Which CC beast to take?

[Black Memories]

First off you just called me several arrows short of a full quiver when you actually addressed the wrong person in your post entirely and consistently posting atrocious math and telling everyone you're right. This is a bit ironic since you're telling everyone that they aren't reading what is being said before they comment. As said before you also STILL aren't doing your math properly.

 

Taking up Black Orange's argument since you lumped me in with it. Your 9 death company members need 36 attacks on average to go down, and the terminators will need 33 with 3 lc, 2 th/ss. So you're marginally more effective at staying alive in that specific scenario as a terminator unit. Worth nothing that neither is likely to be wiped out in 1 round of combat if they get charged by the incubi, and they'll likely have a similar number of models left.

 

The daemon prince argument I think you're a bit lost on. Your naked DC would need 21 attacks ON THE CHARGE to drop the daemon prince on average. If you don't charge you're in a huge amount of trouble. The terminators not so much because of their protection. You'd only need 10 attacks on average from lightning clawed terminators (they get 12) on the charge on the same daemon prince, not to mention you get invulnerable saves and thunderhammer attacks after and whatever characters you have in the unit. I think this is another one of your statistical fallacies here. The Daemon prince is averaging 2.22 wounds against the death company and less than 1 wound in return on the assault terminators.

 

For comparitive purposes if the terminators did not charge, get hit rerolls, furious charge, etc. They would take 22 attacks from their lightning claws to take down the demon prince. The same number the death company would take on the charge. The terminators would be expected to win the combat after 2 rounds via thunderhammer involvement after being charged with no supporting characters and suffering 1 casualty. The 9 naked death company would need 148 attacks if charged by the daemon prince to kill him. They could be expected to not wound the daemon prince (.54 wounds per turn, dropping after the first turn) in the same two turns that the terminators killed him and they would expect 5 dead death company members.How's that for supporting my statements.

 

Without even calculating it, because I know the results of the daemon prince combat and he had an invulnerable save and no FnP, I know that the Tyrant combat is going to be even more lopsided in favor of the terminators due to the power weapons. I don't even know where to begin addressing the situation about you taking a pf and th in your death company and doing more damage than my marginally more expensive assault terminator unit, because it isn't true even against MEQ units. I just listed the math to prove it. A Tyrant w/ guard, etc is a significantly tougher unit for the DC to kill than it is for the assault terminators. There's so many configurations that I'm not even going to bother attempting to throw something out there, but like I said based on the previous numbers from the daemon prince combat I'm not sure why you're under the impression that the death company would do better.

 

If you run 9 naked death company and a chaplain and you've only lost 2 times then you play absolutely terrible competition. Your combat record is one thing, but I'm a tournament winner myself, I have a certificate that says so, and I've played with assault terminators/dc in my list, in EVERY list since last summer. That's more than 30 games or whatever number you popped off. There is 0 reason to take 9 death company and a chaplain in any game. That's worse than taking an assault squad with 2 meltas, a power fist and a chaplain. Yeah your close combat kills go down slightly, but your actual in-game effectiveness goes up, since we're not arguing in a vacuum.

 

You are definitely arguing in a vacuum, you're kidding yourself to think otherwise. The only time you stop arguing in a vacuum is when your math reveals you to not have a point and then you start listing garbage what if's and variables like not having grenades as we're sitting here discussing how effective these units would be coming out of a LRC. That's so totally irrelevant to this conversation that it isn't worth mentioning because it's a non-issue. Sorry you're really just jumping ship insisting it's our fault for not understanding. Frankly I think it's your fault.

 

I'd say lets flip the tables and let you prove mathematically to us that the death company are better, but I think you've demonstrated fairly clearly that you don't know how to do that. Stop saying everyone else needs to check your statistics. Your statistics are wrong, I just wrote an entire post previously on how probability actually works in these regards. Black orange did the exact same thing and you told us both to check our facts.

 

It's ok to lose an argument or have a different opinion on a discussion. But what you're trying to do is argue against facts where you're being proven wrong with correct math repeatedly and still insist that it's my fault for not reading what you're saying. I'm reading what you're saying, I'm just telling you you're wrong or that what you're saying is pointless. Frankly I'm tired of you telling me its me that doesn't know what I'm talking about when you can't calculate basic probabilities and still try and throw mathhammer out there, or talk about your amazing experience as if I've never played with either unit extensively myself. I happen to be talking out of experience also. I just also know how to calculate probability.

 

You aren't being blunt, you're being stubborn.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Incubi have power weapons. Nuff said.

 

Okay lets run the mathammer and assume worst case... DC are charged by Incubi that have acquired two pain tokens (FNP and Furious Charge). There are 8 Incubi and the Klaivex has demiklaives:

 

Incubi -> 24 attacks, 12 hit and 8 wound

Klaivex then takes out DC #9

 

I do love me some mathammer in the morning. <_<

 

G <_<

[teemoki]

@Black Orange & Black Memories: Will you boys please stop this back and forth banter? Please take it to PMs as it's not directly even related to what my setups were asked for. I appreciate trying to help and standing by your sides of Terminators vs DC but it seems like it's clogging up 1 and a half pages of my thread now. Most of which is nice to know info but not directly really what I wanted in this thread. Thanks but please take it to PMs please? :(;

 

On topic, I tried out my Terminator 2x THSS/ 3x LC + Librarian with Unleash Rage/Sanguine Sword + Priest Deathstar in a LR yesterday. They won vs 7 Nob Bikers with wound allocation shenanigans + 1 Biker Warboss. Only 1 THSS lived in the end. Everything else died. He went on to charge the next Nob Biker squad and killed 1 before he died himself.

 

I will test out Terminators for the next 5-10 games then I will try out DC.

 

One thing I have to say though from my game is I really like the Land Raider. I think it is more reliable than the Storm Raven even though I have had good games with the Storm Raven. However I can clearly see the mobility of the Storm Raven now...a LR without the chance to get Dozer Blades or a Siege Shield is really disheartening ;) Scary to get immobilized...Love the loadout and firepower a LR:C can put out though! Wow!

 

As good as a gunship a SR is after I unload all its BS missiles its just a Las and MM. Still awesome but the LR is a TL AsC, MM, and 12 Bolter shots. Wow I took out A LOT with that puppy! :P

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Come on chill out there. It's not a big deal really. :P

 

G

[syypher]

@Black Orange & Black Memories: Will you boys please stop this back and forth banter? Please take it to PMs as it's not directly even related to what my setups were asked for. I appreciate trying to help and standing by your sides of Terminators vs DC but it seems like it's clogging up 1 and a half pages of my thread now. Most of which is nice to know info but not directly really what I wanted in this thread. Thanks but please take it to PMs please? :);

 

On topic, I tried out my Terminator 2x THSS/ 3x LC + Librarian with Unleash Rage/Sanguine Sword + Priest Deathstar in a LR yesterday. They won vs 7 Nob Bikers with wound allocation shenanigans + 1 Biker Warboss. Only 1 THSS lived in the end. Everything else died. He went on to charge the next Nob Biker squad and killed 1 before he died himself.

 

I will test out Terminators for the next 5-10 games then I will try out DC.

 

One thing I have to say though from my game is I really like the Land Raider. I think it is more reliable than the Storm Raven even though I have had good games with the Storm Raven. However I can clearly see the mobility of the Storm Raven now...a LR without the chance to get Dozer Blades or a Siege Shield is really disheartening :( Scary to get immobilized...Love the loadout and firepower a LR:C can put out though! Wow!

 

As good as a gunship a SR is after I unload all its BS missiles its just a Las and MM. Still awesome but the LR is a TL AsC, MM, and 12 Bolter shots. Wow I took out A LOT with that puppy! :D

 

@Teemoki: Unlike the way you tested I had tried out the Land Raider first. The Redeemer was very disappointing. Its awesome sponsons are really hard to hit a single unit with. Especially if your opponent knows what they are...Would be awesome if it had like...a double POTMS ability or something. Crusader is definitely the way to go and I'm glad you had a good experience with it. It's firepower is just amazing. Having the capability to move 6" and fire the TL AsC and Hurricane Bolters since they are defensive weapons, then PoTMS the MM is sick!

 

Like you though I found it very sad that you cannot get dozer blades. I have often rolled 1 on my Predators going through terrain and doing that on a LR with 250+ points of cargo is VERY sad...Hopefully your LR was moving in a direction that it could at least have a good facing and fire and things still...This is where the Storm Raven gets my vote for mobility. Being able to fly over everything and maneuver without as much hinderance is great! However its AV12 still irks me. The LR has greater survivability from long range anti-AV weaponry than the SR so even though the SR has better mobility it has a less chance at surviving. Check out my math hammer with the LR vs SR thread.

 

As far as the loadouts you have listed I prefer the Terminators + Priest. Instead of a Chaplain I would get a Librarian with Unleashed Rage + Sanguine Sword + Epistolary.

[Isryion]

As good as a gunship a SR is after I unload all its BS missiles its just a Las and MM. Still awesome but the LR is a TL AsC, MM, and 12 Bolter shots. Wow I took out A LOT with that puppy! :sick:

 

A big reason I like the AsC on the stormraven. I also have had very little trouble blowing up Land Raiders, while SR can prove more difficult (due to 4+ Cover Save and resistance to melta) .12 Bolter shots are only in very close range, too, correct? Either way, I think they both work very well, but for me, the stormraven is the better buy.

[SamaNagol]

The StormRaven can have a superior armament to a Land Raider Crusader for less points. It's Multi Melta is Twin Linked.

[Crynn]

First off you just called me several arrows short of a full quiver when you actually addressed the wrong person in your post entirely and consistently posting atrocious math and telling everyone you're right. This is a bit ironic since you're telling everyone that they aren't reading what is being said before they comment. As said before you also STILL aren't doing your math properly.

 

I appologise if I quoted the wrong person

 

Your 9 death company members need 36 attacks on average to go down, and the terminators will need 33 with 3 lc, 2 th/ss. So you're marginally more effective at staying alive in that specific scenario as a terminator unit. Worth nothing that neither is likely to be wiped out in 1 round of combat if they get charged by the incubi, and they'll likely have a similar number of models left.

 

So I was correct, if the models weild power weapons it is even mroe in my favour, thank you for prooving my point.

 

so they will have similar amounts of models left if charged by incubi. Not only was I arguing that for exactly 2 SS and 3 LC termies it would be even but thank you again for agreeing with me, you also need to stick with one termie setup through out your arguements.

 

The daemon prince argument I think you're a bit lost on. Your naked DC would need 21 attacks ON THE CHARGE to drop the daemon prince on average. If you don't charge you're in a huge amount of trouble. The terminators not so much because of their protection. You'd only need 10 attacks on average from lightning claws terminators (they get 12) on the charge on the same daemon prince, not to mention you get invulnerable saves and thunderhammer attacks after and whatever characters you have in the unit. I think this is another one of your statistical fallacies here. The Daemon prince is averaging 2.22 wounds against the death company and less than 1 wound in return on the assault terminators.

 

 

Its lucky those DC mentioned have 36 attacks on the charge so drop it easier than you LCs do and by a bigger margin. By the way we are now presuming it is a deamon prince with ironhide or a 3+ save? thanks for adding wargear that wasn't included. Again I am correct even if it does have ironhide. If the DC don't charge I have already agreed with you, my whole arguement is a unit charging out of a raider, so if you aren't talking about that you aren't arguing against me anyway. If you want to give the dc even two power weapons to even the poins these odds change not to mention you ahve used a priest in your calculations so if you are talking this amount of points you could give 5 dc PW's and then they would do more dmg again, wow you are just so wrong. the reason i chose 5 LC termies and 9 dc is they both fit inside a raider and are roughly the same cost, DC a little cheaper. When you start adding priests and SS, the points skew and for that i can put in pw TH, fists and the odds will still favour the dc then, so stick to a level of points lile I try to because matching units that are 80 points different doesn't really show much. I personally run my dc without and weapons except sometime a TH because its cheap. I know i could make them mroe effective how I want to invest those points somewhere else. For arguements the points are similar, for all of yours they are not.

 

As for 10 LC attacks on a deamon prince killing it, how do you figure that? 10 attacks equals 7.5 hits, which is 4.125 wounds which is 2.7225 wounds do the deamon prince after saves, you haven't killed it by a reasonable margin mate cause they ahve 4 wounds.

If i give you a priest you get 3.71 wounds so you may kill it unless it is one of those deamons with a 4+ invuln

 

Lets see what the dc do. 9x4 =36 attacks so they hit on 4+ with re-rolls which is 27 hits they wound on 4s with rerolls which equals 20.25 wounds and after its save they do 6.75 wounds! Even if I added your extra two LC attacks and the 6 TH attacks you would have in your 5 man squad which clearly has to be 3 LCs and 2 THsyou only equal the dcs wound on the prine except the dc loose less points worth of guys unless you take those wounds on the TH/SS in which case they cant attack and you do less wounds in total. So the dc versus even your ironhide prince are far better, and seeing you needed a priest they were 80 points cheaper! yeah thats about about 30% cheaper. Seriously check your math, because its wrong

 

For comparitive purposes if the terminators did not charge, get hit rerolls, furious charge, etc. They would take 22 attacks from their lightning claws to take down the demon prince. The same number the death company would take on the charge. The terminators would be expected to win the combat after 2 rounds via thunderhammer involvement after being charged with no supporting characters and suffering 1 casualty. The 9 naked death company would need 148 attacks if charged by the daemon prince to kill him. They could be expected to not wound the daemon prince (.54 wounds per turn, dropping after the first turn) in the same two turns that the terminators killed him and they would expect 5 dead death company members.How's that for supporting my statements.

 

You are aguing being charged not charging which I specifically avoided and said was in the termies favour, so again you are supporting me, I cannot fathem hom idiotic you are bing, you don't read you just argue , you have no agree with me or proven correct twice, haha.

 

Without even calculating it, because I know the results of the daemon prince combat and he had an invulnerable save and no FnP, I know that the Tyrant combat is going to be even more lopsided in favor of the terminators due to the power weapons. I don't even know where to begin addressing the situation about you taking a pf and th in your death company and doing more damage than my marginally more expensive assault terminator unit, because it isn't true even against MEQ units. I just listed the math to prove it. A Tyrant w/ guard, etc is a significantly tougher unit for the DC to kill than it is for the assault terminators. There's so many configurations that I'm not even going to bother attempting to throw something out there, but like I said based on the previous numbers from the daemon prince combat I'm not sure why you're under the impression that the death company would do better.

 

 

 

And again I agreed however if you put the points you would need to make your thunder hammer termies do well against those tyrant ie a priest (not to mention now you ahve 3 kps assaulting that unit) then put those points into dc fists the dc would do more again. I did say the dc with just straight combat weapons would not be as good however for every unit the termies will kill better on the charge their will be two the dc are better against.

 

 

If you run 9 naked death company and a chaplain and you've only lost 2 times then you play absolutely terrible competition. Your combat record is one thing, but I'm a tournament winner myself, I have a certificate that says so, and I've played with assault terminators/dc in my list, in EVERY list since last summer. That's more than 30 games or whatever number you popped off. There is 0 reason to take 9 death company and a chaplain in any game. That's worse than taking an assault squad with 2 meltas, a power fist and a chaplain. Yeah your close combat kills go down slightly, but your actual in-game effectiveness goes up, since we're not arguing in a vacuum.

 

Really you are a tournament winner? Oh sir do I bow now? Yes everyone in my nation are idiots that is definately the solution. Well mate I happen to be a tourny winner myself (no need to bow though) and I can send you the last year of tourny records and threads to prove my results, can you? I have never finished lower in battle than third, have you? Irrelivant of whos won what I can see by your flawed math that you are rather incapable of making mathamatically based decisions so really it is you who must be playing idiots.

 

You are definitely arguing in a vacuum, you're kidding yourself to think otherwise. The only time you stop arguing in a vacuum is when your math reveals you to not have a point and then you start listing garbage what if's and variables like not having grenades as we're sitting here discussing how effective these units would be coming out of a LRC. That's so totally irrelevant to this conversation that it isn't worth mentioning because it's a non-issue. Sorry you're really just jumping ship insisting it's our fault for not understanding. Frankly I think it's your fault.

 

It stemmed from the point where someone says both need to be transported now the only things they can be transported in are raiders and stormravens although I left storm ravens out because I dont like them that much as assault transports, personal preference. I have never said DC are better than termies, my whole arguement stemmed from if your going to take a raider you should have a good chance of charging a unit in which case.....

Yes this is a vacuum, the vacuum of 'using a land raider' I have never argued anything else

 

 

I'd say lets flip the tables and let you prove mathematically to us that the death company are better, but I think you've demonstrated fairly clearly that you don't know how to do that. Stop saying everyone else needs to check your statistics. Your statistics are wrong, I just wrote an entire post previously on how probability actually works in these regards. Black orange did the exact same thing and you told us both to check our facts.

 

No I said you need to check the words that form the sentences mate. Again I never said that DC were better than termies just that when charging out of a raider they will do more damage to most targets and generally be harder to kill which even using your math in some cases has proven correct. the only time You are getting close is by adding in TH/SS termies and then presuming they live to attack, there is a good chance of this but you ahve to factor their death into the statisitcs which you have not.

 

 

It's ok to lose an argument or have a different opinion on a discussion. But what you're trying to do is argue against facts where you're being proven wrong with correct math repeatedly and still insist that it's my fault for not reading what you're saying. I'm reading what you're saying, I'm just telling you you're wrong or that what you're saying is pointless. Frankly I'm tired of you telling me its me that doesn't know what I'm talking about when you can't calculate basic probabilities and still try and throw mathhammer out there, or talk about your amazing experience as if I've never played with either unit extensively myself. I happen to be talking out of experience also. I just also know how to calculate probability.

 

well as I have shown before you read incorrectly so either english isn't your first language or you really are just well...... My basic probablility has all been correct and I ahve shown yours not to be. I have a math major, I head a research department where half of what I do is number statistics and percentages, I can tell you now my numbers are spot on, yours are off and in some cases you ahve actually restated what i said and proven me right in your own words. Ie 3 LC and 2 SS termies makes them almost as tough, I do rememeber saying that exact same thing.

 

 

So lets make this really simple for you.

 

CHARGING out of a land raider

5 TERMIES no more, generally LC equipped with unleashed rage, you can put in TH SS however the damage drops generally, pick one unit and stick with it.

DC arent better than termies, it is situationally specific, which is what I have said all along.

ts easiest to work out dmg done to marine specific equivillants as they are the most common, if you go into special units then it works both ways, DC will be better against some the termies will be better against some, so lets just stick to the norm or the debate could jsut have a million different posts about unit vs unit comparrisons.

 

 

 

You aren't being blunt, you're being stubborn.

 

I'll tell you what, you keep posting math that supports my arguement I will wont be blunt, I wont even respond at all as you will just argue my point for me.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

Just to put forward this again, this is proof that you have no idea what you are talking about because this is broof that the DC kill that deamon prince easier than your termies for 80 less points. Please your arguements are so far off, you state the DC would need 21 attacks to kill a deamon prince, when they have 36 not including the chaplain, So again you are just agreeing with me. I really cant be bothered arguing with you anymore because you just agree with me with your numbers and then say I'm wrong, what a joke.

 

As for 10 LC attacks on a deamon prince killing it, how do you figure that? 10 attacks equals 7.5 hits, which is 4.125 wounds which is 2.7225 wounds do the deamon prince after saves, you haven't killed it by a reasonable margin mate cause they ahve 4 wounds.

If i give you a priest you get 3.71 wounds so you may kill it unless it is one of those deamons with a 4+ invuln

 

Lets see what the dc do. 9x4 =36 attacks so they hit on 4+ with re-rolls which is 27 hits they wound on 4s with rerolls which equals 20.25 wounds and after its save they do 6.75 wounds! Even if I added your extra two LC attacks and the 6 TH attacks you would have in your 5 man squad which clearly has to be 3 LCs and 2 THsyou only equal the dcs wound on the prine except the dc loose less points worth of guys unless you take those wounds on the TH/SS in which case they cant attack and you do less wounds in total. So the dc versus even your ironhide prince are far better, and seeing you needed a priest they were 80 points cheaper! yeah thats about about 30% cheaper. Seriously check your math, because its wrong

[syypher]

Seriously? Take it to PM's man. She's already kindly asked to stop that page and a half long debate you guys keep arguing about. Who cares whos right or wrong just be the bigger person and stop already...

 

@SamaNagol: Ya the MM is TL. With the way Teemoki is running it though it is MM/ Las/ BS missiles. After the BS missiles are gone the LR will have superior firepower, don't you think? I guess it's kind of a toss up.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The real beauty of the twin linked melta on the Stormraven is you can move flat-out and still fire it thanks to PotMS... so the effective range is pretty much across the table. It can be a game winning mechanic for sure ! ^_^

 

G :P

[SevenExxes]

At a glance:

 

Honour Guard - Free Sanguinary Priest that can't be sniped, cheap jump packs, Chapter Banner, Blood Champion

- Can't have extra models, can't upgrade Novitiate (Priest), better in a support role

 

Death Company - Coolest unit, (IMO ^_^ )Psycho, don't need a Priest, chaplain's Liturgies of Blood re-rolls to hit /and/ to wound on assault, highest weapon skill (except for the Blood Champion)

- Can be lead about the table thanks to Rage and a smart opponent, can become expensive, needs chaplain for maximum performance

 

Assault Terminators - Good balance of defence/offence, storm shields for better defence

- Take up two transport slots per model, needs priest and/or chaplain

[Morticon]

Some people are getting dangerously close to receiving warnings <_<

Keep it civil gents.

 

After reading and re-reading this thread it seems like both the parties involved were talking AT each other and not with each other, both people missing various points the other one was making.

 

Not cool, gents. Little less ego little more real discussion.

 

 

And PS: Black Mem - re-read the "Rage" universal special rule.

[Black Memories]

I don't have a rulebook with me right now, but after reading a bit I believe they must always move towards the enemy if they move? AKA they must run and consolidate towards an enemy if they make those moves. Makes more sense than how most of us here had interrupted the rule actually. If that's involved that's probably an easy miss for me, I can't remember the last time my death company consolidated more than 2 inches, and I almost never run them except for straight at an enemy anyways (for example if the SR is blown up).

 

I suppose my question with Rage, and the way its been disputed here is that I'd argue that if I can move a full 6 inches and get my guys into combat without crossing difficult or dangerous terrain, I can. Even though it isn't the most direct path. I saw another dispute about how "direct" you have to move towards an enemy. Does anyone have any insight on to how fair or legal it is to actually move around the terrain if you have the distance to do so instead?