SP in the terminator squad you gain much more than extra power weapon attacks, you gain furious charge and feel no pain and you don't start wasting your own non-powered attacks that you're paying out the wazoo for. I'd say if you ran dead on equivalent costs, the damage results from the two units would tip slightly in favor of the death company, but really it would be pointless. For what it's worth I run my death company smaller with special weapons for the same reason I run my assault terminators. Power weapons deny opponents the chance to have a hot hand with saves and post-10 wounds It doesn't usually make a difference. I'll take the "guaranteed" 10 wounds any day over letting them roll.

 

My gosh, please read posts correctly when commenting. I will put this bluntly. My math is exactly correct, 100%

 

first how is 9 wounds tougher than 5 with termie armour, because while they are almost exactly the same versus light fire against heavy fire they are tougher agiainst low ap fire. First in my arguement, for point cost reasons I use LC termies as they are cheaper and as I already stated if you use TH/SS termies they are tougher to low ap fire only. So 5 LC termies requires 5x1.33333 wounds to kill with ap 2 weapons which equals 6.6666 the DC require 9, that is pretty clear, significantly tougher. In order for them to be of similar toughnes we would be looking at 3 LC and 2 TH/SS termies this is of course presuming a player isn't good enough to consolidate into cover or be attacking into cover or using their transport for cover which make the DC tougher no matter what is shooting them. With the small arms fire simply put the dc are almost twice as tough. If you have a priest then put the equivilant points into more dc and again they are still tougher.

 

Secondly on to damage. Again please read what I wrote I use 9 nakes DC as it kills almost anything without power weapons. If you want to talk toughness then you have to take SS/TH termies that strike at i1 then you have to factor in how many will be left to attack back once the enemy has already attacked. If you want dmg go lightning claws however you dont get it both ways, you are saying termies are significantly tougher take your SS ones, hell lets give you a priest and see your dmg. you do just over 9 wounds with the termies the dc on the other hand do 27 so against low armoured targets the dc do more , against marine armoured targets the dc do more because if you even loose even 1 termie you drop below 9 wounds dmg output and i am 45 points cheaper than you. The dc toughness is also in the fact they destroy what they hit so unlike TH termies who have to weather attacks first. For instance if that dc unit hit your termies you would have 1 left to strike with without that priest even with the priest you would still loose combat and cost 95 points more. If you want to equall this dmg you will need LC termies and a priest in which case for the same cost the DC will still kill more marines and be tougher against all types of attacks. Yes against WS 5 opponents the DC loose some dmghowever it is by no means huge and majority WS of 5+ is not all that common.

 

In regards to your statement about prices saying that death company can hike for not much benefit, I agree, thats why you simply keep them cheap and the stats will say that the dc will still be more effective than termies. Their is only 2 advantages to termies. They do not have rage, no rage is brilliant and allows you to do many things however in a land raider or transport which for termies has to be a land raider the dc are tougher do more dmg and are cheaper, its that simple. The other advantage is that they don't loose out as much as dc when being charged. Disadvantage - rage, Advantage - they have grenades and can dominate multicombats much more than assault termies can.

 

The only time you can ever be tougher than the dc for point cost is if you have TH/SS termies with a priest and the dc are standing in the open being shot by ap 2 weapons. any other combination leaves the DC tougher, put them in cover (which isnt hard to do with clever play) and they will ALWAYS be harder to kill than your assault termies even if they have storm shields and a priest.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

Appologies that was long.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

9x naked DC w. Chaplain =

36 attacks (not including Chaplain) -> 24 hit vs. WS4 + 9 more hits w. rerolls -> 33 hits total

29 wounds total vs. T4 with rerolls

So almost 10 dead vs. 3+ Sv

 

5x LC terms w. Chaplain & Priest =

15 attacks (not including Chaplain or Priest) -> 11.25 hits total vs. WS4 w. rerolls

10 unsaved wounds total vs. T4 with rerolls

 

Sounds good in theory but if you factor in FNP for the enemy squad, higher WS or higher T then the DC does not fare nearly as well. On top of that there are units such as Incubi/Wyches that strike first or simo and will obliterate the DC while the terms have a much better chance of surviving the first round of combat. Finally you shouldn't necessarily assume either BA unit will get the charge. So basically naked DC are overkill vs basic MEQ units, will sweep on the charge then are left standing in the open to soak up enemy firepower the next turn... That's the problem with mathammer in a vacuum - it may not necessarily equate to actual conditions in a game.

 

The best build for five terms is 2 X LC & 3 X TH/SS in my opinion. Sure you're paying extra for the upgrades but it is well worth it in game terms.

 

G :D

[Black Memories]

I changed some of the arguments around so that they'd make a bit more sense, especially offensively as I'll explain below. Since you called my math out I'll go through exactly the steps required for the probability of a high strength AP shot to actually cause enough wounds to take out an entire squad of each. Using the same formula I'll also go through some offensive statistics so you can see just how close the two units are offensively when appropriately equipped to each other.

 

 

The math used below (and in the previous posts) is the algebraic equivalent for the average of a negative binomial distribution which is (n)(p). N=number of shots and P=Probability of success. You need 9 total success for the death company and 5 for the terminators. N keeps rising until the minimums of 9.0 and 5.0 are broken, then N is the average required shots to take down the entire given unit. P in this situation is .5581 for the death company and .186 for stormshielded terminators and .372 for lightning claw terminators due to invulnerable saves. That is to say on average it will take you N tries to achieve 9 successes at the given probability.

 

It's getting frivolous at this point but I'm sorry your math is not correct. You're dealing with a probability of 1 shot killing a model, not total "wound absorption". There is a major mathematical fallacy where you're taking wounds and adding them up like that. That simply isn't how it's rolled. If you run 5 th/ss terminators with your math you're looking at 5x1.667 wounds due to the 3+ saves. That brings you to ~8.3 wounds, which is still under nine, even though you're willing to say stormshields are stronger. Your logic gets in the way of the actual math here I think. It's not so easily calculated. The way you calculate the "toughness" or the amount of shots a unit can take is by doing all of the math, not just the wounds. You take the total number of shots times the chance to hit (.6667), that number times the chance to wound (.83333). That is your wound probability of a lascannon, which is about .5581 (surprisingly small but supports why lascannons suck vs low toughness troops). If you run the numbers, 16 shots at a .5581 wound probability will net you about 8.8 wounds, you're looking for 9 wounds so you go up to 17 shots because your minimum is 9. This is basic probability stuff. The reason terminators are worth more is because they get an additional probability modifier that requires you to multiply that .5581 by .3334 since that's the actual chance to get through a storm shield (or likewise .6667 for lightning claws). That gets your probability of a kill down to .186 per lascannon shot on an assault terminator with a stormshield. That means that you need 28 shots to net 5.2 (again minimum of 5 is what we're looking for) wounds on 5 assault terminators, compared to the 17 to get 9 static kills on the death company. Your math seems logical, but that's not how probability works. Specifically it isn't how warhammer works. I didn't use 5 lc terminators in my original example because honestly no one fields them, so it seemed silly. Every other popular configuration of assault terminators is tougher than 9 death company marines.

 

 

For ease of reference, shots to kill models with lascannons on average:

 

9 Death company-17

5 lc terminators-14

2 lc/3 th-20

3th/2 lc- 23

5 th-28

 

So all but 5 lightning claw terminators are tougher with their 5 models against low ap weaponry than terminators. The problem with your offensive stats is you're including a SP but you're also not including him at the same time. It's very confusing as to if I'm using him or not. So what I did was configure my terminators the same way in both examples. Those 9 wounds caused by the terminators are unsavable wounds. Even though you said your death company was doing 27 wounds, that number is again divided by .3334 against MEQ troops because of the armor saves. You're actually doing slightly more than 27 unsaved wounds but that's ok, I think I said the number was like 9.5 on average. So while this unit is actually cheaper than the terminators, this is a total silly argument to make because a) this unit will not be fielded. and B ) anything remotely tough or anything that happens to be a dreadnought getting into this unit will savage this unit and make them look like girls at a tea party. So what I did was modified the unit to combat effectiveness. Your wounds per round actually goes up quite a bit with if you take a th/pf anyways, so you might as well include them. Also because death company WILL be tooled up in some way, as said before, the difference in the point costs ranges from a maximum of 110 points (chaplain+sp+5 th/ss, vs naked DC w/ chaplain, which again is a silly comparison for several reasons), to 50 points (3 lc/2 th+chaplain/sp vs 7 bp/cc, 1 pf, 1 th+chaplain dc). basically the point values are not so astronomically far off that taking the DC is just THAT much cheaper. They're expensive models too. So I think the point cost thing really is a weak arguing point. But are expensive units to field at combat effectiveness.

 

Again for comparison without any character rolls but with their bonuses: (terminators are being rolled with SP bonuses as you asked) These are average probabilities of unsaved wounds on the charge by each respective unit. Appliable rerolls are included for all necessary models.

 

9 naked dc- 9.48 wounds w/ chaplain- 11.26

7 bp/cc, pf, th- 13 wounds w/ chaplain- 14.77

3 pw/bp dc, 1 bp/cc, th- 12.99 (only 5 dc in this squad). w/ chaplain- 14.768 (with lemartes)-16.15 (unleashed fury)-18.7

3 lc/2 th- 9.7 wounds w/ chaplain/sp- 14.44

5 th/ss- 9.3 wounds w/ chaplain/sp-14.04

 

So as I said before, the death company have a slight nod in offensive ability when tooled up, but once you add the characters the non-tooled death company get run over by their tooled up counter-parts and assault terminator squads for not so very different prices (in addition to lacking raw non-vacuum battlefield ability as we discussed above). I've said on this board before that death company have the best offensive capability in the game, I stand by that. But they have a significant drop in defensive ability per model and as a unit against tougher opposition when compared to terminators. The misconception I'm constantly arguing about is that death company are not run away favorites, especially not with pitch forks and bolt pistols, over the assault terminators as you yourself and others seem to be making it out to be, specifically on offense. You're actually the only one arguing for them defensively, though you shouldn't as we've shown now that your math was a bit off.

 

That small squad of death company was thrown out there because that's closer to how I personally run them, and it displays their effectiveness when compared to a more chainsword-based and bigger death company squads that some people insist are better offensively. Yeah, Lemartes is that awesome.

[Crynn]

9x naked DC w. Chaplain =

36 attacks (not including Chaplain) -> 24 hit vs. WS4 + 9 more hits w. rerolls -> 33 hits total

29 wounds total vs. T4 with rerolls

So almost 10 dead vs. 3+ Sv

 

5x LC terms w. Chaplain & Priest =

15 attacks (not including Chaplain or Priest) -> 11.25 hits total vs. WS4 w. rerolls

10 unsaved wounds total vs. T4 with rerolls

 

Sounds good in theory but if you factor in FNP for the enemy squad, higher WS or higher T then the DC does not fare nearly as well. On top of that there are units such as Incubi/Wyches that strike first or simo and will obliterate the DC while the terms have a much better chance of surviving the first round of combat. Finally you shouldn't necessarily assume either BA unit will get the charge. So basically naked DC are overkill vs basic MEQ units, will sweep on the charge then are left standing in the open to soak up enemy firepower the next turn... That's the problem with mathammer in a vacuum - it may not necessarily equate to actual conditions in a game.

 

The best build for five terms is 2 X LC & 3 X TH/SS in my opinion. Sure you're paying extra for the upgrades but it is well worth it in game terms.

 

G :D

 

Except again you fail to see that against incubi 10 dc has a much better chance of surviving than those terminators, don't make statements without checking them bro. Mathhammer does work in a vacuum but both those units will be left out in the open from overkill however the dc can take it back a little more in most caseses especially if you are smart enough to at least consol or already be in cover, termies have no grens so are less likely to charge a unit in cover. I'm not saying termies are worse than dc however in this context they are, again for the cost you could have more dc than I have been allowing, I have given the termies almost every benefit and still the dc will out perform. If you are not transporting either of these units in a raider the scenrio changes significantly and my argument would thus differ greatly too, infact I would advocate for the termies due to rage and all the rest of it. If you want to say 'factor in feel no pain and higher WS for enemy squads' to lessen the DC effect you could say the same for termies with just 'the enemy isnt in power aromour or the enemy has invul saves which are probably is more likely than them having FnP or being weapon skill 5+ then the termies drastically decline in efficiency. Unfortunately you cannot equate for every occurance and I am not saying mathhammer will however in a practical fight those DC will outberform those terminators. If the Math isn't enough to prove a the point take it from someone whos played with a raider termie/DC combo for 30+games with BA's and done very well with them, that the termies do not perform as well as the DC.

 

Again not taking a raider so we are talking foot slogging now, I advocate the exact opposite way.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn.

[Black Memories]

I find it ironic since you claim to not be arguing in a vacuum but that's all you've done with me until now mathhammer has turned against you. I'm not exactly sure why you think you're giving terminators every advantage when they're a unit that stand alone needs some augmentation, but in the situation we're talking about they are going to get that augmentation, and stand alone they aren't far off anyways. Also I find it bizarre that you think it isn't relevant to change the argument even though we're not fighting a vacuum to increase FNP and toughness of targets. The reason why that's relevant much more so than your argument for lower-armored units is that generally you aren't sending your death company or terminator assault squad after average joe and his drinking buddies. You're sending them to kill the enemy assault terminators, or Hive Tyrant deathstar unit, or daemon prince, or something really big and tough. Your 9 bp/ccw death company are going to bounce off a FNP WS5 Nobz squad like they didn't exist to begin with. You have other units that can deal with the weaker units, especially in a Blood Angels army. Outside a vacuum of course.

 

Also outside a vacuum, who the hell takes 9 death company all with bp/ccw anyways? Why are we discussing imaginary units no one would ever field. That unit isn't even scary.

[Crynn]

I find it ironic since you claim to not be arguing in a vacuum but that's all you've done with me until now mathhammer has turned against you. I'm not exactly sure why you think you're giving terminators every advantage when they're a unit that stand alone needs some augmentation, but in the situation we're talking about they are going to get that augmentation, and stand alone they aren't far off anyways. Also I find it bizarre that you think it isn't relevant to change the argument even though we're not fighting a vacuum to increase FNP and toughness of targets. The reason why that's relevant much more so than your argument for lower-armored units is that generally you aren't sending your death company or terminator assault squad after average joe and his drinking buddies. You're sending them to kill the enemy assault terminators, or Hive Tyrant deathstar unit, or daemon prince, or something really big and tough. Your 9 bp/ccw death company are going to bounce off a FNP WS5 Nobz squad like they didn't exist to begin with. You have other units that can deal with the weaker units, especially in a Blood Angels army. Outside a vacuum of course.

 

Also outside a vacuum, who the hell takes 9 death company all with bp/ccw anyways? Why are we discussing imaginary units no one would ever field. That unit isn't even scary.

 

Except that I haven't argued in a vacuum, i've constantly said the dc can get cover easy by multiple means giving them huge toughness advantage over the termies or that charging into terrain is a disadadvantage for termies or plenty of times given the termies the benefit of a having a priest. As for the math, its all in my favour. You said that 9 dc is weaker to incubi than 5 LC terminators! Your own statement. The DC require 9 wounds to kill from them where as the terminators require 6.66666, not to mention the incubi hit the termies easier due to WS, the DC will require almost twice the attacks to kill! Are you an a few arrows short of a quiver, do you not realize what you are posting? I can't argue with someone who puts math down that doesnt support his arguments then says it does. As for who takes DC units like that, well I do, occasionally I take 1 thunder hammer in the unit and that is it and you know what, with that 'imaginary unit' in my army I have lost 2 games out of about 40 with them, I have never finished lower than 3rd in battle points at any tournament with this unit in my army, ever, so I'd say I'm in some position of strength to be commenting on this. If you are going to argue math please have decency to check it first. As for hitting nobs and all that yes against nobs your termies would be better however against incubi they wouldnt , or grey knights, or many other tough cc units, witches, oh and the DC will do better against deamon prince you mentioned as well so please do your math first for god sake. Out of the vacuum I seem to be constantly in, for the point cost of your TH/SS termies and your priest I could take another 2 dc with fists and again do better against those nobs and against tyrants not to mention the fact you have to get off unleashed rage against tyrants (synapse will be there) or you are really in the so the vlack of acuum works two ways. I guarantee you are speaking more in a vacuum than I am having played how many games with termies and/or DC in raiders? I have much experience with them and the math my friend is not on your side. At least argue something logical like DC arent that good off charge, or have rage.

 

Before you say blah blah battle record, made up, who cares, PM because I totally understand that anyone can make that up and that it can mean and may generally mean something. But if that is going to be your line of arguement to follow please just PM me and I will link you to sites that show battle results and I will send you the lists for them.

 

Sorry if that was too blunt, however this is getting tiresome. I have much experience with these units and can show you that in most situations that the math will favour the DC in this type of scenario. If you have a differing opinion that is not a problem, however do not support it with claims and math that does not correlate with your arguement.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn