Isstvan V

[SanguineSon]

Let's imagine for a minute that just prior to the events on Isstvan V, all the legions still believed to be loyal were not otherwise engaged. For the purpose of this let's pretend Russ captured Magnus and the Sons without event and brought them back to Terra so that both those legions were free as well. If you were the Emperor who would you send to Isstvan V and why. Use the same three legion vanguard and four legion support deployment we saw in the actual battle. Also keep in mind the Night lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Thousand Sons aren't known to be traitor yet so try to stay unbiased. Also if you send the Fists who's gonna guard Terra for you?

 

I'll start things off by saying I'd send the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Iron Hands in first. BAs and SPs for their assault abilities and IHs for their general toughness and need for revenge. Second wave would be Dark Angles and Ultramarines for numbers and tactical know-how, and Iron Warriors to secure the dropsite and seige warfare abilites. Also I'd send the Thousand Sons for their powerful pskyer abilities and also as kind of a good will thing to let them know I still trusted them.

 

Okay your turn have fun!

[Olis]

So... everyone making the landings is supposedly loyal for the purpose of this exercise - as in, what would you do different given the choice but no genre savvy? Well if that's the case then I'd stick the White Scars, the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves to the fore and have the Word Bearers, Ultramarines, Iron Warriors and Raven Guard as back-up. The Word Bearers and the Ultramarines are there purely for numbers, the Iron Warriors are there for their traditional purpose (fortifying the landing zones) and the Raven Guard are there for the purpose of being a back-up quick-moving offensive force. The vanguard have been picked for their close-in offensive capabilities and dynamic mobility (specifically the WS). The Imperial Fists can stay at home.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Get Curze back on side by going "I know we've had our disagreements, but now we need some pure, unrestrained overkill. You were right, your tactics do have a place, and that place is here. You control the field."

Send in the Wolves alongside them, and bring in the Ultramarines to back them up. White Scars/Blood Angels for strategic reserves to be deployed as needed.

[Paradill]

So we're facing the Sons of Horus, a hardcore, no nonsense bunch of merciless killers with a tactical genius at their head and speartipped by the hardest Astartes of the crusade (arguably), The Emperors Children with their strive for perfection attitude producing some of the finest swordsmen, marksmen and pretty boys in the Imperium, The Death Guard, who even before the whole nurgle corruption thing are really hard to put down and keep down and Angron "just needs a hug" the Psychopathic killer and his legion of.. well Psychopathic killers.

 

Ok, So we would have; Blood Angels, White Scars and Space Wolves in the first wave, supported by the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Iron Hands and Dark Angels.

 

Imperial Fists would be at home, the Ultramarines would be on containment throughout the system for when the traitors inevitably went to flee. The Raven Guard and Alpha Legion would be part of the third wave, sent in to sow dischord and strike from the shadows once the first waves were engaged, the Salamanders would be acting as a plug, wherever the enemy looked like they were going to make a break through, the salamanders would burn them back.

 

The Night Lords could stand at the back with their arms folded, just staring. Conrad is creepy enough when he is acting like a mad man, if he was just staring the traitor primarchs would definitely soil themselves.

 

Over all, minute to minute command would be with Sanguinius. His brothers almost universally respect him and he is the most level-headed apart from Perturabo, who is a little too unfeeling for my likes.

 

Paradill

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

The Night Lords could stand at the back with their arms folded, just staring. Conrad is creepy enough when he is acting like a mad man, if he was just staring the traitor primarchs would definitely soil themselves.

 

This just made my day. I wonder if I have room in my sig.

[Billuriye]

Over all, minute to minute command would be with Sanguinius. His brothers almost universally respect him and he is the most level-headed apart from Perturabo, who is a little too unfeeling for my likes.

 

Perturabo is level headed ? That guy got vitriolic and held undying petty grudge over a simple answer. Not to mention he turned traitor due to fear of reprisal from Emperor.

[spu00sed]

I would nuke them from orbit. It is the only way to be sure.

 

Once I was done nuking (and melta torpedoing, vortex torpedoing, plasma torpedoing), I would blockade the planet and try to find out why they don’t have a fleet in orbit.

 

Legion-wise, I would take the Angel as supreme commander and his host. Alongside them would be the Raven guard and Night lords, who would both be tasked with planetside interference.

 

I would also take the Iron warriors along to help crack any sieges.

 

My Final three legions would be Word bearers, for devoted faith to doing what I wanted (If I was the Emperor I would never chastise anyone for calling me a god, I don’t now and never will). The Wolves of Fenris, to do anything dirty and finally the White scars, they will help in the blockade, space battle and ground invasion.

 

Of course this is all moot, since as the Emperor I would never have set the whole heresy in motion by smacking Lorgar for sending me a hand-made fathers’ day card saying

 

“Daddy

you are a God

I love you

Lorgar

X”

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Lorgar, not Logan. Grimnar wasn't alive yet. :)

[spu00sed]

Lorgar, not Logan. Grimnar wasn't alive yet. ;)

 

Fixed.

 

I actually spent a few minutes before posting wondering if I got the name right. For some reason I decided not to use the computer infront of me to check. :)

[SanguineSon]

If I was the Emperor, I'd have some issues sending the Word Bearers myself. Seeing as they pretty much disregarded Imperial Truth, one of the biggest aims in The Great Crusade, I'm not sure how much faith I'd have in them. Sons are a different story. Yes they disobeyed me but at least they weren't undermining one of my most important beliefs/teachings.

[SanguineSon]

So... everyone making the landings is supposedly loyal for the purpose of this exercise

 

I only meant that as far as you know, everyone is loyal. Not that they all are.

[Olis]

So... everyone making the landings is supposedly loyal for the purpose of this exercise

 

I only meant that as far as you know, everyone is loyal. Not that they all are.

 

Which is what I meant by:

 

as in, what would you do different given the choice but no genre savvy?

[Paradill]

Over all, minute to minute command would be with Sanguinius. His brothers almost universally respect him and he is the most level-headed apart from Perturabo, who is a little too unfeeling for my likes.

 

Perturabo is level headed ? That guy got vitriolic and held undying petty grudge over a simple answer. Not to mention he turned traitor due to fear of reprisal from Emperor.

 

 

Perturabo's reaction to Dorn was understandable, put yourself in his shoes; you uncomplainingly fight the most thankless wars, your legion gets slowly split up as you leave your men on garrison duty. You create grand strategies and siege-works that are nothing short of genius, ending wars that would otherwise have continued for decades. One of the first to be found, you have brought more worlds into compliance than most of your brothers and still, the Emperor choses Dorn as his personal guardian, Dorn to build defences on Terra itself. You then hear that your sneering, 'perfect' brother has specifically stated that you are inferior to him. I know where I would tell my brother to go if he did that.

 

He turned to chaos because, quite frankly, the Emperor is more of an uncaring douche than he was and a bit of mass murder beats digging trenches for eternity hands down.

 

Paradill

[Epistolary Exander]

I would send in the Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons & Ultramarines in the first wave, The Alpha Legion would have infiltrated the traitor camp before the first wave, being ready to rise up & cause mayhem when the first pods hit the Urghall Plateu. The Ultramarines would be there to provide the wight of numbers of 2 to 3 legions. While the Thousand Sons would be there to show Horus & the traitors that the Emperor's given powers are superior to the gifts of the Warp. I would have the first wave to drop pod directly onto the traitor positions in an effort to dig them out before they could establish a battle line. I would then have the Ultramarines form the main battle line pockets with the Thousand Sons fellowships being dispersed amongst the Ultramarines to give extra support to them. This would be an utterly chaotic battle, with no clear front line.

 

With the second wave I would have the Raven Guard, White Scars, Space Wolves & Blood Angels. All 4 legions would be employed in another drop pod assault on the traiter positions, with the simple orders to engage & destroy any traitor legion position encountered & then redeploy to destroy the next traitor position to destroy & so forth.

 

I would have command of the first wave given to Rouboute Guilliman, but Alpharius & his legion would be allowed to operate as they see fit due to their infiltration of the chaos camp. Sanguinius would have control of the second wave, aswel as overall command of the compliance mission. The overall appoach would be to literally drown the 4 traitor legions with loyal astartes at close quarters.

[Epistolary Exander]

Over all, minute to minute command would be with Sanguinius. His brothers almost universally respect him and he is the most level-headed apart from Perturabo, who is a little too unfeeling for my likes.

 

Perturabo is level headed ? That guy got vitriolic and held undying petty grudge over a simple answer. Not to mention he turned traitor due to fear of reprisal from Emperor.

 

 

Perturabo's reaction to Dorn was understandable, put yourself in his shoes; you uncomplainingly fight the most thankless wars, your legion gets slowly split up as you leave your men on garrison duty. You create grand strategies and siege-works that are nothing short of genius, ending wars that would otherwise have continued for decades. One of the first to be found, you have brought more worlds into compliance than most of your brothers and still, the Emperor choses Dorn as his personal guardian, Dorn to build defences on Terra itself. You then hear that your sneering, 'perfect' brother has specifically stated that you are inferior to him. I know where I would tell my brother to go if he did that.

 

He turned to chaos because, quite frankly, the Emperor is more of an uncaring douche than he was and a bit of mass murder beats digging trenches for eternity hands down.

 

Paradill

 

I wouldnt quite say that, the actual reason for Perturabo's defection to chaos could actually be quite different, The HH series has not specifically revealed why Perturabo turned to Chaos. The First Heretic says that Word Bearers started warrior lodges in the Iron Warriors & believe with the intention to turn the Iron Warriors to chaos. It is implied that Perturabo was closer to Horus, than he was to the Emperor. It was Horus who told Perturabo about the rebellion on Olympia, aswel as giving Perturabo the hammer Forgebreaker. It is quite concievable that the warrior lodges made Perturabo more open Horus advances & that is why he turned to chaos. While the Olympia uprisings could have just been an excuse Horus & Perturabo used to cleanse the Iron Warriors of loyalist marines, in a similiar manor as Istvaan was meant to purge the Sons of Horus , etc of their loyalist marines.

 

Remember there are atleast 2 sides to all the disputes in t he heresy & you need to take into account all the information before simply saying it was insult that made Perturabo turn. There is a good chance we will never specifically know why all the traitor primarchs turned,

[torgaddon666]

Anythought about sending Imperial guard? Hello their are millions of them! Send a couple of legions of Krieg because they're the most stubborn buggers I know of aside from Cadians. Infact Send Cadians and Krieg as a Diversion. Get Kurze on our side, and get him with Magnus and Leman to wait in orbit and be ready to drop in and start unloading hell. Put WS, RG in reserve with BA to do hit and run slaughter and Sallies and Iron Hands as standard.

 

as for commanding I'll have Sanguinius in command I mean, foresight! Out manouver Horus at every turn and also try and get Peturabo and Lorgar back on our side.

[Olis]

Anythought about sending Imperial guard? Hello their are millions of them! Send a couple of legions of Krieg because they're the most stubborn buggers I know of aside from Cadians. Infact Send Cadians and Krieg as a Diversion.

 

Wait, what? Imperial Army troops in an Astartes fight? A fight designed by the tactical genius of his day to slaughter Astartes? They wouldn't last five minutes, even if Cadia and Krieg had actually existed as recruiting bases back in 30k. :P

[torgaddon666]

But still, the fact they'll get slaughtered isn't the point brother. I'd rather sacrifice a couple of millions of guardsmen to try and thin out the traitors rather than lose all my loyalist astartes.

 

I've probably got my dates wrong. Scratch that DEFINATELY. Point is still the same, send in the imperial army. To quote Russ "Might as well arm the bastards and maybe they'll have a good use for them."

[Olis]

Who's to say you would lose all your Astartes? It depends upon which legions you deploy.

 

And a couple of million dead is Dravere-levels of harsh. The propaganda the traitors would garner from slaughtering that many Army soldiers would be quite a punch to the gut for the Imperium at large. Granted the canon Massacre wasn't exactly a coup for the Imperium propaganda-wise but still it was about super-human warriors facing super-human warriors - they were designed for war this brutal. The Imperial Army, on the other hand, is full of regular schmucks that the people at home can relate to. A monumental slaughter would sow panic and discord far before Horus got close to the core worlds.

[torgaddon666]

Point taken. Couldn't it be said that when the civillians of IstvannIII got slaughtered couldn't have the panic started by them already? If using the imperial army super heavies, could slow them down would you? Also would you send custodies to aid the loyallists?

[Olis]

Point taken. Couldn't it be said that when the civillians of IstvannIII got slaughtered couldn't have the panic started by them already?

 

It's possible when news of Istvaan III reached the ears of the Imperium that some of the civilian populace may have panicked. But I would argue the overwhelming majority didn't firstly because of a 'there-but-for-grace-of-god-go-I' reaction people exhibit when disasters happen, thus disgust and shock would be the prevalent emotions, and secondly they are not as relatable as an Imperial Army grunt would be because the Istvaanians weren't sent there - the events that unfolded befell them. Also, I think Istvaan III was 'rebelling' at the time, was it not?

 

If using the imperial army super heavies, could slow them down would you? Also would you send custodies to aid the loyallists?

 

Granted armoured units would probably fair reasonably well against Astartes but the traitor legions had their own armoured units too. I don't see Imperial Army forces being a viable alternative force on Istvaan V.

 

Custodes were partially involved in the incident already due to secondment to the Word Bearers. Would I send more? No. Custodes weren't 'mass produced' like Astartes were. They'd be better off performing their traditional duties, imho.

[torgaddon666]

I don't think IstvaanIII was rebelling. I personally believe that Horus set it up so he could destroy all the loyalists in the traitor legions.

[Gree]

And a couple of million dead is Dravere-levels of harsh. The propaganda the traitors would garner from slaughtering that many Army soldiers would be quite a punch to the gut for the Imperium at large.

 

Just a million dead? Don't make me laugh. That's a tiny drop in the bucket for the Imperium. A single small hive world alone can churn out many times that number. A million dead army troopers will be a minor statistic and nothing more. Countless billlions of Army troopers die across the entire galaxy in the Great Crusade. A million men is nothing to the Imperium.

[SanguineSon]

Point taken. Couldn't it be said that when the civillians of IstvannIII got slaughtered couldn't have the panic started by them already? If using the imperial army super heavies, could slow them down would you? Also would you send custodies to aid the loyallists?

 

Super heavy tanks seem like a good idea but I wager you'd need a lot of them. Remember that traitors had Dies Irae on their side. Also sending custodes seems a little risky since you can't just churn them out like marines. I like to think they are like super marines but in truth the fluff regarding their capabilities is sparse and conflicting. I'd like to know more about them before I throw them in the meat grinder.

[Olis]

And a couple of million dead is Dravere-levels of harsh. The propaganda the traitors would garner from slaughtering that many Army soldiers would be quite a punch to the gut for the Imperium at large.

 

Just a million dead? Don't make me laugh. That's a tiny drop in the bucket for the Imperium. A single small hive world alone can churn out many times that number. A million dead army troopers will be a minor statistic and nothing more. Countless billlions of Army troopers die across the entire galaxy in the Great Crusade. A million men is nothing to the Imperium.

 

I think you're making the mistake of viewing that situation from a 40k perspective and not a 30k perspective. Granted they wouldn't be too terribly different but I am under the impression that the 40k perspective wouldn't even blink at at a seven figure casualty list whereas a 30k mentality hasn't developed that sort of 'reasoning' yet, what with logic, science and reasoning still being the watch words of the day (words that might get you strung up in 40k depending on who you're talking to). At this moment in time my whole arguement has been based upon the 30k perspective as I understand it.