Crowe to be faqd?

[Zagman]

Or, for 50 points less, you can take a useful unit called a Brotherhood Champion. You get all the wonderful cc killy power of Crowe (which I think you overstate) but you can actually put him into a squad which keeps you from having to come up with expensive ways of making crowe get into cc. I mean seriously, the fact that you have to suggest teleporting crowe with a libby just to get him into cc means you're spending a useful psychic power from a libby just to make a terribad unit moderately useful. He really isn't good. I mean, just take a champion, put him in a squad and call it a day. Save yourself 50 points, take a unit that doesn't require shennanigans to get back his points.

 

Purifiers as troops... an additional wound which makes all the difference against hoards. By making Purifiers troops you affect your entire army while freeing up elite slots. That is a phenomenally powerful ability and should not be underrated.

 

Even if you simply run him behind a transport, or let him hijack one, he has a good chance to get into CC. If he gets there he is going to seriously hurt whatever he hits. You also get the ability to take purifiers as troops, and they are phenomenal.

 

Worst case scenario your opponent opens up on him with High S Low AP weaponry which isn't targeting the rest of your force.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why would they bother with the powerfull High S, Low AP weaponry (which would be much better of used on other things), when he's a 2W Marine, and dies to everything that kills marines.

 

Fail two 3+ saves and he's dead to Bolt Pistols or Lasguns. A much more effective way to killing him.

 

Or you tie him up with a Tac Squad (or Equivalent) with a PF Sarge and wait for him to fail the Iron Halo save (even if he tarpits and rerolls) and ID him.

 

1)He rends on a 4+, meaning auto wound and auto armor pierce.

2)He hits about 90% of the models in the game on a 3+

3)As his rending is a 4+, that means the at least 50% of his hits will rend.

4)Then theres the perfect warrior stances.

5)Initiative 6

6)Re-roll all to hits vs. Daemons.

7)WS4< will only hit him on 5+, most everything else will hit him on 4+.

 

Well, to be *brutally* honest, you won't *ever* get any use from 1, 2, 3, 5, or 6. As the only way to run him is to use Perfect Warrior to drop into defensive stance for the rerolls.

 

Anything else is just asking for him to kill a single mini (go go no Attack score...) and then get butchered.

[Loyalist]

I can use three extra Elite slots (i.e. for Assassins, Paladins, Venerable Dreadnought) and want Purifiers as Troops, so I'll try Crowe.

 

The other HQ is Coteaz so one Troop is a 3-man squad of basic Warriors (12 points) with a Rhino that Crowe can hijack. One of the freed Elite slots can give Cotaez a bodyguard of Paladins.

 

If Crowe doesn't make his points in a majority of games he'll become a Justicar model.

[Prathios]

Or, for 50 points less, you can take a useful unit called a Brotherhood Champion. You get all the wonderful cc killy power of Crowe (which I think you overstate) but you can actually put him into a squad which keeps you from having to come up with expensive ways of making crowe get into cc. I mean seriously, the fact that you have to suggest teleporting crowe with a libby just to get him into cc means you're spending a useful psychic power from a libby just to make a terribad unit moderately useful. He really isn't good. I mean, just take a champion, put him in a squad and call it a day. Save yourself 50 points, take a unit that doesn't require shennanigans to get back his points.

 

Purifiers as troops... an additional wound which makes all the difference against hoards. By making Purifiers troops you affect your entire army while freeing up elite slots. That is a phenomenally powerful ability and should not be underrated.

 

Even if you simply run him behind a transport, or let him hijack one, he has a good chance to get into CC. If he gets there he is going to seriously hurt whatever he hits. You also get the ability to take purifiers as troops, and they are phenomenal.

 

Worst case scenario your opponent opens up on him with High S Low AP weaponry which isn't targeting the rest of your force.

 

I don't really have any issues freeing up elite slots. We have such wonderful options in every category that it really isn't an issue. Look at Draigo for instance. He has an incredibly powerful ability that lets you field 2 paladins to cover your entire force org requirements. Not that I would ever do this but he has an ability just as good as Crowe and yet... Draigo is actually very very useful in combat. Purifiers are good, they are great even, but I don't need them to be troops. I have SSGK that are very good and come with a great power, and I can take terminators as troops. I'm not going to hamstring myself for 150 points to open up a few slots. Against any opponent who has even half a brain, all Crowe is, is a free kill point. He will never make CC against an opponent that's even casually glanced at the codex. Gentleman was quite correct, Crowe will get gunned down by kroot in one round of shooting. Seems like wasting points enough to take a dreadknight in order to get purifiers as troops, that's not a clever move imo. ;)

[Slyfox1990]

Or, for 50 points less, you can take a useful unit called a Brotherhood Champion. You get all the wonderful cc killy power of Crowe (which I think you overstate) but you can actually put him into a squad which keeps you from having to come up with expensive ways of making crowe get into cc. I mean seriously, the fact that you have to suggest teleporting crowe with a libby just to get him into cc means you're spending a useful psychic power from a libby just to make a terribad unit moderately useful. He really isn't good. I mean, just take a champion, put him in a squad and call it a day. Save yourself 50 points, take a unit that doesn't require shennanigans to get back his points.

 

Purifiers as troops... an additional wound which makes all the difference against hoards. By making Purifiers troops you affect your entire army while freeing up elite slots. That is a phenomenally powerful ability and should not be underrated.

 

Even if you simply run him behind a transport, or let him hijack one, he has a good chance to get into CC. If he gets there he is going to seriously hurt whatever he hits. You also get the ability to take purifiers as troops, and they are phenomenal.

 

Worst case scenario your opponent opens up on him with High S Low AP weaponry which isn't targeting the rest of your force.

They have more attacks not wounds.

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, to be fair, he can be faily good in CC.

 

But only if you face him off versus an IC or MC for Rapier Strike.

 

Oh, and when you face an IC or MC that doesn't have an Invulnerable save.

 

Stack all that together, and manage to get him into CC with Said IC/MC, and you'll probably kill your target. Either from Rapier Strike (agian as long as the IC/MC doesn't have more than 3 wounds, which isn't many....), or Heroic Sacrifice.

 

Just don't try this versus the Eldar, or any other army with a Librairan or Rune Priest.

 

Would suck to have your 150 points wasted when your suicide HS charge is blocked by Runes, Shadow, Hood, Runic Weapon, Runic Armour, WTT or anything else that stops Psychic Powers...

 

To be honest, this set up is *so* limited, and far too hard to pull off, for Crowe to be anything else than a badly design Purifier as Troop tax.

[Brother Dylan]

I think in any other codex that didn't have our HQ choices he would have been worth it, but we have the grandmaster who does just as good a job in a grey knight army of making our units troops and the brotherhood champion who can perform the same abilities as crowe and still buff the squad he joins.

[Angelis Mortis]

Why would they bother with the powerfull High S, Low AP weaponry (which would be much better of used on other things), when he's a 2W Marine, and dies to everything that kills marines.

 

Fail two 3+ saves and he's dead to Bolt Pistols or Lasguns. A much more effective way to killing him.

 

Or you tie him up with a Tac Squad (or Equivalent) with a PF Sarge and wait for him to fail the Iron Halo save (even if he tarpits and rerolls) and ID him.

 

Ok, then why take Mephiston? You could make the same exact argument about him save he's got one more wound. Heck same goes for just about every single IC that doesn't have T5 or Eternal Warrior (which is about 95% of them). One lascannon shot, one failed invulnerable save and bye bye SM Chapter Master.

 

1)He rends on a 4+, meaning auto wound and auto armor pierce.

2)He hits about 90% of the models in the game on a 3+

3)As his rending is a 4+, that means the at least 50% of his hits will rend.

4)Then theres the perfect warrior stances.

5)Initiative 6

6)Re-roll all to hits vs. Daemons.

7)WS4< will only hit him on 5+, most everything else will hit him on 4+.

 

Well, to be *brutally* honest, you won't *ever* get any use from 1, 2, 3, 5, or 6. As the only way to run him is to use Perfect Warrior to drop into defensive stance for the rerolls.

 

Anything else is just asking for him to kill a single mini (go go no Attack score...) and then get butchered.

 

No attack score? You know that he hits every model in BTB with him with one of the stances right? You know he can single out an enemy IC/MC and hit him several times at Init 10? I have no idea where you got the idea that the defensive stance was the only way to run him but thats just flat out wrong and kind of foolish.

[Zagman]

Why would they bother with the powerfull High S, Low AP weaponry (which would be much better of used on other things), when he's a 2W Marine, and dies to everything that kills marines.

 

Fail two 3+ saves and he's dead to Bolt Pistols or Lasguns. A much more effective way to killing him.

 

Or you tie him up with a Tac Squad (or Equivalent) with a PF Sarge and wait for him to fail the Iron Halo save (even if he tarpits and rerolls) and ID him.

 

1)He rends on a 4+, meaning auto wound and auto armor pierce.

2)He hits about 90% of the models in the game on a 3+

3)As his rending is a 4+, that means the at least 50% of his hits will rend.

4)Then theres the perfect warrior stances.

5)Initiative 6

6)Re-roll all to hits vs. Daemons.

7)WS4< will only hit him on 5+, most everything else will hit him on 4+.

 

Well, to be *brutally* honest, you won't *ever* get any use from 1, 2, 3, 5, or 6. As the only way to run him is to use Perfect Warrior to drop into defensive stance for the rerolls.

 

Anything else is just asking for him to kill a single mini (go go no Attack score...) and then get butchered.

 

Cough... Artificer armor...

 

He can also reroll his 2+/4++ and cleansing flame whole units, or chose to attack all models in base, usually 7. 7 attacks in CC isn't to shabby when he'll average over 2 PW wounds dealt plus whatever cleansing flame does.

 

That PF sergeant will need on average 5 rounds to kill Crowe if he uses blade shield. I'm pretty sure that he could do some damage in that time with cleansing flame. Cleansing Flame then sword storm isn't a bad option either. Nets him almost half the tactical squad with only a 1/3 chance of dieing to the fist. He's also cheaper...

[Chengar Qordath]

Why would they bother with the powerfull High S, Low AP weaponry (which would be much better of used on other things), when he's a 2W Marine, and dies to everything that kills marines.

 

Fail two 3+ saves and he's dead to Bolt Pistols or Lasguns. A much more effective way to killing him.

 

Or you tie him up with a Tac Squad (or Equivalent) with a PF Sarge and wait for him to fail the Iron Halo save (even if he tarpits and rerolls) and ID him.

 

Ok, then why take Mephiston? You could make the same exact argument about him save he's got one more wound. Heck same goes for just about every single IC that doesn't have T5 or Eternal Warrior (which is about 95% of them). One lascannon shot, one failed invulnerable save and bye bye SM Chapter Master.

You might want to check Mephiston's unit entry again; he has a lot more than just one more wound than Crowe.

 

As for ICs, one of the main uses of the Independent Character rule is to put them in a squad so they have ablative wounds to prevent things like Lascannon sniping, not to mention that ICs are much less troublesome to put into a transport.

 

On the topic of Crowe himself, I would agree that he's potent if you can get him into close combat; like someone else mentioned he's one of the only models in the game that can solo a 30-strong mob Ork mob without fear. However, getting him into his ideal situation can be a bit problematic. He's certainly a solid choice, but I don't think he's quite as good as a Librarian or GKGM.

[Prathios]

Don't use him for a few games. Use another of the HQ options and watch as you see what getting your points worth is like. I'm not even going to address the Mephiston point, you don't know much about him if you make that comparison. Crowe is good if he is in CC... my beef is he wont ever get there. Its not worth spending points on an HQ if you have to shenanigan him into CC through tricks. The opportunity cost on the other HQ's is too high. 150 point tax is his only reason for purchase.

 

God forbid you use him in an annihilation game, that's an easy as hell kill point to get.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ok, then why take Mephiston? You could make the same exact argument about him save he's got one more wound. Heck same goes for just about every single IC that doesn't have T5 or Eternal Warrior (which is about 95% of them). One lascannon shot, one failed invulnerable save and bye bye SM Chapter Master.

 

Meph isn't one of them. ;)

 

No attack score? You know that he hits every model in BTB with him with one of the stances right? You know he can single out an enemy IC/MC and hit him several times at Init 10? I have no idea where you got the idea that the defensive stance was the only way to run him but thats just flat out wrong and kind of foolish.

 

And you'll be lucky to get more than 3 around him in B2B. Even with rerolls, after to-hit and his 50% wound roll, you're looking at around 1 dead in a phase, if you don't face Invulnerable saves...

 

I spoke about Rapier Strike further down. ;)

 

Cough... Artificer armor...

 

He can also reroll his 2+/4++ and cleansing flame whole units, or chose to attack all models in base, usually 7. 7 attacks in CC isn't to shabby when he'll average over 2 PW wounds dealt plus whatever cleansing flame does.

 

That PF sergeant will need on average 5 rounds to kill Crowe if he uses blade shield. I'm pretty sure that he could do some damage in that time with cleansing flame. Cleansing Flame then sword storm isn't a bad option either. Nets him almost half the tactical squad with only a 1/3 chance of dieing to the fist. He's also cheaper...

 

My bad! AA it is, not PA! :confused:

 

No way will you get 7 minis around a marine base. No way. Canis is lucky to get more than 5 aorund his dreadnought base.

 

CF is 50% chance to fire, after any anti psyker. Then the marines all get a save. It's rubbish versus Marines. You'd be better of saving your single Power for HS when the fist IDs him, just to take the sarge out. If the sarge is in B2B with him...

 

like someone else mentioned he's one of the only models in the game that can solo a 30-strong mob Ork mob without fear.

 

Until you roll a 1-3 for CF, do notihng and the Ork MOb destroys you with torrents. And you can't even then HS one of them in spite...

[veidin]

I run a Crowe list and everyone who says he doesnt make his points back, and he'll never make it into CC clearly has never played him. Mathhammering models usefulness is nothing compared to running them.

 

I've played every game with him so far. He's died twice and lived twice.

 

He ended one game against Chaos Space Marines wiping a 7 man squad of Plague Marines alone and contested the objective the Chaos player needed to tie.

 

Against Necrons he lived and killed 2 squads of Warriors alone. Took 1 wound.

 

Died to Tyranids sacrificing himself on a Trygon Prime. Made his points back easy.

 

Died to Dark Eldar but took 3 wyches and sacrificed himself on Lelith, again made his points back.

 

Most games are objective based. Disembark one squad into the objective in your deployment and let him take the transport. I run a techmarine too so my objective squad sits at a 3+ cover and now Crowe is free to plow forward into whatever I want him to tarpit or sacrifice himself on.

 

I thought he would suck too and was a tax up until I ran him. I've never looked back since I've run him he rocks. Plus if the enemy wants to dump a bunch of shots at his transport or him in general thats one less vehicle/squad shooting at my other 5 Razorbacks filled with Purifiers.

[RedemptionNL]

Until you roll a 1-3 for CF, do notihng and the Ork MOb destroys you with torrents. And you can't even then HS one of them in spite...

 

Ah, you're one of the few that plays Cleansing Flame as an all or nothing deal. Most people roll a die for each model in the unit, which causes one wound for each 4+. Much less likely to fail.

[Prathios]

I run a Crowe list and everyone who says he doesnt make his points back, and he'll never make it into CC clearly has never played him. Mathhammering models usefulness is nothing compared to running them.

 

I've played every game with him so far. He's died twice and lived twice.

 

He ended one game against Chaos Space Marines wiping a 7 man squad of Plague Marines alone and contested the objective the Chaos player needed to tie.

 

Against Necrons he lived and killed 2 squads of Warriors alone. Took 1 wound.

 

Died to Tyranids sacrificing himself on a Trygon Prime. Made his points back easy.

 

Died to Dark Eldar but took 3 wyches and sacrificed himself on Lelith, again made his points back.

 

Most games are objective based. Disembark one squad into the objective in your deployment and let him take the transport. I run a techmarine too so my objective squad sits at a 3+ cover and now Crowe is free to plow forward into whatever I want him to tarpit or sacrifice himself on.

 

I thought he would suck too and was a tax up until I ran him. I've never looked back since I've run him he rocks. Plus if the enemy wants to dump a bunch of shots at his transport or him in general thats one less vehicle/squad shooting at my other 5 Razorbacks filled with Purifiers.

 

I guess the people you play are not aware of him or how he works then. All of these situations have him in cc... I mean had a single squad of those necron warriors shot at him... free kill point. I don't see how this defense is in his favor, you got him into cc in all four games... who were you playing???

[veidin]

I run a Crowe list and everyone who says he doesnt make his points back, and he'll never make it into CC clearly has never played him. Mathhammering models usefulness is nothing compared to running them.

 

I've played every game with him so far. He's died twice and lived twice.

 

He ended one game against Chaos Space Marines wiping a 7 man squad of Plague Marines alone and contested the objective the Chaos player needed to tie.

 

Against Necrons he lived and killed 2 squads of Warriors alone. Took 1 wound.

 

Died to Tyranids sacrificing himself on a Trygon Prime. Made his points back easy.

 

Died to Dark Eldar but took 3 wyches and sacrificed himself on Lelith, again made his points back.

 

Most games are objective based. Disembark one squad into the objective in your deployment and let him take the transport. I run a techmarine too so my objective squad sits at a 3+ cover and now Crowe is free to plow forward into whatever I want him to tarpit or sacrifice himself on.

 

I thought he would suck too and was a tax up until I ran him. I've never looked back since I've run him he rocks. Plus if the enemy wants to dump a bunch of shots at his transport or him in general thats one less vehicle/squad shooting at my other 5 Razorbacks filled with Purifiers.

 

I guess the people you play are not aware of him or how he works then. All of these situations have him in cc... I mean had a single squad of those necron warriors shot at him... free kill point. I don't see how this defense is in his favor, you got him into cc in all four games... who were you playing???

 

I stated I pop him into a Razorback to shoot forward. Pop smoke and you have a strong chance to live through many things. Next turn another 12" puts you at the very least 24-26" from your board edge. Most likely more if you deployed forward. Keep him in the transport so he doesnt get shot and wait til the enemy turn to either A blow it up, or B fail and then next turn he comes out on whatever you sped him towards.

 

Also a 2+ armor save with 2 wounds does quite well against most fire coming his way. Again, dont judge a model unless you are going to extensively test his capabilities otherwise you are simply making an opinion about a model without any actual experience

[Chengar Qordath]

like someone else mentioned he's one of the only models in the game that can solo a 30-strong mob Ork mob without fear.

 

Until you roll a 1-3 for CF, do notihng and the Ork MOb destroys you with torrents. And you can't even then HS one of them in spite...

Let's do some mathhammer then:

 

Assume we're dealing with 29 slugga/choppa boyz, and one Klaw nob, since that's the optimum cc build for a 30-boy mob.

 

With Crowe getting the charge, it works out like so:

87 choppa attacks (hitting on a 4+), 43.5 hits (wounding on a 5+), 14.5 wounds vs 2+ re-rollable armor save = .403 unsaved wounds.

3 Klaw attacks (hitting on a 4+), 1.5 hits (woundin on a 2+), 1.25 wounds vs. rerollable 4+ invulnerable save = .3125 Klaw wounds

 

Here are the numbers for the Orks getting the charge:

116 choppa attacks (hitting on a 4+ w/re-rolls), 86.25 hits (wounding on a 4+), 43.125 wounds vs 2+ re-rollable armor save = 1.2 unsaved wounds.

4 Klaw attacks (hitting on a 4+ w/re-rolls), 3 hits (woundin on a 2+), 2.5 wounds vs. rerollable 4+ invulnerable save = .625 Klaw wounds

 

So, even if the Orks do get the charge on him with their full numbers and have an optimum cc build, Crowe has a better than even chance of surviving the torrent and living to fight another round. Of course, the dice gods don't always listen to statistical probability, but those are the numbers.

 

Edit: Forgot that a unit charging Crowe gets re-rolls to hit him on top of FC.

[Zagman]

like someone else mentioned he's one of the only models in the game that can solo a 30-strong mob Ork mob without fear.

 

Until you roll a 1-3 for CF, do notihng and the Ork MOb destroys you with torrents. And you can't even then HS one of them in spite...

Let's do some mathhammer then:

 

Assume we're dealing with 29 slugga/choppa boyz, and one Klaw nob, since that's the optimum cc build for a 30-boy mob.

 

With Crowe getting the charge, it works out like so:

87 choppa attacks (hitting on a 4+), 43.5 hits (wounding on a 5+), 14.5 wounds vs 2+ re-rollable armor save = .403 unsaved wounds.

3 Klaw attacks (hitting on a 4+), 1.5 hits (woundin on a 2+), 1.25 wounds vs. rerollable 4+ invulnerable save = .3125 Klaw wounds

 

Here are the numbers for the Orks getting the charge:

116 choppa attacks (hitting on a 4+), 58 hits (wounding on a 4+), 29 wounds vs 2+ re-rollable armor save = .806 unsaved wounds.

4 Klaw attacks (hitting on a 4+), 2 hits (woundin on a 2+), 1.67 wounds vs. rerollable 4+ invulnerable save = .4175 Klaw wounds

 

So, even if the Orks do get the charge on him with their full numbers and have an optimum cc build, Crowe has a better than even chance of surviving the torrent and living to fight another round. Of course, the dice gods don't always listen to statistical probability, but those are the numbers.

 

Now factor in the odds of Cleansing Flame and the odds the orks make those no retreat saves their likely to have to make.

[Prathios]

I run a Crowe list and everyone who says he doesnt make his points back, and he'll never make it into CC clearly has never played him. Mathhammering models usefulness is nothing compared to running them.

 

I've played every game with him so far. He's died twice and lived twice.

 

He ended one game against Chaos Space Marines wiping a 7 man squad of Plague Marines alone and contested the objective the Chaos player needed to tie.

 

Against Necrons he lived and killed 2 squads of Warriors alone. Took 1 wound.

 

Died to Tyranids sacrificing himself on a Trygon Prime. Made his points back easy.

 

Died to Dark Eldar but took 3 wyches and sacrificed himself on Lelith, again made his points back.

 

Most games are objective based. Disembark one squad into the objective in your deployment and let him take the transport. I run a techmarine too so my objective squad sits at a 3+ cover and now Crowe is free to plow forward into whatever I want him to tarpit or sacrifice himself on.

 

I thought he would suck too and was a tax up until I ran him. I've never looked back since I've run him he rocks. Plus if the enemy wants to dump a bunch of shots at his transport or him in general thats one less vehicle/squad shooting at my other 5 Razorbacks filled with Purifiers.

 

I guess the people you play are not aware of him or how he works then. All of these situations have him in cc... I mean had a single squad of those necron warriors shot at him... free kill point. I don't see how this defense is in his favor, you got him into cc in all four games... who were you playing???

 

I stated I pop him into a Razorback to shoot forward. Pop smoke and you have a strong chance to live through many things. Next turn another 12" puts you at the very least 24-26" from your board edge. Most likely more if you deployed forward. Keep him in the transport so he doesnt get shot and wait til the enemy turn to either A blow it up, or B fail and then next turn he comes out on whatever you sped him towards.

 

Also a 2+ armor save with 2 wounds does quite well against most fire coming his way. Again, dont judge a model unless you are going to extensively test his capabilities otherwise you are simply making an opinion about a model without any actual experience

 

So I'm to assume that when and if the transport dies nobody shoots at the guy inside? Or if your opponent knows he is inside the transport why would they bother with it at all? Unless of course it's an annihilation game. The second he steps out of the transport, being unable to charge he gets popped. I can only argue from the standpoint of how I play. How I would react to an opponent using Crowe against me. I can't see any way for him to ever be helpful against me, but then again, I know what he can do. As players become familiar with our dex I imagine you will see his returns diminish at an astounding rate.

 

Oh and I'm not going to extensively play-test a unit that I have infinitely better options than using. I don't waste my time with an HQ that requires me to come up with crazy plans just to attempt to get the points back. I could take a GM or a libby instead and just play with a normal strategy. Try using him against the Tau, :tu:

[veidin]

I run a Crowe list and everyone who says he doesnt make his points back, and he'll never make it into CC clearly has never played him. Mathhammering models usefulness is nothing compared to running them.

 

I've played every game with him so far. He's died twice and lived twice.

 

He ended one game against Chaos Space Marines wiping a 7 man squad of Plague Marines alone and contested the objective the Chaos player needed to tie.

 

Against Necrons he lived and killed 2 squads of Warriors alone. Took 1 wound.

 

Died to Tyranids sacrificing himself on a Trygon Prime. Made his points back easy.

 

Died to Dark Eldar but took 3 wyches and sacrificed himself on Lelith, again made his points back.

 

Most games are objective based. Disembark one squad into the objective in your deployment and let him take the transport. I run a techmarine too so my objective squad sits at a 3+ cover and now Crowe is free to plow forward into whatever I want him to tarpit or sacrifice himself on.

 

I thought he would suck too and was a tax up until I ran him. I've never looked back since I've run him he rocks. Plus if the enemy wants to dump a bunch of shots at his transport or him in general thats one less vehicle/squad shooting at my other 5 Razorbacks filled with Purifiers.

 

I guess the people you play are not aware of him or how he works then. All of these situations have him in cc... I mean had a single squad of those necron warriors shot at him... free kill point. I don't see how this defense is in his favor, you got him into cc in all four games... who were you playing???

 

I stated I pop him into a Razorback to shoot forward. Pop smoke and you have a strong chance to live through many things. Next turn another 12" puts you at the very least 24-26" from your board edge. Most likely more if you deployed forward. Keep him in the transport so he doesnt get shot and wait til the enemy turn to either A blow it up, or B fail and then next turn he comes out on whatever you sped him towards.

 

Also a 2+ armor save with 2 wounds does quite well against most fire coming his way. Again, dont judge a model unless you are going to extensively test his capabilities otherwise you are simply making an opinion about a model without any actual experience

 

So I'm to assume that when and if the transport dies nobody shoots at the guy inside? Or if your opponent knows he is inside the transport why would they bother with it at all? Unless of course it's an annihilation game. The second he steps out of the transport, being unable to charge he gets popped. I can only argue from the standpoint of how I play. How I would react to an opponent using Crowe against me. I can't see any way for him to ever be helpful against me, but then again, I know what he can do. As players become familiar with our dex I imagine you will see his returns diminish at an astounding rate.

 

Oh and I'm not going to extensively play-test a unit that I have infinitely better options than using. I don't waste my time with an HQ that requires me to come up with crazy plans just to attempt to get the points back. I could take a GM or a libby instead and just play with a normal strategy. Try using him against the Tau, :D

 

So you havent fielded him? What are you basing your "infinately better options" on then? It's not experience which leaves theory. You ASSUME he's not useful without actually knowing. The word for this is being naive. I fail to see any "crazy plans" by driving him up in a Razorback. You mention a Libby as a better HQ (which I love the Libby btw) however, how are you getting him into combat or utilizing his 150+ points? I assume you dont foot slog him since your issue with Crowe is that he'd just get shot up which would equally happen to a Libby.

 

That leaves Deep Strike, Storm Raven, Land Raider, or you run an Inquisitorial force and steal a Chimera (which is the same concept I mentioned about Crowe stealing a Razorback which you said was a "crazy plan") If you DS you run the risk of not coming in anytime soon unless you also run a GM/BC. Also our Libby's are more utility based not offensively based so this seems silly to not have him on the field as much as possible. If you run a LR or SR you have now spent at the very least 355 points on two models and that's with the Libby having no spells except Hammerhand and a vanilla SR with no squad attached to the Libby.

 

Again, I fail to see how you note the worth of a model that you admittedly wont "Waste your time on."

[Valerian]

I think it is poor design to make these guys not ICs. Might make sense for the Sanguinor, but Mephiston (who would need to be toned down if made an IC) DC Tycho and Crowe should be ICs. It wouldn't be that hard to make them balanced as ICs.

This is true. But it would also mean you'd have to tone down Mephiston A LOT. If Mephy as he currently is could be attached to units, he'd break the game, no exaggeration. You can't eat your cake and have it, too.

 

True, but I think that Ward did make Mephiston a little too over-the-top in this incarnation of his rules. His old/original fluff always justified that he had developed a step beyond being "just" a Space Marine, however, not that he had become quite an "avatar" level of power.

 

Also, I do think it's a little too literal to equate the inability of an HQ model to join units with an inability to actually lead an army. :lol:

 

Absolutely true, but the game doesn't really have a good system for representing the effects of leadership and command on the battlefield. Some SCs have special rules that make a difference (God of War and Grand Strategy, etc), but for the most part our heroes "lead" and make a difference in the game by attaching to a unit and helping that unit kick butt in close combat.

 

In my opinion, units of one are best left in Elite slots, like Assassins and Lone Wolves, which really are supposed to operate on their own, but have also been effectively designed to do so.

 

Lastly, Crowe is a Brotherhood Champion. Now, look at the fluff for the Brotherhood Champion. His sole responsibility in the Grey Knights is to safeguard the Brother-Captain of his Brotherhood; sacrificing himself, if need be, to keep the Captain alive. How is Crowe supposed to do that when he can't even join the unit that his Brother-Captain has joined?

 

V

[Iron Lord]

He's the head of the Purifier order as well- which are, in effect, a "mini-Brotherhood".

 

So he might not have the job of "bodyguarding" in this case.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah, you're one of the few that plays Cleansing Flame as an all or nothing deal. Most people roll a die for each model in the unit, which causes one wound for each 4+. Much less likely to fail.

 

That was a decision by my group. I argued for a dice per mini, the group decided the written rules were a single dice test.

 

Let's do some mathhammer then:

 

To be honest, I'm not familiar witht he Ork dex. Wouldn't the Klaw wound ID him though?

 

Now factor in the odds of Cleansing Flame and the odds the orks make those no retreat saves their likely to have to make.

 

Someone more able than me could add that in.

 

It would be the Psychic Test first (and we should also add the chance to peril and injure himself as well), then the 50% chance to get the power off, then each boy making a save.

[Valerian]

He's the head of the Purifier order as well- which are, in effect, a "mini-Brotherhood".

 

So he might not have the job of "bodyguarding" in this case.

 

Yeah I know, but now that opens a new can of fluff worms. Do the Purifiers have a Brother-Captain? If not, why do they need a Brotherhood Champion? Or, more likely, was he a Brotherhood Champion in a regular Brotherhood, but had to abandon that responsibility when selected for the Purifier Order? Did his old Captain have to interview and have tryouts for a new bodyguard?

 

It would have been so much better (in my opinion, of course) to have just made Grey Knights Veterans (guys that have been Strike/Interceptor Squad members for decades/centuries) who reside in the Brotherhoods as an Elite choice, rather than to create the new Order of Knights who are more incorruptable than the already incorruptible Grey Knights. Likewise, Brotherhood Champions should have been an Elite choice, as bodyguards of Brother-Champions.

 

V

[Prathios]

So you havent fielded him? What are you basing your "infinately better options" on then? It's not experience which leaves theory. You ASSUME he's not useful without actually knowing. The word for this is being naive. I fail to see any "crazy plans" by driving him up in a Razorback. You mention a Libby as a better HQ (which I love the Libby btw) however, how are you getting him into combat or utilizing his 150+ points? I assume you dont foot slog him since your issue with Crowe is that he'd just get shot up which would equally happen to a Libby.

 

That leaves Deep Strike, Storm Raven, Land Raider, or you run an Inquisitorial force and steal a Chimera (which is the same concept I mentioned about Crowe stealing a Razorback which you said was a "crazy plan") If you DS you run the risk of not coming in anytime soon unless you also run a GM/BC. Also our Libby's are more utility based not offensively based so this seems silly to not have him on the field as much as possible. If you run a LR or SR you have now spent at the very least 355 points on two models and that's with the Libby having no spells except Hammerhand and a vanilla SR with no squad attached to the Libby.

 

Again, I fail to see how you note the worth of a model that you admittedly wont "Waste your time on."

 

Well for starters I use things like... this message board to base my opinions by reading bat reps and viewing the opinions of those that have used him. Second I've seen him used several times and been unsurprised at his loss. Next, how can you even compare him to a libby??????? You can put a librarian in a squad. I think the thing you fail to grasp here is what a massive problem it is not to be able to attach him to a squad. Seriously, say your razorback thing works. They pop the razorback and now he's sitting there. The odds of a single squad of virtually anything killing him are good enough that hes not worth it. But something you're not allowing for is the fact that in your plans to use him you have to spend even more points to get him a transport. So now hes over 200 points. You don't make a bad unit better by investing in it. You make it better by choosing better options to start with. The overwhelming evidence with Crowe is that he isn't very good. You're one of the few people that would swear by him. I would wager that a year from now you will look back at this period with the dex and chuckle about it.

 

Just one question, would you not allow for the fact that he is the worst HQ in the dex?