Crowe—A giant plot hole?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've re-read Crowe's fluff, and it just doesn't make sense. He's got the daemon blade for safekeeping, to keep it out of the hands of both enemies, and people who could be corrupted. Sure, that's fine. But why does keeping it mean he actually has to use it? Why not...stick it in a sheath and use a real sword? I didn't see anything in his fluff saying he has to always keep it in his hands. Does he walk around with the daemonblade out all the time?

[Notanoob]

Because he's a dumb character with dumb fluff? Anyone could think of better solutions to that sword then the one they chose, it's like Ward was being intentionally dumb to make extra sure that he could have a GK wielding a demon weapon.

[Prathios]

Because he's a dumb character with dumb fluff? Anyone could think of better solutions to that sword then the one they chose, it's like Ward was being intentionally dumb to make extra sure that he could have a GK wielding a demon weapon.

 

This is an incredibly simplified and blunt way of saying... exactly what I was going to say. It's not really a plot hole, it's par for the course with this codex. He doesn't have to use it, and he should be able to join squads of purifiers at least, and he should use his own nemesis weapon in combat. It makes as much sense as Caldor Draigo running around killing everything in the warp by himself. Or you know, the fact that he was cursed in the first place... (Is that not the reason they are covered in hexagramic wards and prayer seals?) So stupid.

[grimz]

Weird I was thinking this exact same thing the other day... why not acutally use a GOOD sword

[Tybrus]

I am the most noble of Grey Knights, entrusted with the greatest demon of all time. I should...

 

A) Stay on titan maybe even in a locked section devoting my life to keeping this blade safe....

 

OR

 

:lol: Take it into the depths of places about to be over run with Demons, Chaos, Xenos, or Emperor knows what; where all I have to do is drop it not even fall in combat and Chaos gets its most beloved item back?

 

 

Yeah...

[Angelis Mortis]

Weird I was thinking this exact same thing the other day... why not acutally use a GOOD sword

 

Well, for one his rules basically give him the same effects as having a special weapon.

 

1)He rends on a 4+, meaning auto wound and auto armor pierce.

2)He hits about 90% of the models in the game on a 3+

3)As his rending is a 4+, that means the at least 50% of his hits will rend.

4)Then theres the perfect warrior stances.

5)Initiative 6

6)Re-roll all to hits vs. Daemons.

 

It says it behaves as a CCW, but in practice his attacks are anything but normal attacks.

[number6]

Oh clearly the situation is ridiculous. ;)

 

But you do realize this is Warhammer 40,000, don't you? We're talking about a game where "evil" and "bad" can always be easily discerned by the spikes and skulls worn by the Evildoers!

 

The game's fluff is not subtle. In fact, it is often downright simplistic and infantile! Crowe is only one example. To pick on him is to ignore a gazillion other illogical childishnesses.

 

At some point, you either have to:

 

A. Embrace the horror. :angry:

 

or

 

B. Find another game.

 

GW has only made their fluff more extreme as time has gone by. Not less. If you're looking for rationality, you're definitely playing the wrong game.

[Crynn]

How as no one seen the biggest plot hole in the GK codex? The first act Draigo makes as supreme grandmaster is to calve his predecessors name into mortarions heart. Not only does that mean he has to best a deamon prince primach in combat to the point where he can actually calve that in, he would have to best him in combat and then somehow as a greyknight not slay him. Yes they fought, draigo won, and then decided not to kill him. Matt Ward is the biggest idiot GW has every employed, I wish on a daily basis for a localised tornado to hit his house sweeping him up within it along with all the codecies and trial codecie documents he had ever written and then for him to suffer and agonising death by paper cuts from his own abysmal writing.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Eorek]

well... also why can't crowe join units? ... I mean models like mephiston that are super fast + strong would simply outrun his companions/don't need em(hey, the dude can cleave a monolith in 2 pieces) or like the sanguinor which is arriving alone and assists the blood angels in dire situations... even DC tycho has his excuses (I mean...who'd like to sit nex to him in a rhino?... )

but castellan... He's just a brotherhood champion that dosn't like to sit next to people and carries a deamon sword which he can't use properly...

Does anyone take castellan except for getting purifiers I wonder?

They could atleast have hiven him a real deamon blade and/or psyker level 2 so he could bbq orks and heroic sacrifice kill their warboss the same round...But no... castellan is also apparently the best swordman in the chapter... and yet he cannon fight singel model characters properly like mephiston/assassins due to them not being either independant characters nor monstrous creatures... Only 2 things I really like about him is : Purifier troops, the cleansing flame/heroic sacrifice kamakazie character...

[Cherub]

I like Matt Wards writing. After all there is precident in fantasy for normal people walking around in the chaos gods domain and coming back. And if I had the entire grey knights chapter at my beck and call Id be writing peoples names in deamons hearts too. I mean think about it, thats fricking cool.

[Crynn]

I like Matt Wards writing. After all there is precident in fantasy for normal people walking around in the chaos gods domain and coming back. And if I had the entire grey knights chapter at my beck and call Id be writing peoples names in deamons hearts too. I mean think about it, thats fricking cool.

 

No, not just deamon hearts, a deamon prince primach who he would never be able to best in combat. I can't believe I am reading that you think that is cool, I think it sounds like a six year old child picked up a crayon and went to town on mummy's living room wall. He's retconned half of their original fluff and I think it is generally excepted it is horrible. So you actually condone that marine characters can beat primachs in combat and that given the chance they wouldndn't kill one? Because that is what you are saying.

 

Crynn

[Cherub]

Cant kill a deamon prince, at least not permanetly. They do the whole reform in the warp, really pissed off thing same as the other demons.. And who says they didnt shoot the crap out of him first? maybe he was wounded and weak. Who knows. For all we know they shot him, attacked him, lots of knights died. Then Draigo cut open his chest carved the name in his rotten heart and shot him in the head banishing him back to the warp. Hell if we wanted to get real fancy with the imagination they could have sacrificed some virgin sister to summon him just so they could torture him. Its half a very small paragraph with not alot of details. Maybe they will write a short story about it some day. hint hint.

 

Anyway I think its awesome sauce wrapped in grey knight uberness.

 

Everyone gets retconned to some extent every book update. Ive been around since 2nd so Ive gotten use to it. So instead of whinning for the next 5-15 years about how much I hate this book, Ive decided to look at the things I like about it and ive learned that there is more that I like then I hate.

 

Come on we have Crowe who beats down demons with their ultimate weapon. Talk about spitting in their eye. We have ghost knights, Draigo the Awesome, and alot more units then we had last book. And the icing on the cake is the dreadknight. Yes they could have done things with it a bit different but then it would have looked like a jumped up dreadnought.

 

And yes I do condone and even encurage space marine characters beating up demon primarchs. After all when Chaos marines finally get a new book there will some random dude in there that kills calgar and feasts on his entrails or some other such chaos goodness. Doesnt matter if they are good or bad its great watching the big guys get taken down by some lowly mortal. God I love GW, MATT WARD FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!

[Brother Valerius]

I've re-read Crowe's fluff, and it just doesn't make sense. He's got the daemon blade for safekeeping, to keep it out of the hands of both enemies, and people who could be corrupted. Sure, that's fine. But why does keeping it mean he actually has to use it? Why not...stick it in a sheath and use a real sword? I didn't see anything in his fluff saying he has to always keep it in his hands. Does he walk around with the daemonblade out all the time?

 

Keeping it sheathed on his back would be a pretty bad idea, in my opinion. It's way too easy to just rip out of the sheath that way. If it can't be kept in a secure storage vault somewhere, and must be in his possession (which is kind of debatable, but meh), then the best place for it is in his hands. Then someone will have to kill or disarm him to take the blade, which is going to be a lot harder than simply grabbing it off him while he's preoccupied with someone else in combat.

 

I like Matt Wards writing. After all there is precident in fantasy for normal people walking around in the chaos gods domain and coming back. And if I had the entire grey knights chapter at my beck and call Id be writing peoples names in deamons hearts too. I mean think about it, thats fricking cool.

 

No, not just deamon hearts, a deamon prince primach who he would never be able to best in combat. I can't believe I am reading that you think that is cool, I think it sounds like a six year old child picked up a crayon and went to town on mummy's living room wall. He's retconned half of their original fluff and I think it is generally excepted it is horrible. So you actually condone that marine characters can beat primachs in combat and that given the chance they wouldndn't kill one? Because that is what you are saying.

 

Crynn

 

He can't kill him, daemons are indestructible. I also think that it's pretty reasonable for Draigo to be on a level where he could go toe-to-toe with a primarch (and remember, even if you outmatch someone you can still lose). A primarch is way better than a normal space marine. OK, fair enough. However, remember that the grey knights are stated to be as far above a normal space marine as space marines are above an average human. Now factor in that as the supreme grand master of the order, Draigo is far and away the best of those giants of men. That's getting up to primarch-level in my opinion, and as such his ability to best Mortarion in combat is completely reasonable.

 

I quite like Mat Ward's fluff as well. I think he portrays the over-the-top style of 40k extremely well, and I enjoy reading his fluff.

[stoopicus]

I'm as big of a fan of over the top, beer and pretzels game fiction as anyone, but Ward's fluff is execrable. Seriously, it's bad to the point that the codex would be improved by just cutting it out with a hobby knife. Jarring, out of character imagery out of left field like "they scattered the broken finger bones of saints to sanctify the portal" just make it impossible to read on any level, it just. simply. sucks.

 

Ghost buddies? Demon blades? DAEMONHOSTS? Some dude stumbles out of the warp after being trapped in it for centuries and they DON'T immediately incinerate the guy on spec? Basically Ward took the GK and made them, more or less, into radical inquisition commandos. Which is diametrically opposed to the previous codex, where they were totally opposed to the radical inquisitors.

 

Worst fluff in my opinion in a long time for GW, which is saying a lot.

[maturin]

How as no one seen the biggest plot hole in the GK codex? The first act Draigo makes as supreme grandmaster is to calve his predecessors name into mortarions heart. Not only does that mean he has to best a deamon prince primach in combat to the point where he can actually calve that in, he would have to best him in combat and then somehow as a greyknight not slay him. Yes they fought, draigo won, and then decided not to kill him. Matt Ward is the biggest idiot GW has every employed, I wish on a daily basis for a localised tornado to hit his house sweeping him up within it along with all the codecies and trial codecie documents he had ever written and then for him to suffer and agonising death by paper cuts from his own abysmal writing.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

LOL - I just had to give Crynn a shoutout for a very entertaining rant there. Plus, the following just popped into my head:

 

GK: "Great job Draigo, you've taken Mortarion down. Let's banish him and get outta here - his reinforcements are coming up fast!"

Draigo: "Or, I could carve Geronitan's name on Mortarion's heart!"

GK: "Ummm....ok, why?"

 

*5 minutes later, bolter fire echoing down the hallway*

 

GK: "Brother Captain Fonzie is down! 3 other brothers are hit! Let's get out of here, Draigo!"

Draigo: "Just another minute! I have to finish the "N"!

 

<_<

[greatcrusade08]

Matt wards fluff is very much a matter of taste, his rules on the other hand are prety damn good, for that reason alone i like his material.

ive always said if you want better fluff, pick up a book by A-D-B or abnett

[stoopicus]

Matt wards fluff is very much a matter of taste, his rules on the other hand are prety damn good, for that reason alone i like his material.

ive always said if you want better fluff, pick up a book by A-D-B or abnett

 

I'd agree with that. The codex itself, while at first glance seeming massively over the top, is turning out to look more balanced than people originally thought.

 

For example, yes, every model gets force weapons. It turns out that that is both in keeping with the fluff (old and new) AND not game breaking, except maybe against one or two armies that need updates anyway. Well, ok, it sucks to play 'nids now and they just got a codex. But they can consider this revenge for tervies :)

 

I am a bit concerned with apparent mudflation - but as long as the next codex or three don't try and one-up this one (which IS supposed to represent the pinnacle of the imperium, equipment-wise, at least until there's an Adeptus Mechanicus 'dex), it should be ok.

 

Then again, maybe they don't care and intend to rebalance with 6th.

[Crynn]

I've re-read Crowe's fluff, and it just doesn't make sense. He's got the daemon blade for safekeeping, to keep it out of the hands of both enemies, and people who could be corrupted. Sure, that's fine. But why does keeping it mean he actually has to use it? Why not...stick it in a sheath and use a real sword? I didn't see anything in his fluff saying he has to always keep it in his hands. Does he walk around with the daemonblade out all the time?

 

Keeping it sheathed on his back would be a pretty bad idea, in my opinion. It's way too easy to just rip out of the sheath that way. If it can't be kept in a secure storage vault somewhere, and must be in his possession (which is kind of debatable, but meh), then the best place for it is in his hands. Then someone will have to kill or disarm him to take the blade, which is going to be a lot harder than simply grabbing it off him while he's preoccupied with someone else in combat.

 

I like Matt Wards writing. After all there is precident in fantasy for normal people walking around in the chaos gods domain and coming back. And if I had the entire grey knights chapter at my beck and call Id be writing peoples names in deamons hearts too. I mean think about it, thats fricking cool.

 

No, not just deamon hearts, a deamon prince primach who he would never be able to best in combat. I can't believe I am reading that you think that is cool, I think it sounds like a six year old child picked up a crayon and went to town on mummy's living room wall. He's retconned half of their original fluff and I think it is generally excepted it is horrible. So you actually condone that marine characters can beat primachs in combat and that given the chance they wouldndn't kill one? Because that is what you are saying.

 

Crynn

 

He can't kill him, daemons are indestructible. I also think that it's pretty reasonable for Draigo to be on a level where he could go toe-to-toe with a primarch (and remember, even if you outmatch someone you can still lose). A primarch is way better than a normal space marine. OK, fair enough. However, remember that the grey knights are stated to be as far above a normal space marine as space marines are above an average human. Now factor in that as the supreme grand master of the order, Draigo is far and away the best of those giants of men. That's getting up to primarch-level in my opinion, and as such his ability to best Mortarion in combat is completely reasonable.

 

I quite like Mat Ward's fluff as well. I think he portrays the over-the-top style of 40k extremely well, and I enjoy reading his fluff.

 

 

It si very true that deamons resurrect and that mortarian may have been 'shot to bits first' however saying it's reasonable that draigo is on his level is absurd. If you have ever read any fluff on primachs it would be rather obvious that this would be physically impossible. From thr ground up he is just not engineered that way as by being a marine not a primach. If their was some giant battle with mortarian where the GK's took him down then I think it would be in the section with alot of those 'GK magic moments' I'd say we took down a primach would be about as good as it gets. It is beyond rediculous, I mean common draigo would loose to sanguinor in combat haha. On a serious note ward is a fool.

 

As for crowe having to weild that sword because it would be to easy to pry it out of a sheath, thats rather rediculous. A space marine would have a hell of a grip then again so would just incasing it in ceramite so it physically could not be unsheathed and then make the sheath undetachable from his armour. Now you must brake it off his dead corpse to take it. Really Ward is rediculous with his writing i won't go into the fact he reduced the GKs to 1000 yet they still deal with all the same amount of deamons.

 

Bah, I guess each to their own and these are all just opinions where nothing is fact and everything is fiction.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Daedalus Templarius]

Pretty sure Draigo carving his predecessors name into Mortarion's heart was a figurative. At least I hope it was.

 

Also, he is a tragic character, forever destined to walk the Chaos wastes, destroying all that is before him, just to see it come back as soon as he moves on.

[Octavulg]

Angron killed a hundred Grey Knights when they banished him at Armageddon.

 

I think that, just maybe, Matt Ward's writing with the whole Mortarion thing is ridiculous.

[KaosRaptor]

It is very true that deamons resurrect and that mortarian may have been 'shot to bits first'

I agree with your post, except for the fact the passage says that Draigo did it "alone and unaided", and apparently carved through Mortarions' bodyguard first. All of which being, I'd imagine, devout Chosen of Nurgle. Which would mean, immune to many attacks, resilient to death in all of its forms, and no slouches in combat either. But Draigo killed them all (alone, remember?), bested a DAEMON PRIMARCH of NURGLE in single combat, and then managed to actually wound said Primarch (who would be so hard to hurt it's not funny) and carve a name onto his heart. Surely in order to do all of this, one would have to have the capabilities of a Primarch?

 

Honestly (in terms of fluff), it is an abomination of a codex. It's full of holes in the fluff, most of which had been already mentioned. But we don't need another "Ward sux!" thread, so suffice to say I wish they'd let someone else write the fluff for once.

[Crynn]

It is very true that deamons resurrect and that mortarian may have been 'shot to bits first'

I agree with your post, except for the fact the passage says that Draigo did it "alone and unaided", and apparently carved through Mortarions' bodyguard first. All of which being, I'd imagine, devout Chosen of Nurgle. Which would mean, immune to many attacks, resilient to death in all of its forms, and no slouches in combat either. But Draigo killed them all (alone, remember?), bested a DAEMON PRIMARCH of NURGLE in single combat, and then managed to actually wound said Primarch (who would be so hard to hurt it's not funny) and carve a name onto his heart. Surely in order to do all of this, one would have to have the capabilities of a Primarch?

 

Honestly (in terms of fluff), it is an abomination of a codex. It's full of holes in the fluff, most of which had been already mentioned. But we don't need another "Ward sux!" thread, so suffice to say I wish they'd let someone else write the fluff for once.

 

Think your quoting the wrong person, I'm on your side of the fence, I didn't remember the book said he carved through his whole bodyguard unaided and then bested him in combat! Jesus mat Ward must have had an extra strong dose of whatever he jacks himself up on before writing because that is just completely unbelievable and it really ruins a lot of writing that many compitent writers have written before him. it is actually rather insulting to them,

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

I will say, I didn't like how the BA codex played in terms of mech kiting being the strongest list however in terms of rules balance the BA's and GKs seem to be well balanced tules wise. Neither I believe as powerfull as guard or wolves which stand above the rest, so credit where credits due I guess. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

I like Crowe. His fluff, not his rules of course. :)

 

Well, I like the *idea* behind Crowe, just not is current implementation.

 

It's shoddy reasoning, that destroys the tenuous suspension of disbelief required to make our little men 'real'.

 

First, the Grey Knights, purest of the pure, are totally uncorruptable. Well, apart form this one sword, that will courrupt all of them. Well, apart form this single GK that is.

 

That happens to be *more* uncorruptable than the rest of the uncorruptable, that is.

 

Secondly, the sword draws followers towards it, and can't be destroyed by any known means. Cool. So you keep it in this totally uncorruptable GKs possession, to safeguard it. Not a bad idea.

 

But this GK, who has given over his life to the mental struggle of resisting the blade, for as long as he live, doesn't take the sensible route of shoring himself up somewhere safe and secure. able to fend off the constant and endless stream of 'baddies' drawn by the sword.

 

No.

 

He decides to wander the galaxy, putting himself in harms way, where the first Sniper Shot, Lascannon, Black Hole, Food Poisoning, etc, etc, event will free the sword, and actually *gift* it to his enemies.

 

/golfclap

 

If I was Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, the organisation that does *whatever* is necessary, you know, sacrificing *innocent* Sisters of Battle to stop the uncorruptable being corrupted (again?), there is no way on Titan I'd let Crowe out of the door.

 

Sorry mate, Golden Throne mark 2 here you come...

 

And lastly, there's the idea that Crowe would actually *swing* the Sword in the first place. Why? Ther'es no logic, no rhime or reason.

 

Unless, he *has* to hold it in his hands to stop its influence.

 

In which case, how does he sleep?

 

 

Crowe is a good idea, but it's been poorly implemented. He desperately needs a revision and polish. In both rules and fluff.

[Hellios]

Actually it is possible to destroy a daemon forever... just very hard... and banishing them is hard enough.... oh and to destroy them you have to know their names.

[KaosRaptor]

Think your quoting the wrong person, I'm on your side of the fence, I didn't remember the book said he carved through his whole bodyguard unaided and then bested him in combat! Jesus mat Ward must have had an extra strong dose of whatever he jacks himself up on before writing because that is just completely unbelievable and it really ruins a lot of writing that many compitent writers have written before him. it is actually rather insulting to them,

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

I will say, I didn't like how the BA codex played in terms of mech kiting being the strongest list however in terms of rules balance the BA's and GKs seem to be well balanced tules wise. Neither I believe as powerfull as guard or wolves which stand above the rest, so credit where credits due I guess. :)

Ah, sorry haha, looks like I misquoted :) . But yeah, I have the codex with me now. Draigo is a one man army it seems....Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Ward's rules at all, but thats where he should stay in my opinion. Leave the fluff-writing to people who will take it seriously at least.