Crowe—A giant plot hole?

[Oiad]

Fixed. The most detailed description of that battle can be found here. Angron mainly had his hands full with Aurellian and his squad during the battle.

That's the most turgid fluff I've ever read. Wow.

 

In any case, even if you assume he's only equal to a Bloodthirster or other Greater Daemon (which would seem to be the case if their Epic stats are to be believed), that's still a little much for a single Grey Knight to take on.

 

Of course, maybe I just think "Primarch who's been in the background since almost the beginning > over-the-top character cooked up by idiot"

GRIMNAR:

A noble warrior of the Emperor fell this day, Sergeant Kohler, and you will never see a greater display of heroism. Remember what you're saw today.

KOHLER:

I will...

Kohler turns to the Inquisitor standing beside them.

KOHLER:

...I'm ready for my mind-wipe now.

--------------------

 

Yeah, it is trash, but as a Grey Knight player I'm use to our chapter being badly represented by writers post C:DH. Hopefully both A-D-B and Fantasy-Flight will change that around soon. As a reference point though it's the closest we have to knowing what went on at Armageddon and it is helpful for correcting misinformation.

 

As for the Primarchs - not yet use to Grey Knights destroying this rigid sense of 'combat hierarchy' everyone has, huh? It's not even the worst example if that is the case. An Inquisitor slaying the head-honcho of the bloodthirsters in single combat tops both Draigo vs Mortarion, or Aurellian vs Angron. An'ggrath is after-all the kind warp-entity who'd even rip Angron a new cusshole for breakfast. Yet no-one makes a big fuss out of that.

 

--------------------

EDIT - Grammar and formatting.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Oh yea, ADB is working on a GK book. Can't wait for that.

 

Still get a kick out of the editor asking him if the finale spot would be a good place to showcase a dreadknight "That won't be happening..."

[Octavulg]

Yeah, it is trash, but as a Grey Knight player I'm use to our chapter being badly represented by writers post C:DH. Hopefully both A-D-B and Fantasy-Flight will change that around soon. As a reference point though it's the closest we have to knowing what went on at Armageddon and it is helpful for correcting misinformation.

 

Considering GW's attitude toward canon is apparently very loose, I'm perfectly happy ignoring it and pretending I have no idea what happened there.

 

Seriously. That's bad. Grade school bad.

 

As for the Primarchs - not yet use to Grey Knights destroying this rigid sense of 'combat hierarchy' everyone has, huh? It's not even the worst example if that is the case. An Inquisitor slaying the head-honcho of bloodthirsters in single combat tops both Draigo vs Mortarion, or Aurellian vs Angron. An'ggrath is after-all the kind warp-entity who'd even rip Angron an new cusshole for breakfast. Yet no-one makes a big fuss out of that.

 

100 Grey Knights taking down Angron is fine by me.

 

And I ignore the whole An'ggrath thing since it is, IIRC, in one of the Imperial Armor books, and those are almost always badly not thought out. Forge World does stupid crap even more than GW.

[spu00sed]

I still think that the best approach would have been to put the sword on a striek cruiser with a hundred grey knights and fly into a black hole.

 

The black hole should keep the sword away from anyone forever.

 

If black holes turn out to be Ncron tech then I am sure that they will do their bit to keep the sword save and by save away from the warp, since they don't like warp tech, heck they might even be able to chronoshift it out of time.

 

and the Grey knights are just there incase black holes lead to the warp and the sword needs defending on the long journey out.

[number6]

Ah, but you're mistaking simple military goals from willfully killing people who are on your team. It's one thing to observe the horrors of war, it's another to make them happen cause you're a disgusting monster. Well unfortunately according to Ward, the GK are monsters. No more space paladins for us, now we get to be the team of marines who are no better than traitors, we just happen to be playing for the Imperium... go us...

"[Y]ou're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ;)

[Iron Lord]

But then, this is the Group of Marines that *aren't* Psykers, but Sorcerers.

 

Which is already a warp tainted thing anyway.

 

The term "sorcery" is used in Prospero Burns, by Dan Abnett- and yet is distinct from malificarum- which is considered evil.

 

page 303:

Runepriest Aun Helwintr: "Psyker ability is not a thing of itself. It allows us to draw on a greater power. It is just another path to that same something else. The best path. The safest path. Even then, it's not without its pitfalls. If you'd care to, you may define malificarum as any sorcery that is not performed under the most stringent application of psyker control."

 

So- sorcery that is performed under the most stringent application of psyker control- is permissible to Runepriests.

[Chengar Qordath]

As for using Blood to stop the Blood Gods Courruption, and that being an obviously tainted thing to do, well, it is. :(

 

But then, this is the Group of Marines that *aren't* Psykers, but Sorcerers.

 

Which is already a warp tainted thing anyway.

 

So we might as well say that all Grey Knights are really part tainted, part warp, and not shinning beacons of purity.

 

In which case, why doesn't Crowe use that damned sword? :(

For what my opinion's worth, Crowe's character would actually be a lot less stupid if, instead of the whole "Must Keep the Artifact of Doom Away From Chaos" angle Ward went with, he was just a Grey Knight who chose to use a Daemon Weapon. A GK who opted for a more Radical approach is a lot more plausible, and could actually be an interesting character.

[Daedalus Templarius]

As for using Blood to stop the Blood Gods Courruption, and that being an obviously tainted thing to do, well, it is. :(

 

But then, this is the Group of Marines that *aren't* Psykers, but Sorcerers.

 

Which is already a warp tainted thing anyway.

 

So we might as well say that all Grey Knights are really part tainted, part warp, and not shinning beacons of purity.

 

In which case, why doesn't Crowe use that damned sword? :(

For what my opinion's worth, Crowe's character would actually be a lot less stupid if, instead of the whole "Must Keep the Artifact of Doom Away From Chaos" angle Ward went with, he was just a Grey Knight who chose to use a Daemon Weapon. A GK who opted for a more Radical approach is a lot more plausible, and could actually be an interesting character.

 

Would fit well with their fire vs fire approach. If he is so uncorruptable, he could draw upon the sword's strengths. Would also be much cooler.

 

Unless they changed his rules though, still don't think he is worth it.

[Gentlemanloser]

For what my opinion's worth, Crowe's character would actually be a lot less stupid if, instead of the whole "Must Keep the Artifact of Doom Away From Chaos" angle Ward went with, he was just a Grey Knight who chose to use a Daemon Weapon. A GK who opted for a more Radical approach is a lot more plausible, and could actually be an interesting character.

 

Agreed, but then that wouldn't mesh with his role as head of the ultra puritan purifiers.

 

Now if the Purifiers were actually a small brotherhood of radical GKs...

 

Iron Lord, I see your quote and raise you;

 

There are those who might see contradiction between our abhorrence of the Daemon and our weilding of sorcery. Yes these contradictions live only in the minds of weak men, and we are not accountable to such as they

 

Grand Master Valdar Aurikon (page 13)

 

But the dex itself is the best reference. Page 7, Warriors and Sorcerers;

 

he must embrace the sorceries of the Warp and so battle the Dameon with its own weapons

 

The the dex tries to backtrack the passage after, claiming that the distinction between Psychic Powers and Black Magic is merely persepctive...

 

OK...

[Prathios]

As for using Blood to stop the Blood Gods Courruption, and that being an obviously tainted thing to do, well, it is. ;)

 

But then, this is the Group of Marines that *aren't* Psykers, but Sorcerers.

 

Which is already a warp tainted thing anyway.

 

So we might as well say that all Grey Knights are really part tainted, part warp, and not shinning beacons of purity.

 

In which case, why doesn't Crowe use that damned sword? :confused:

 

He may have been half joking but this is were I fall. We have guys called "purifiers" because of the purity of their souls. Think on that for a minute then look at killing sisters in cold blood. Even if you slay the enemy this price is too high to pay, your soul will be corrupted by it. That's the nature of 40k. There very much is room for "space paladins" the guys who serve the emperor and would rather die than give in to chaos. Using the purity of purpose, purity of soul, and purity of power to slay daemons in the name of the Emperor sounds like an incredible allegory for space paladins. Problem here is that by sacrificing the innocent to accomplish their mission they are not very pure. We have loyalist thousand sons now. The codex even hints that it's only a matter of time now before they start losing knights to chaos.

 

As for everyone worshiping Khorne by killing, totally different situation, not applicable. When was the last time you say Ultramarines slaying the innocent to accomplish their goal? I don't mean collateral damage either, I mean brutally murdering people to incant a ritual in sorcery. How anyone can look at a purifier and then back at blood sacrifice and not go cross eyed, beyond me.

[number6]

How anyone can look at a purifier and then back at blood sacrifice and not go cross eyed, beyond me.

You don't have to accept how the GKs have been defined by the codex. (And clearly you don't. :tu: ) But nevertheless the type of "purity" defined here has nothing to do with morality. It has everything to do with resisting Chaos. You may wish that morality and incorruptibility by Chaos were the same, but the game doesn't make that equivalence.

 

As far as 40K and the Grey Knights are concerned, "incorruptibility" only means you can't become a tool of Chaos. It does not mean you're horrified or soul-tainted in any meaningful way by making morally questionable choices.

 

At least when those choices are done in the name of preventing what is apparently considered to be a greater evil. And as far as the GKs are concerned, Chaos is the ultimate EVIL (in all capital letters). Therefore, anything and everything they do to lessen Chaos's influence is, by definition, less evil and usually outright Good.

 

There's nothing wrong with you enjoying your GKs as "space paladins" if you wish them to be that way. ;) And nothing is stopping you, either. In fact, I agree with you that there are elements of that in their fluff.

 

But if you wish to to so -- if you want your 40K space paladins -- you must at least acknowledge that the current fluff is conceptually consistent and largely at odds with that concept. It isn't defining "purity" and "incorruptibility" the way you want them to be. It is considerably more limited in scope and is not concerned with concepts of morality as generally accepted by 21st century Western civilization.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

If he was an anti greater deamon unit I could understand (like the sort of unit blood thirster have nightmares about that would be cool) like his sword grants him insta kick to the nuts that would be worth seeing in gk versus deamon army matches.

 

But to wave a sword around going 'i am the purest to watch me weild this dirty enemy weapon we loath and hate everything it stand for around' is kinda a slap to the face.

[Prathios]

How anyone can look at a purifier and then back at blood sacrifice and not go cross eyed, beyond me.

You don't have to accept how the GKs have been defined by the codex. (And clearly you don't. :D ) But nevertheless the type of "purity" defined here has nothing to do with morality. It has everything to do with resisting Chaos. You may wish that morality and incorruptibility by Chaos were the same, but the game doesn't make that equivalence.

 

As far as 40K and the Grey Knights are concerned, "incorruptibility" only means you can't become a tool of Chaos. It does not mean you're horrified or soul-tainted in any meaningful way by making morally questionable choices.

 

At least when those choices are done in the name of preventing what is apparently considered to be a greater evil. And as far as the GKs are concerned, Chaos is the ultimate EVIL (in all capital letters). Therefore, anything and everything they do to lessen Chaos's influence is, by definition, less evil and usually outright Good.

 

There's nothing wrong with you enjoying your GKs as "space paladins" if you wish them to be that way. :) And nothing is stopping you, either. In fact, I agree with you that there are elements of that in their fluff.

 

But if you wish to to so -- if you want your 40K space paladins -- you must at least acknowledge that the current fluff is conceptually consistent and largely at odds with that concept. It isn't defining "purity" and "incorruptibility" the way you want them to be. It is considerably more limited in scope and is not concerned with concepts of morality as generally accepted by 21st century Western civilization.

 

See, the strangest thing I find about the direction the newer fluff is going is this attempt to separate chaos from moral corruption. Somehow, Ward has managed to seperate the idea that the greater powers have anything to do with moral corruption. Becoming a tool for chaos in nearly every bit of the fluff has been because the individual lacked the moral purity to do so. Think about it, you relish in the deaths of others, bam you are a servant of Khorne. You enjoy sexual debauchery, boom, you get Slaanesh. You killed your best friend in secret and told his girl that it was a burgler, zing, you get Tzeentch. The ruinous powers have always been the embodiment of the things we label as "wrong" so by doing something that by the overwhelming amount of fluff would consider, wrong, you follow with chaos. I tend to follow Dan Abnett/GW corporate policy for the fluff in 40k; I take it on a case by case basis by weighing it with the rest of the fluff. 40k fluff is not particularly continuitous and so we have to do a lot of fishing to get a good grasp of it. I think most of the fluff in the new dex is a "leave it" option.

 

Anyway, the space paladin thing is an oversimplification. It makes it sound too childish. However, I think the idea of the greatest champions of the Emperor is what the GK have been, and should be. Thinking they should have some grasp of honor doesn't sound like much of a request.

[Iron Lord]

Becoming a tool for chaos in nearly every bit of the fluff has been because the individual lacked the moral purity to do so. Think about it, you relish in the deaths of others, bam you are a servant of Khorne. You enjoy sexual debauchery, boom, you get Slaanesh. You killed your best friend in secret and told his girl that it was a burgler, zing, you get Tzeentch.

 

And killing others without relishing their deaths- purely for "the good of the Imperium"- where does that fall?

 

I'm wondering where Fantasy Flight Games (and maybe further GW novels) will go with the new Grey Knight themes.

 

Will the next Dark Heresy book mention their "forbidden sorceries" put to the use of daemon-fighting?

[Daedalus Templarius]

And killing others without relishing their deaths- purely for "the good of the Imperium"- where does that fall?

 

Sounds like that's where the Inquisition lands.

[Brother Valerius]

See, the strangest thing I find about the direction the newer fluff is going is this attempt to separate chaos from moral corruption. Somehow, Ward has managed to seperate the idea that the greater powers have anything to do with moral corruption. Becoming a tool for chaos in nearly every bit of the fluff has been because the individual lacked the moral purity to do so. Think about it, you relish in the deaths of others, bam you are a servant of Khorne. You enjoy sexual debauchery, boom, you get Slaanesh. You killed your best friend in secret and told his girl that it was a burgler, zing, you get Tzeentch. The ruinous powers have always been the embodiment of the things we label as "wrong" so by doing something that by the overwhelming amount of fluff would consider, wrong, you follow with chaos. I tend to follow Dan Abnett/GW corporate policy for the fluff in 40k; I take it on a case by case basis by weighing it with the rest of the fluff. 40k fluff is not particularly continuitous and so we have to do a lot of fishing to get a good grasp of it. I think most of the fluff in the new dex is a "leave it" option.

 

Anyway, the space paladin thing is an oversimplification. It makes it sound too childish. However, I think the idea of the greatest champions of the Emperor is what the GK have been, and should be. Thinking they should have some grasp of honor doesn't sound like much of a request.

 

I think that it isn't really the case that morality has anything to do with purity. Number6 nicely summed up what I was trying to say. Look at various depictions of paladin types. There are many depictions of pure warriors who do seemingly inhuman things in the pursuit of the good they seek. Men who would burn people alive for straying from the path, that sort of thing. This is an idea which is by no means new, or even new to 40k. The sisters thing is simply another example of that idea, not some abomination that was unheard-of before Ward wrote it down.

[number6]

Anyway, the space paladin thing is an oversimplification. It makes it sound too childish.

No more childish than most of the rest of 40K. As I implied in an earlier post in this topic, "mature" is not an applicable adjective for this game and its fluff. :D

However, I think the idea of the greatest champions of the Emperor is what the GK have been, and should be. Thinking they should have some grasp of honor doesn't sound like much of a request.

This is where I do honestly disagree with what I infer to be the core of your issue. (An opinionated disagreement. Not one based on "fact". This is 40K fluff we're talking about, here! :lol: ) Anyway, I think the case for GK "pure paladinhood" (to distil the concept down to its most basic) was always pretty weak. Even in the DH codex.

 

I say this because the entire concept is based on defending The Emperor's Imperium against ... well, anything and everything. And I have never seen anyone make the argument that defending either the Emperor or the Imperium is a worthwhile cause on moral grounds. All of the 40K fluff I have ever read -- all of the codexes, all the Black Library novels (including the Horus Heresy) -- make it utterly plain that the Emperor's Imperium is about as "glorious" as any repressive and militaristic culture is "glorious".

 

The Emperor is the 40K equivalent of the Kim dynasty in North Korea. And the Imperium is North Korea.

 

Is this worth defending? The Emperor and the govt of the Imperium says it is. And in the most propagandistic of terms instills patriotisim and military fervor in the citizenry. And as all that fluff makes plain, the armies of the Emperor, be they planetary defense forces, the Imperial Guard, the Space Marines -- or even the Grey Knights -- anything labeled a threat is killed forthwith. There are numerous cases in numerous Black Library novels where characters -- "good guy" characters -- notice the positive qualities of some of the alien species they encounter. But they fervently slaughter them wholesale anyway "for the Emperor"!

 

Again, I ask you, where is the positive moral quality in that? :lol: Obi-wan Kenobi's quote is worth repeating here (again).

 

"[Y]ou're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

 

All of this is by way of explaining why I don't consider the newest GK fluff to be contradictory to anything. I have never considered the Emperor or Imperium to be worth defending on moral grounds. I have never considered any of the Space Marines, GKs included, to be "heroic" in any traditional sense. They are, from my "real-world" point of view, willfully delusional, psycopathic monsters. (Just to be complete, there isn't a culture represented by any game army that is "good" in any moral sense. They're all Evil, every last one of them.)

 

If I'm going to relate my real-world moral compass to the game world, I would have to say that it's an abomination that should be destroyed. Anything that works to keep the Imperium functioning and whole is outright Evil (with a capital E).

 

However, I don't actually do that. ;) 40K is a deliciously childish mess of powerful archetypes. Despite everything I just said, I still think of my GKs as "heroic". In the world of 40K, they pass muster. For me, at least. And so I embrace that. It is very 40K to be a True Hero while smearing yourself with innocent blood to invoke a protective, sorcerous spell. That kind of stuff makes me giggle with pleasure. It's so over the top that it becomes a lot of fun to just run with full tilt.

 

Your mileage may vary. :) Such is life.

 

My point in all this is to say: If you truly believe that the GKs were once Good and Pure in the fluff ... you've haven't been paying attention. You've been just as delusional as the characters that make up the game world.

 

There's nothing wrong with that, I hasten to add. The fluff is truly contradictory, and we all have to decide what is or isn't "canon" for ourselves. However, I think it's disingenuous to act Shocked, Shocked I Tell You! when pieces of obvious fluff are brought more forcefully into the foreground. The GKs were always shady characters. They really were. If you or anybody else thought otherwise, it's because you decided to suppress what you didn't want to see.

 

We all do that with "our" 40K. :)

Even in the DH codex, it was outright expressed that the GKs murdered innocent people to prevent the spread of Chaos. Is murdering Sisters of Battle really all that different? I say it isn't.

 

If you want "pure" GKs to be "morally pure" GKs as well, by all means continue to do so. The fluff can support it. Just don't complain that the fluff has actively changed everything. It hasn't. The emphasis has somewhat. But not as much as you might think.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Eh, I think the Ultramarines are pretty "good" guys. They actually care about the citizens of Ultramar and want to keep them safe and prosperous (even though their toil supports the war machine of the Imperium :D)

 

About as good as you can get in the 40k universe, lol.

 

GK and the Inquisition are "do anything and everything possible to eliminate threats to the Imperium, by any means necessary"

[Iron Lord]

The Space Wolves, and the Salamanders, have an element of this as well.

 

Still, as the intro to every book puts it:

 

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."

[Hellios]

I would just like to make a comment about GKs Vs Angron and Rex Vs Anngrath...

 

Rex is pretty badass as Inquisitors go... and as has been mentioned Anngrath is very powerful... but being a daemon this has a downside... The more powerful you are the harder it is to maintain your form outside of the warp... So it is really hard to summon Anngrath but in most cases it would be ven harder to sustain him! Sure it is impressive being able to survive and land a blow against him but if you can do it he is one of those daemons where you will know his name... and where once you start messing with him he will have a hard time holding it together.... Unless the planet is pretty much surrounded by warp energy...

 

Lets look at ANgron... as far as I know at the point where he battled against the GKs he still had his physical body which means he has no need to draw vast amounts of energy from the warp to sustain himself and the forces of chaos built a giant monolith to khorne in the jungles which basically acted as a fast food joint selling warp energy and sustaining all of the daemons on the planet...

[Prathios]

Snip

 

Ah, but I think you and I come from a very different place with regards to the cruelty of the Imperium. Considering that it is the only option for man, aside from the Tau, you would kill everyone rather than live in the Imperium?

 

The Imperium is a horrid place to live, full of hate and restrictions only imaginable to those who lived in Soviet Russia. The fluff does not paint it quite as bleak as North Korea. After all there is a limited degree of freedom in the Imperium, if there were not there would be no vice. North Korea has none of the the underground the Imperium has, because it really is that bad.

 

I think however, that the Imperium in 40k is very much worth defending it is right to do so. It is the only thing that keeps humanity from becoming extinct. The Imperium is as cruel as it is because it has a siege mentality. It has to be harsh because if it was a nice place to live it would have been destroyed thousands of years ago by the incredible and barbaric forces arrayed against it. So basically your choices are: A) Support the cruel but necessary regime of the Imperium or B) Die.

 

I'll choose live until I can't any longer. It may be a nightmare compared to modern first world countries but it's the only way people survive. So I think I stand by my point with the GK. They were a bit of a bright spot in a sea of grime. They didn't need to worry about politics, they took the Emperors light into a sea of daemons. That's what they did. I'll admit that I get that they had to do things from time to time that were hard choices, like purging Armageddon but doing so was necessary. However, ritually sacrificing the sisters is as literal a chaos action as things get. The sisters were not tainted, there was no risk in their survival, they were dutiful servants of the Emperor. Slaying them and using their blood in a ritual is... well, awful. I also find that it was unnecessary, there is no reason for GK to be any different from normal space marines if they have to murder sisters to protect themselves from daemons, isn't that sort of par for the course? I mean, do they carry around a big bin of sisters for when the encounter daemons?

 

"Hey Stern, looks like we got a Bile spewer this time"

"Oh, ok. Throw a sister in the anti-nurgle flayer this time, looks like it's bath time for the Grey Knights."

[Brother Valerius]

I'll admit that I get that they had to do things from time to time that were hard choices, like purging Armageddon but doing so was necessary. However, ritually sacrificing the sisters is as literal a chaos action as things get. The sisters were not tainted, there was no risk in their survival, they were dutiful servants of the Emperor. Slaying them and using their blood in a ritual is... well, awful.

 

I think those are exactly the same type of action. Sacrificing a world so that the Imperium can live is, to me, equivalent to sacrificing some sisters so that the Knights themselves could defeat the current threat, then go on to live and defend the Imperium in the future (with far greater efficacy than the sisters, too). Both are examples of taking an action which is unsavory in the pursuit of a greater good.

[Irbis]

*Sigh* Another Ward hate thread. Except, this one somehow attacks him for things taken from previous Codex?

 

You know, even if next thing Ward writes will be multiplication table, someone will find a way to hate him for it :mellow:

 

They didn't need to worry about politics, they took the Emperors light into a sea of daemons. That's what they did. I'll admit that I get that they had to do things from time to time that were hard choices, like purging Armageddon but doing so was necessary. However, ritually sacrificing the sisters is as literal a chaos action as things get. The sisters were not tainted, there was no risk in their survival, they were dutiful servants of the Emperor. Slaying them and using their blood in a ritual is... well, awful. I also find that it was unnecessary, there is no reason for GK to be any different from normal space marines if they have to murder sisters to protect themselves from daemons, isn't that sort of par for the course?

 

They were killed precisely because they were not tainted. Read that page again - these were last few survivors, of such great purity of faith and soul they were literally living anathema to daemons. Just as pure as GK. They were sacrificed to keep demons at bay, because they, unlike GK, were considered expendable and GK on that mission faced extra serious threat, making them unable to simply hack their way through the daemons. They needed to focus purely on protecting their minds, and the blood kept them unbothered while they performed the banishing ritual. There, plain and simple. Logical, even. Old GK books contained protective items made from bones of martyred saints, how it is different?

 

Same with Crowe's sword - he isn't drawing power from it, he is diminishing its power. He literally cools the rage of daemon and lessens its influence. That's why can't let go to hold anything else - and besides, people who wish he had better weapon clearly don't read his rules, he has Poisoned (4+) Power Weapon, what else do you want? He wounds even T10 targets 50% of the time, plenty good to me. Yes, he could have used Psyker Mastery 2. No, he shouldn't be IC, simply because no one except him can risk going so close to the sword. One time where rule is perfectly fluffy and yet fluffists despise it. Go figure.

 

I also don't have problems with Draigo - Ward stressed futility of his prison by stating (dozen times) that anything he defeats reforms minutes later, yet, people crow about him "killing" and "demolishing" stuff. He wasn't killed yet? He may really be that good, or the Chaos gods are simply using him as a training bag for their daemons... While hoping he will eventually tire and become corrupted. Corrupted Supreme Grand Master would be more powerful servant than even Primarchs (save for Magnus) - so, again, there is plain and simple incentive to keep him alive. Simple explanation, yet critics never stop to reach it *sighs*

 

Grey Knights using Sorcery? Well, duh... Let me call just one item from old Codex: Grimoire of True Names. What it's supposed to be? Phonebook? It really doesn't sound like operating instruction of plasma gun, sorry.

[DinoDoc]

Same with Crowe's sword - he isn't drawing power from it, he is diminishing its power. He literally cools the rage of daemon and lessens its influence.

By taking the most powerful Chaos artifact known to exist into situations where it can be easily recovered by The Enemy?

Grey Knights using Sorcery? Well, duh... Let me call just one item from old Codex: Grimoire of True Names. What it's supposed to be?

A collection of daemonic true names which grant a measure of power over the daemon they belong to. Helpful in banishing them. It isn't a sorcerer's book of spells.

[Prathios]

*Sigh* Another Ward hate thread. Except, this one somehow attacks him for things taken from previous Codex?

 

You know, even if next thing Ward writes will be multiplication table, someone will find a way to hate him for it <_<

 

They didn't need to worry about politics, they took the Emperors light into a sea of daemons. That's what they did. I'll admit that I get that they had to do things from time to time that were hard choices, like purging Armageddon but doing so was necessary. However, ritually sacrificing the sisters is as literal a chaos action as things get. The sisters were not tainted, there was no risk in their survival, they were dutiful servants of the Emperor. Slaying them and using their blood in a ritual is... well, awful. I also find that it was unnecessary, there is no reason for GK to be any different from normal space marines if they have to murder sisters to protect themselves from daemons, isn't that sort of par for the course?

 

They were killed precisely because they were not tainted. Read that page again - these were last few survivors, of such great purity of faith and soul they were literally living anathema to daemons. Just as pure as GK. They were sacrificed to keep demons at bay, because they, unlike GK, were considered expendable and GK on that mission faced extra serious threat, making them unable to simply hack their way through the daemons. They needed to focus purely on protecting their minds, and the blood kept them unbothered while they performed the banishing ritual. There, plain and simple. Logical, even. Old GK books contained protective items made from bones of martyred saints, how it is different?

 

Same with Crowe's sword - he isn't drawing power from it, he is diminishing its power. He literally cools the rage of daemon and lessens its influence. That's why can't let go to hold anything else - and besides, people who wish he had better weapon clearly don't read his rules, he has Poisoned (4+) Power Weapon, what else do you want? He wounds even T10 targets 50% of the time, plenty good to me. Yes, he could have used Psyker Mastery 2. No, he shouldn't be IC, simply because no one except him can risk going so close to the sword. One time where rule is perfectly fluffy and yet fluffists despise it. Go figure.

 

I also don't have problems with Draigo - Ward stressed futility of his prison by stating (dozen times) that anything he defeats reforms minutes later, yet, people crow about him "killing" and "demolishing" stuff. He wasn't killed yet? He may really be that good, or the Chaos gods are simply using him as a training bag for their daemons... While hoping he will eventually tire and become corrupted. Corrupted Supreme Grand Master would be more powerful servant than even Primarchs (save for Magnus) - so, again, there is plain and simple incentive to keep him alive. Simple explanation, yet critics never stop to reach it *sighs*

 

Grey Knights using Sorcery? Well, duh... Let me call just one item from old Codex: Grimoire of True Names. What it's supposed to be? Phonebook? It really doesn't sound like operating instruction of plasma gun, sorry.

 

Well I suppose when Ward stops doing 40k material you can stop reading stuff on his fluff. Then we will both be happy. He should stick to fantasy, he does a good job there, or just write rules and not fluff.

 

I don't need to read anything again and after reading your first sentence I realized that you need to reread my argument because you ignore my point. The GK should have had no need for murdering the sisters in the first place. They shouldn't have been in danger by the daemonic bloodflow in the first place. What is the point of being a GK if you still have to get out your Harry Potter wand and protect yourself. What if there had been no sisters there? Would they have gone to the local Kentucky Fried Sisters and ordered a bucket? They are GK, they should have been able to take care of the problem without resorting to Khornate worship.

 

Crowe's sword should be in a stasis field in the vaults on Titan where it is safe, not carried around the battlefield to be looted by the enemy. (You know those same stasis fields they have live daemons trapped in! Not ones that are already prepackaged in a blade.)

 

Draigo is terribad, he sacked a city of daemons by himself. I'm sorry but while running around in the warp why is that Khorne himself hasn't just squished him like a bug? Why do Lords of Change run from him if he himself was cursed by one!!!! That's the worst kind of inconstancy! On the one hand you have an underpowered showing where he should never have been able to be cursed in the first place, if daemons could curse GK anytime they want there would be none left. Then an overpowered showing follows where you have Draigo laying waste to armies of greater daemons while in their home...

 

And as the above poster said, the Grimoire of True Names was not a book of spells, it was a book of names. It doesn't take Merlin to tell M'Kar you know his name and then say it to him. Knowing the names made them weaker, just as is shown in Prospero Burns. The Daemons know Draigo's name but somehow he still owns them...