stoopicus Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Actually it is possible to destroy a daemon forever... just very hard... and banishing them is hard enough.... oh and to destroy them you have to know their names. Which is theoretically difficult to know, except the minor point that they are all listed in the book that every Grey Knight wears on his chest. Remember folks, Reading is Fundamental. Those books also use the bones of martyred saints for their binding. Mat really has a hard-on for saint bones. I swear, it's like GW put up a poll on some emogoth darkmetal band's MySpace page asking "what do you think about while choking the chicken?" and rolled it all into codex fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2759979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Actually what I find is the more interesting part of Ward's stuff is how I enjoy his ideas, but can't stand his execution. I like the idea of keeping the daemon sword safe. (Granted I'd have tossed it in a stasis field in the vault with the rest of the daemons) However, I tend to enjoy the direction he is trying to go but his writing comes off far to juvenile. I don't like the direction of killing sisters to worship Khorne in order to protect themselves... GK should have been immune to the blood wash in that story anyway because of their immunities to warp powers. I just think Ward should stick to rule writing for 40k. He is good at writing new rules and balance and what have you. He also seems pretty good at writing fluff for the fantasy universe, he just needs to stick to that. Oh well, maybe I need to submit an application... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2759985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaosRaptor Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Actually what I find is the more interesting part of Ward's stuff is how I enjoy his ideas, but can't stand his execution. I like the idea of keeping the daemon sword safe. (Granted I'd have tossed it in a stasis field in the vault with the rest of the daemons) However, I tend to enjoy the direction he is trying to go but his writing comes off far to juvenile. I don't like the direction of killing sisters to worship Khorne in order to protect themselves... GK should have been immune to the blood wash in that story anyway because of their immunities to warp powers. I just think Ward should stick to rule writing for 40k. He is good at writing new rules and balance and what have you. He also seems pretty good at writing fluff for the fantasy universe, he just needs to stick to that. Oh well, maybe I need to submit an application... Pretty much exactly what I was trying to say. The new GK rules are generally fine as they are, but the fluff makes me want to murder...something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2759989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Which is theoretically difficult to know, except the minor point that they are all listed in the book that every Grey Knight wears on his chest. Remember folks, Reading is Fundamental. Except that the true names of daemons are apparently continually changing, so writing them down is useless. Hooray for contradictory background, Ward! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2759998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slyfox1990 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Edit; found another thread for original question His fluff is a bit stupid. I also find the fact that as his predecessors die the blade is passed down - so if they die out in the field then presumably the chances of it falling into enemy hands would be pretty high? seems daft to me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Which is theoretically difficult to know, except the minor point that they are all listed in the book that every Grey Knight wears on his chest. Remember folks, Reading is Fundamental. Except that the true names of daemons are apparently continually changing, so writing them down is useless. Hooray for contradictory background, Ward! Every "book" every Grey Knight wears on his chest is actually a smartphone with a Facebook App. "M'kar has updated his Facebook profile" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Which is theoretically difficult to know, except the minor point that they are all listed in the book that every Grey Knight wears on his chest. Remember folks, Reading is Fundamental. Except that the true names of daemons are apparently continually changing, so writing them down is useless. Hooray for contradictory background, Ward! Every "book" every Grey Knight wears on his chest is actually a smartphone with a Facebook App. "M'kar has updated his Facebook profile" Nah, it's just an iPhone. "Want to banish the daemonic incarnation of an ancient and timeless evil? There's an App for that!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Angron and a dozen Bloodthirsters killed a hundred Grey Knights when they banished him at Armageddon. I think that, just maybe, Matt Ward's writing with the whole Mortarion thing is ridiculous. Fixed. The most detailed description of that battle can be found here. Angron mainly had his hands full with Aurellian and his squad during the battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Actually what I find is the more interesting part of Ward's stuff is how I enjoy his ideas, but can't stand his execution. I like the idea of keeping the daemon sword safe. (Granted I'd have tossed it in a stasis field in the vault with the rest of the daemons) However, I tend to enjoy the direction he is trying to go but his writing comes off far to juvenile. I don't like the direction of killing sisters to worship Khorne in order to protect themselves... GK should have been immune to the blood wash in that story anyway because of their immunities to warp powers. I just think Ward should stick to rule writing for 40k. He is good at writing new rules and balance and what have you. He also seems pretty good at writing fluff for the fantasy universe, he just needs to stick to that. Oh well, maybe I need to submit an application... Can we please stop saying that the Grey Knights worshiped Khorne? They didn't. They covered themselves in the blood of innocent martyrs, as that was something which would have been anathema to a daemon. This is a pretty reasonable bit of fluff which everyone bashes, and I can't see why. The Grey Knights may be stated to be incorruptible, but that doesn't mean they get that by just existing. They are incorruptible because of their special armor, because of their strength of discipline, etc. It's not at all unreasonable for them to examine a situation, decide they need some protection against the foul warp taint, and do what must be done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 They covered themselves in the blood of innocent martyrs, as that was something which would have been anathema to a daemon. BUH? As far as I can tell, that would be like a visit to a fine vacation resort spa for a daemon. Yet another example of the dumbest. fluff. EVER. In my opinion anyway. Your mileage may vary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 But if something is outright stated to be incorruptable, it doesn't mean "can be corrupted in these specific circumstances". Either Grey Knights are incorruptable, and don't need the protection, or they aren't, and they need protection, but the codex is wrong elsewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 They covered themselves in the blood of innocent martyrs, as that was something which would have been anathema to a daemon. BUH? As far as I can tell, that would be like a visit to a fine vacation resort spa for a daemon. Yet another example of the dumbest. fluff. EVER. In my opinion anyway. Your mileage may vary. it appears in Victories of the Space Marines too-in Ben Counter's short story Sacrifice- the blood of innocents is used in the manufacture of psycannon bolts. So it's not just Codex Grey Knights that raises the idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelofSorrow Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 It is very true that deamons resurrect and that mortarian may have been 'shot to bits first' I agree with your post, except for the fact the passage says that Draigo did it "alone and unaided", and apparently carved through Mortarions' bodyguard first. All of which being, I'd imagine, devout Chosen of Nurgle. Which would mean, immune to many attacks, resilient to death in all of its forms, and no slouches in combat either. But Draigo killed them all (alone, remember?), bested a DAEMON PRIMARCH of NURGLE in single combat, and then managed to actually wound said Primarch (who would be so hard to hurt it's not funny) and carve a name onto his heart. Surely in order to do all of this, one would have to have the capabilities of a Primarch? Honestly (in terms of fluff), it is an abomination of a codex. It's full of holes in the fluff, most of which had been already mentioned. But we don't need another "Ward sux!" thread, so suffice to say I wish they'd let someone else write the fluff for once. If the dice in a game can allow my lone stormtrooper (not sgt) to kill a carnifex and then scatter a unit of 15 termagants to capture an objective to win me a game of planetstrike Draigo can carve a name in a primach's heart. So fueled with adrenaline, superhuman abilities and a weapon designed to kill daemons this is completely plausible. Matthew ward for fluff and rules is the most enjoyable codex writer. I can't wait to see if he gets his hands on c:CSM Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 People may also be overrating Daemon Primarchs somewhat. Angron has been statted out in White Dwarf as part of an Apocalypse formation- and he's not much better than an ordinary Daemon Prince. Maybe the "upgrade" from Primarch to Daemon Primarch, is smaller than the upgrade from Marine to Daemon Prince- which is why Angron is close to a normal Daemon Prince in power? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Actually what I find is the more interesting part of Ward's stuff is how I enjoy his ideas, but can't stand his execution. I like the idea of keeping the daemon sword safe. (Granted I'd have tossed it in a stasis field in the vault with the rest of the daemons) However, I tend to enjoy the direction he is trying to go but his writing comes off far to juvenile. I don't like the direction of killing sisters to worship Khorne in order to protect themselves... GK should have been immune to the blood wash in that story anyway because of their immunities to warp powers. I just think Ward should stick to rule writing for 40k. He is good at writing new rules and balance and what have you. He also seems pretty good at writing fluff for the fantasy universe, he just needs to stick to that. Oh well, maybe I need to submit an application... Can we please stop saying that the Grey Knights worshiped Khorne? They didn't. They covered themselves in the blood of innocent martyrs, as that was something which would have been anathema to a daemon. This is a pretty reasonable bit of fluff which everyone bashes, and I can't see why. The Grey Knights may be stated to be incorruptible, but that doesn't mean they get that by just existing. They are incorruptible because of their special armor, because of their strength of discipline, etc. It's not at all unreasonable for them to examine a situation, decide they need some protection against the foul warp taint, and do what must be done. If the GK are sacrificing innocent servants of the Emperor (which pleases the great powers of the warp very much) then they are already corrupted. End of story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 If the GK are sacrificing innocent servants of the Emperor (which pleases the great powers of the warp very much) then they are already corrupted. End of story. Now who's being silly? :P No such thing as warfare without the loss of innocent life. Absolutely impossible to assert that even the purest of the pure of warriors wouldn't be killing innocents in the pursuit of military goals. Even if we assume that all such deaths were not purposefully caused, any person with the moral fortitude you imply would be horrified and tainted by the blood caused by his actions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Fixed. The most detailed description of that battle can be found here. Angron mainly had his hands full with Aurellian and his squad during the battle. That's the most turgid fluff I've ever read. Wow. In any case, even if you assume he's only equal to a Bloodthirster or other Greater Daemon (which would seem to be the case if their Epic stats are to be believed), that's still a little much for a single Grey Knight to take on. Of course, maybe I just think "Primarch who's been in the background since almost the beginning > over-the-top character cooked up by idiot" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Templarius Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Fixed. The most detailed description of that battle can be found here. Angron mainly had his hands full with Aurellian and his squad during the battle. That's the most turgid fluff I've ever read. Wow. In any case, even if you assume he's only equal to a Bloodthirster or other Greater Daemon (which would seem to be the case if their Epic stats are to be believed), that's still a little much for a single Grey Knight to take on. but...but... he's Lord Kaldor Draigo!? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 But if something is outright stated to be incorruptable, it doesn't mean "can be corrupted in these specific circumstances". Either Grey Knights are incorruptable, and don't need the protection, or they aren't, and they need protection, but the codex is wrong elsewhere. That's not true. You're taking "incorruptible" for granted, but that's not how it would (in theory) work. The Grey Knights aren't incorruptible because of plot armor, they're incorruptible because they take the steps to protect themselves against corruption. The two concepts are only in conflict if you construe "incorruptible" to mean "inherently incorruptible", which is not necessarily the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 In the 2nd ed book Codex Imperialis- it mentions that a reason Grey Knights are "mentally tougher" is that they have "received additional bio-engineering in keeping with their role". So it's not a unique idea- to have their reduced susceptibility to corruption be biological rather than "faith in the Emperor". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 If the GK are sacrificing innocent servants of the Emperor (which pleases the great powers of the warp very much) then they are already corrupted. End of story. Now who's being silly? ;) No such thing as warfare without the loss of innocent life. Absolutely impossible to assert that even the purest of the pure of warriors wouldn't be killing innocents in the pursuit of military goals. Even if we assume that all such deaths were not purposefully caused, any person with the moral fortitude you imply would be horrified and tainted by the blood caused by his actions. Ah, but you're mistaking simple military goals from willfully killing people who are on your team. It's one thing to observe the horrors of war, it's another to make them happen cause you're a disgusting monster. Well unfortunately according to Ward, the GK are monsters. No more space paladins for us, now we get to be the team of marines who are no better than traitors, we just happen to be playing for the Imperium... go us... Plus sacrificing the sisters would qualify as Khorne worship, so I guess the GK protect their souls by rubbing warp taint on them for a barrier? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 but...but... he's Lord Kaldor Draigo!? And when he's the Emperor's personal, hand-crafted, son, who has since been improved by the blatant favoritism of one of the greater Chaos Gods, he can talk to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Templarius Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The Grey Knights are basically Inquisition marines, do whatever is necessary to accomplish their mission, even if it means sacrificing the faithful for a shield against corruption. So no, they aren't space paladins, I don't really know if they ever were. And when he's the Emperor's personal, hand-crafted, son, who has since been improved by the blatant favoritism of one of the greater Chaos Gods, he can talk to me. being facetious ;) Draigo cutting through the bodyguard and then pounding Mortarion is a bit of a stretch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 If the GK are sacrificing innocent servants of the Emperor (which pleases the great powers of the warp very much) then they are already corrupted. End of story. Now who's being silly? :lol: No such thing as warfare without the loss of innocent life. Absolutely impossible to assert that even the purest of the pure of warriors wouldn't be killing innocents in the pursuit of military goals. Even if we assume that all such deaths were not purposefully caused, any person with the moral fortitude you imply would be horrified and tainted by the blood caused by his actions. Ah, but you're mistaking simple military goals from willfully killing people who are on your team. It's one thing to observe the horrors of war, it's another to make them happen cause you're a disgusting monster. Well unfortunately according to Ward, the GK are monsters. No more space paladins for us, now we get to be the team of marines who are no better than traitors, we just happen to be playing for the Imperium... go us... Plus sacrificing the sisters would qualify as Khorne worship, so I guess the GK protect their souls by rubbing warp taint on them for a barrier? If the Grey Knights ever were space paladins, they shouldn't have been. There's no room in 40k for space paladins. Also, to repeat myself, sacrificing sisters doesn't qualify as Khorne worship. Worship is all about intent. If that weren't the case, every single Space Marine (and Grey Knight) would be a Khorne worshiper, because they kill untold quantities of enemies in battle (very pleasing to Khorne!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 As for using Blood to stop the Blood Gods Courruption, and that being an obviously tainted thing to do, well, it is. ;) But then, this is the Group of Marines that *aren't* Psykers, but Sorcerers. Which is already a warp tainted thing anyway. So we might as well say that all Grey Knights are really part tainted, part warp, and not shinning beacons of purity. In which case, why doesn't Crowe use that damned sword? :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229852-crowe%E2%80%94a-giant-plot-hole/page/2/#findComment-2760414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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