Summoned Daemons - Greater vs Lesser

[neonmeat]

I've never actually used summoned daemons in my CSM army but feel I'm getting a bit too predictable for my regular opponents and want to change things up a bit with some different units.

 

The Greater Daemon seems pretty cool for 100pts, as powerful as a daemon prince with a 4++ except no option for warptime and I have to lose a champion to get him. Then the Lesser daemons really don't seem to have much going for them except they can assault from deepstrike but they seem like despite this they prob wouldn't kill much.

 

So please give me your thoughts, do u use these? Any tactics you think work well with these units? Which is better the Greater or the Lesser? Or are they just not worth it?

[Mr. Sandbot]

I use lesser daemons as a buffer between my Thousand Sons and assault. Pair that with a CSM squad or a raptor squad (most of the time a CSM squad with a rhino in support range of my sons) and you have a pretty good deterrent/response to an assault.

 

I've always hated the new greater daemons. No wings, no upgrades, no control of when he comes in and he kills a champion my squad could use. All for one additional point of toughness, one more attack, I4, and a better invuln save. I've never understood why anyone would ever bother even using him. Even for fun, he never really struck me as being a blast to use just because my opponents tend to find and hammer away at the naked champion squad so then when the daemon is ready he has to pop someone actually useful to me, only to get sent back to the warp as he slowly foot slogs to where he needs to be.

 

In all honesty, if you feel the urge to get a greater daemon, just use a daemon prince + Wings and deep strike him. Its practically the same cost (130 vs 130) and by far more effective since you don't lose a champion in the process (more fists) and he has far more mobility.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I've always hated the new greater daemons. No wings, no upgrades, no control of when he comes in and he kills a champion my squad could use. All for one additional point of toughness, one more attack, I4, and a better invuln save.

 

Are you sure you're reading the right statline for a Greater Daemon? Try two additional points of T, three more Attacks, two more points of S, MC rules, and three more Wounds.

[chillin]

I use lesser daemons once in a while. If you use them well they can be useful. They are not a uber unit but they force you opponent to change up his plan to deal with them. As for not killing much, they hit with 30 attacks the turn they DS in, that's more then enough to mess up a dev squad or something like that, even more painful agaimst stuff w/ less armor. When they drop in on an ongoing combat they can definately mean the end of your opponents unit. They are troops so can claim objectives, and can drop outta sky to contest your opponent's, and they are fearless, so he can't drive them off, he has to kill them all. Like I say, with a bit of luck with the reserves dice they can be quite useful.

As for GD, I don't use them. Kills a champ, if he pops up too soon he has to lumber across board giving your opponent plenty of time to shoot him, he can only be where you already have a champ whild LD's can come in where ever u need them, if he pops out of a PF champ he cost 140 pts that's more then a 10 man pack of daemons, if you have a naked champ spec for him that means he can only come out 1 place on the table...No, there are reasons almost no one uses GD's

 

Another thing you could do to mix things up is what I'm trying lately; termi squads (larger then termicide, about 6 man) and LD's, to come down in opponents back field and mess him up and keep him guessing. I've had mixed results, alot depends on them coming down same turn or at least w/in 1 turn of each other. It's not competitive (as in tourney) but is a way to change things up and keep your opponent on his toes in a friendly game. Successful in that it forces you opponent to redirect his forces (often more then is needed) more then them (daemons and terni's) killing a bunce of his stuff themselves.

[neonmeat]

Cool thanks for all the tips everyone. I've got bout 260 pts left in a 1500 list and I was thinking of dividing it between one greater daemon and a squad of lesser daemons. It seems the consensus is that the greater daemon is not really worth the points so I think I'll either take two squads of lesser daemons or try taking another daemon prince and one squad.

[the jeske]

how is that possible to have 260pts left in a 1500 army ? what does your build look right now .

[neonmeat]

Maybe I didn't explain it right I've got 260pts left to add to make it a 1500pt list.

 

You can see what I am working with here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=229240

 

Essentially I am getting rid of my termis and was trying to find something else to fill the gap that makes of around 260pts.

 

Let me know what you think.

[chillin]

Looked at you list. You need a 2nd DP and rinos more then anything else.

What Jeske ment by it's not possible to have 260 pts left over in a 1500 pt chaos list is that a effective 1500 pt chaos list is 2 DP's, 3 squads of troops and 2X2 oblits, that pretty much takes u right up to 1500, leaving no left over pts. (sad we are so cookie cutter but true).

[Mr. Sandbot]

I've always hated the new greater daemons. No wings, no upgrades, no control of when he comes in and he kills a champion my squad could use. All for one additional point of toughness, one more attack, I4, and a better invuln save.

 

Are you sure you're reading the right statline for a Greater Daemon? Try two additional points of T, three more Attacks, two more points of S, MC rules, and three more Wounds.

 

I was comparing the Summoned Greater Daemon to a Daemon Prince. Sorry if it didn't come out very clear.

[BlkTom]

These are not demons, these are generic trash that should only be allowed as non-aligned warp entities and fodder to real demons that are created by a true chaos god.

 

In other words, keep this trash as IoCG summoning things and make them weaker to real demons. Make the real demons cost a little more, but be equal to the stuff in the Demon Codex and only summonable by the appropriate Icon. Yeah, I said it... link the demons to the actual Icons used to summon them. If that were the case, giving up a champ and paying 185pts for a /real/ Keeper of Secrets would be acceptable. Paying 14pts a model for a real Daemonettes (with Gaze option, no icon or instrument) would be acceptable. Heck, I would be willing to pay the same cost in the Demon Codex (without the sacrifice) and follow the summon rules (he doesn't start on the board) for a Greater Demon. That would at least make it a viable option. I will even go so far as to say make it a /real/ HQ option then if your not scarificing anything for it.

 

Until then, there is no option unless it is a fluff option. I am ashamed to use those stats for my Keeper of Secrets otherwise.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I've heard that using a small squad of Lesser Daemons to deepstrike on an objective during the last turn is a viable tactic, though I have not tested this out for myself, I intend to at some point.

[BlkTom]

I've heard that using a small squad of Lesser Daemons to deepstrike on an objective during the last turn is a viable tactic, though I have not tested this out for myself, I intend to at some point.

 

 

Problem with that is they are still reserves. You can only delay their arrivial if there is no icons on the table (say your outflanking them or using them via reserves), and you can't bring them on the same round the icon arrives. That is not a tactic, that is dumb luck of failing your reserve roll 4 times.

[neonmeat]

Its my understanding that lesser daemons can only come in onto an icon and if one is not available they are destroyed.

 

I know chosen can infiltrate perhaps with an icon to ds onto but I didn't think there was an option to outflank?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I've heard that using a small squad of Lesser Daemons to deepstrike on an objective during the last turn is a viable tactic, though I have not tested this out for myself, I intend to at some point.

 

 

Problem with that is they are still reserves. You can only delay their arrivial if there is no icons on the table (say your outflanking them or using them via reserves), and you can't bring them on the same round the icon arrives. That is not a tactic, that is dumb luck of failing your reserve roll 4 times.

They have to come in? Really? The few times I've played I usually have a reserve heavy army, and I remember no rule that the reserves have to come in on a certain turn, save for the Space Marine's Drop Pod assault rule.

[neonmeat]

I think you have to start rolling for them in turn two as if they were normal reserves. They can only deepstrike within 6inches of an icon and if there is non on the table when they come in they get destroyed.

 

That's how I've been playing it anyway. Its not too great.

[BlkTom]

I've heard that using a small squad of Lesser Daemons to deepstrike on an objective during the last turn is a viable tactic, though I have not tested this out for myself, I intend to at some point.

 

 

Problem with that is they are still reserves. You can only delay their arrivial if there is no icons on the table (say your outflanking them or using them via reserves), and you can't bring them on the same round the icon arrives. That is not a tactic, that is dumb luck of failing your reserve roll 4 times.

They have to come in? Really? The few times I've played I usually have a reserve heavy army, and I remember no rule that the reserves have to come in on a certain turn, save for the Space Marine's Drop Pod assault rule.

 

Yes, really. Guess you were cheating inadvertly. Neonmeat is right on, they don't delay, they are destroyed if there is no Icon avaible.

 

Note: you must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. You may not delay making the dice rolls or keep the reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them!

 

pg 94 BRB