Crowe—A giant plot hole?

[Daedalus Templarius]

*Sigh* Another Ward hate thread. Except, this one somehow attacks him for things taken from previous Codex?

 

You know, even if next thing Ward writes will be multiplication table, someone will find a way to hate him for it <_<

 

They didn't need to worry about politics, they took the Emperors light into a sea of daemons. That's what they did. I'll admit that I get that they had to do things from time to time that were hard choices, like purging Armageddon but doing so was necessary. However, ritually sacrificing the sisters is as literal a chaos action as things get. The sisters were not tainted, there was no risk in their survival, they were dutiful servants of the Emperor. Slaying them and using their blood in a ritual is... well, awful. I also find that it was unnecessary, there is no reason for GK to be any different from normal space marines if they have to murder sisters to protect themselves from daemons, isn't that sort of par for the course?

 

They were killed precisely because they were not tainted. Read that page again - these were last few survivors, of such great purity of faith and soul they were literally living anathema to daemons. Just as pure as GK. They were sacrificed to keep demons at bay, because they, unlike GK, were considered expendable and GK on that mission faced extra serious threat, making them unable to simply hack their way through the daemons. They needed to focus purely on protecting their minds, and the blood kept them unbothered while they performed the banishing ritual. There, plain and simple. Logical, even. Old GK books contained protective items made from bones of martyred saints, how it is different?

 

Same with Crowe's sword - he isn't drawing power from it, he is diminishing its power. He literally cools the rage of daemon and lessens its influence. That's why can't let go to hold anything else - and besides, people who wish he had better weapon clearly don't read his rules, he has Poisoned (4+) Power Weapon, what else do you want? He wounds even T10 targets 50% of the time, plenty good to me. Yes, he could have used Psyker Mastery 2. No, he shouldn't be IC, simply because no one except him can risk going so close to the sword. One time where rule is perfectly fluffy and yet fluffists despise it. Go figure.

 

I also don't have problems with Draigo - Ward stressed futility of his prison by stating (dozen times) that anything he defeats reforms minutes later, yet, people crow about him "killing" and "demolishing" stuff. He wasn't killed yet? He may really be that good, or the Chaos gods are simply using him as a training bag for their daemons... While hoping he will eventually tire and become corrupted. Corrupted Supreme Grand Master would be more powerful servant than even Primarchs (save for Magnus) - so, again, there is plain and simple incentive to keep him alive. Simple explanation, yet critics never stop to reach it *sighs*

 

Grey Knights using Sorcery? Well, duh... Let me call just one item from old Codex: Grimoire of True Names. What it's supposed to be? Phonebook? It really doesn't sound like operating instruction of plasma gun, sorry.

 

Hmm, I like this line of reasoning.

 

But yea, Draigo is tragic. The Chaos Gods let him trounce around the Chaos wastes, hoping that one day, one of their demons will make a chink in his armor through which they can invade, and eventually make Draigo one of their champions. Draigo as a champion of Chaos, now that is a frightening prospect.

[Crynn]

It is very true that deamons resurrect and that mortarian may have been 'shot to bits first'

I agree with your post, except for the fact the passage says that Draigo did it "alone and unaided", and apparently carved through Mortarions' bodyguard first. All of which being, I'd imagine, devout Chosen of Nurgle. Which would mean, immune to many attacks, resilient to death in all of its forms, and no slouches in combat either. But Draigo killed them all (alone, remember?), bested a DAEMON PRIMARCH of NURGLE in single combat, and then managed to actually wound said Primarch (who would be so hard to hurt it's not funny) and carve a name onto his heart. Surely in order to do all of this, one would have to have the capabilities of a Primarch?

 

Honestly (in terms of fluff), it is an abomination of a codex. It's full of holes in the fluff, most of which had been already mentioned. But we don't need another "Ward sux!" thread, so suffice to say I wish they'd let someone else write the fluff for once.

 

If the dice in a game can allow my lone stormtrooper (not sgt) to kill a carnifex and then scatter a unit of 15 termagants to capture an objective to win me a game of planetstrike Draigo can carve a name in a primach's heart.

 

So fueled with adrenaline, superhuman abilities and a weapon designed to kill daemons this is completely plausible. Matthew ward for fluff and rules is the most enjoyable codex writer. I can't wait to see if he gets his hands on c:CSM

 

Really? trying to justify fluff with the dice game? Not only are the odds of that happening literally let me say that again Litterally 100,000 to 1 however by your logic Mephiston could destroy ON AVERAGE 10 Monoliths without going down to them, even just hitting one every turn. Does that mean mephiston can destroy worlds with his eye lasers? No. It is not plausable by any pre written GW fluff. If you read anything and I again litterally mean any GW text about the primachs, you will know that 1 marine will never take on a primach, they litterally killed legions themselves. As for Mortarians stats in game, they are again irrelivant and weren't even done by GW, they were second party like forge world I believe, Also the limitations of a stat 10 and precedents like c'tan being easily downed by 10 sternguard show that using the actually game as a source to back up fluff is essentially pointless.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Prathios]

It is very true that deamons resurrect and that mortarian may have been 'shot to bits first'

I agree with your post, except for the fact the passage says that Draigo did it "alone and unaided", and apparently carved through Mortarions' bodyguard first. All of which being, I'd imagine, devout Chosen of Nurgle. Which would mean, immune to many attacks, resilient to death in all of its forms, and no slouches in combat either. But Draigo killed them all (alone, remember?), bested a DAEMON PRIMARCH of NURGLE in single combat, and then managed to actually wound said Primarch (who would be so hard to hurt it's not funny) and carve a name onto his heart. Surely in order to do all of this, one would have to have the capabilities of a Primarch?

 

Honestly (in terms of fluff), it is an abomination of a codex. It's full of holes in the fluff, most of which had been already mentioned. But we don't need another "Ward sux!" thread, so suffice to say I wish they'd let someone else write the fluff for once.

 

If the dice in a game can allow my lone stormtrooper (not sgt) to kill a carnifex and then scatter a unit of 15 termagants to capture an objective to win me a game of planetstrike Draigo can carve a name in a primach's heart.

 

So fueled with adrenaline, superhuman abilities and a weapon designed to kill daemons this is completely plausible. Matthew ward for fluff and rules is the most enjoyable codex writer. I can't wait to see if he gets his hands on c:CSM

 

Really? trying to justify fluff with the dice game? Not only are the odds of that happening literally let me say that again Litterally 100,000 to 1 however by your logic Mephiston could destroy ON AVERAGE 10 Monoliths without going down to them, even just hitting one every turn. Does that mean mephiston can destroy worlds with his eye lasers? No. It is not plausable by any pre written GW fluff. If you read anything and I again litterally mean any GW text about the primachs, you will know that 1 marine will never take on a primach, they litterally killed legions themselves. As for Mortarians stats in game, they are again irrelivant and weren't even done by GW, they were second party like forge world I believe, Also the limitations of a stat 10 and precedents like c'tan being easily downed by 10 sternguard show that using the actually game as a source to back up fluff is essentially pointless.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

 

Yeah that and on the tabletop a guy with a krak missile launcher can kill a Titan eventually. In the fluff, void shields wouldn't even notice a missile of that size. That and they have less armor than a land raider... yikes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Actually GW did create stats for some of the Primarchs but this wasn't officially released to the general public.

 

G :P

[jeffersonian000]

Did everyone not notice that Draigo got ganked into the wrap on the very last day of the 41st millineum (999.M41)? Or that Crowe is already the Champion of the Purifiers in 888.M41? Its all myths and legends, nothing more.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Same with Crowe's sword - he isn't drawing power from it, he is diminishing its power. He literally cools the rage of daemon and lessens its influence. That's why can't let go to hold anything else - and besides, people who wish he had better weapon clearly don't read his rules, he has Poisoned (4+) Power Weapon, what else do you want? He wounds even T10 targets 50% of the time, plenty good to me. Yes, he could have used Psyker Mastery 2. No, he shouldn't be IC, simply because no one except him can risk going so close to the sword. One time where rule is perfectly fluffy and yet fluffists despise it. Go figure.

 

What more do I want? And Attack score to use the Sword with, and for it to not buff my opponent...

 

If he's diminishing it by holding it, what happens when he sleeps? Marines might be able to shut off half thier brain at a time, but they still need to sleep at some point.

 

Again, Crowe should be in some sort of Statis Field/Golden Throne wanna be/Dreadnought Sacofagus, so he can continue to diminish the Sword, for all eternity.

 

Not running onto a battlefield leaidng the Pruifiers where one lascannon to the face means the sword goes ballistic, corrupts all the remaining GKs on the field, and goes right back into the hands of Chaos.

[Oiad]

Not a huge fan of the fluff either. By all means, allow Crowe to be the keeper but to continue putting him in dangerous situations is inevitably going to lead to something disastrous. Much like Draigo it's the kind of silly/hopeless situations GW want to put these heroes in...

 

Actually GW did create stats for some of the Primarchs but this wasn't officially released to the general public.

An officially-backed version of Angron's rules can be found here, as many of you will already know. It's as close as we'll get to having Primarch-level profiles and is quite accurate for a DP, imo. Anyway, why has this come up?..

 

I would just like to make a comment about GKs Vs Angron and Rex Vs Anngrath...

Ay, yet the temperament on Vraks was able to even sustain An'ggrath without problem, the storms themselves said to only withdraw starting with his defeat, and the carnage was bloodied enough to stabilise many daemons of renown. No lesser place would have initiated his arrival in the first place and not once is An'ggrath described as having difficulty maintaining his anchorage in real-space on Vraks. But it is not the weaknesses of daemonhood that are on trial here. It is the comparable feats between combatants. To see David take on Goliath and win it is nothing new in WH40K.

[stoopicus]

*Sigh* Another Ward hate thread. Except, this one somehow attacks him for things taken from previous Codex?

 

You know, even if next thing Ward writes will be multiplication table, someone will find a way to hate him for it :(

 

That's because it would start out like this:

 

"One, being the solitary and unimpeachable number, stood greatest among them all, uncorruptible and mighty in its pure and unified stature. Even the mere attempt to combine it with any other number would be repulsed by breaking the very pinky toes of saints to scatter, innumerable, a number equal to the foes it were crossed with."

 

And then it would go downhill from there.

[KnowThyEnemy]

well, why do you think 1 is the loneliest number? its because its so great and singular, clearly. its lonely at the top :pinch:

[stoopicus]

I have to admit to being a little proud of "...to scatter, innumerable, a number equal to ..." simply because I could easily picture it actually being in the fluff.

[number6]

@Prathios: Firstly, I want to thank you for continuing the discussion. (And so nicely, too, despite our opposing viewpoints. Hopefully others have noticed this. HINT HINT ;) ) This is really fun for me. I hope it has been for you, too.

 

Ah, but I think you and I come from a very different place with regards to the cruelty of the Imperium. Considering that it is the only option for man, aside from the Tau, you would kill everyone rather than live in the Imperium?

Not what I meant. I meant that, from my real-world point of view, the Imperium is morally indefensible and does not deserve to survive. It is truly Evil.

 

I think however, that the Imperium in 40k is very much worth defending it is right to do so. It is the only thing that keeps humanity from becoming extinct. The Imperium is as cruel as it is because it has a siege mentality. It has to be harsh because if it was a nice place to live it would have been destroyed thousands of years ago by the incredible and barbaric forces arrayed against it. So basically your choices are: a) Support the cruel but necessary regime of the Imperium or :P Die.

Again, playing the Devil's Advocate, I would argue that everything you just said is merely propaganda of the State (i.e., Emperor/Imperium). How do we know that mankind would be rendered extinct without the official policies of repression, violence, cruelty, murder, etc.?

 

We don't. All we have is the Imperium's word that this would be the case. They certainly trump up the fear of annihilation enough, don't they? It's no accident that this is precisely how every real-world despotic regime functions.

 

I also find that it was unnecessary, there is no reason for GK to be any different from normal space marines if they have to murder sisters to protect themselves from daemons, isn't that sort of par for the course?

 

Wanting the GKs to be more inherently different (i.e., pure), as opposed to engineered and trained to be different is something I completely understand. The old DH codex was not terribly explicit, though as somebody else mentioned, they did use a number of sorcerous items and rites, including consecrated oils, sacred incense, rites of exorcism, and even a magic tome called the Grimoire of True Names. ;) From my point of view, all that has changed with respect to the previous fluff is that all the magic and sorcery merely hinted at and implied in the older fluff has been brought front and center as a core feature. Personally, I like that aspect a lot. That makes GKs "different from other Marines" in a way I find quite fascinating and rich with possibility. But I empathize with you that this does conflict with other aspects of GK fluff as True Heroes of Inherent Purity.

 

I see no problem with emphasizing that latter fluff -- it is still quite present in the new codex! -- and deemphasizing the sorcery. For your GKs, nothing is stopping you. They can totally be pure heroes! You don't have to succumb to every last iota of what's been written. As it exists it is self-contradictory! (Others here have pointed this out already.) Can GKs be both paragons of virtue and calculating sorcerers? I believe the tension between those archetypes have been put into play on purpose. It makes things more interesting. It makes the GKs multi-dimensional.

 

And it means that they cannot be so easily squeezed into a simple box, such as "Paladin Heroes of the Imperium". ;) They certainly can be that, but now that is merely one part of their story, their mystique. If that is all you want out of them, go to town. But there is more there to plumb for others.

 

"Hey Stern, looks like we got a Bile spewer this time"

"Oh, ok. Throw a sister in the anti-nurgle flayer this time, looks like it's bath time for the Grey Knights."

:( Stolen for my signature!

[stoopicus]

"Hey Stern, looks like we got a Bile spewer this time"

"Oh, ok. Throw a sister in the anti-nurgle flayer this time, looks like it's bath time for the Grey Knights."

:( Stolen for my signature!

 

This has been the most entertaining thread for a while IMO :P

[Gentlemanloser]

We don't. All we have is the Imperium's word that this would be the case. They certainly trump up the fear of annihilation enough, don't they? It's no accident that this is precisely how every real-world despotic regime functions

 

Ignore the Star Gods who want to eat you, or the various Xenos races that want to subjigate you, take your stuff, or agian, eat you. All this is secondary to the all encompasing foe that is Chaos.

 

Regardless of what the Imperium *does*, moral or not, it is there, through the Emperor (although granted now a twisted view of its original), to safeguard all of humanity from the courruption of Chaos.

 

Propaganda, maybe. Certianly there would be a case for it, if we didn't *know* that Chaos does indeed want us. And it's only the Emperor and his genetically engineered super soldiers that can protect us.

 

Those who rule while he is indisposed have certainly ruled for the worst, and the Imperium isn't the place it could, or rather would have been.

 

But it's still the only bulwark we have versus the machinations of the Warp Gods.

 

Destory the Imperium and you offer Humanity up to the warp. And that, should be the only reason necessary to defend it.

[number6]

Well, according to GW's fluff, every last army that is playable can, in the game's fluff, end humanity in one concerted go because they're just that awesomely powerful. How can it be that every race is that powerful yet hasn't managed to do anything but barely scratch the surface of the Imperium?

 

It reminds me how Nazi Germany thought it could swagger into Russia and take Moscow during WWII.

 

The Imperium is big, Big, BIG. So big that it dwarfs the size of all other races combined. Nobody else spans the entire galaxy, not by a long shot.

 

So either all these non-human forces really are that potent ... or, as I tend to think when I apply my "reality glasses" to 40K: they're just not.

 

Are the Star Gods really everywhere? All the time? Constantly devouring? Not even Chaos appears to be doing that. 'Cause if it was well and truly welling up everywhere, there is nothing the GKs and Marines and IG combined could do about it. So that must be some kind of exaggeration, yes?

 

The ultimate question is: how rationally do you want to treat to the 40K universe? I am not trying to make the case that we should. The game would be no fun if we did. It would just fall apart.

 

But I do think that the more rationally we do think about it, the less believable the justification for the Imperium's existence becomes.

[Prathios]

(Keep in mind as I write this I'm under the effects of withdrawal from medication and a little dizzy so I may not make any sense, but here we go!)

 

@#6 - I think that the Necrons or the Tyranids are as big a threat as they are made out to be. Unlike the other "supreme" forces arrayed against the Imperium the Necrons and Tyranids have not brought their full might against the Imperium. Once all the Necrons are awake I think it's pretty much over. Then again when the main body of nids arives it's also over. Then you just have the chaos powers against the Necrons and Nids... Oh and the Orks, because you just can't kill them all.

 

As for the GK I actually don't have issues with them being "sorcerers" it's the way Ward decided to describe this that bothers me. As loathe as I am to make another paladin reference, they do use magic do they not? I think that does make them more interesting, I just don't see the point in ritualistic sacrifice of the Emperors servants, the only time in 40k fluff I've ever read of these events occurring is heretics. I have no issue with them using the tarot or using psychic powers for various other sorcerers ends, I just prefer them to be bastions of honor and purity. I see this as being core to their defense against daemons. Once you start sacrificing people to win the day the daemons come in and start whispering about what else you can sacrifice. According to ward only Crowe himself is immune to daemon whispering (I also think this is silly, all GK should be immune since in 10,000 years none have fallen.)

 

Oh and that signature thing, I had this mental image of like a hot dog stand with sisters in it next to a grill... not sure why :sick:

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, according to GW's fluff, every last army that is playable can, in the game's fluff, end humanity in one concerted go because they're just that awesomely powerful. How can it be that every race is that powerful yet hasn't managed to do anything but barely scratch the surface of the Imperium?

 

I disagree here.

 

As above, the Necrons and Tyrandis, yes. When they are able to focus enough of thier attention to do so.

 

Eldar are too, well, dying (really they're struggling just to remain alive as a race. They have no hope of ever taking down the Imperium). Tau aren't technilogically able yet (Maybe, if they get Warp Travel of some sort). Deldar are too small and remote. Orks keep trying, but dare I say are too stupid. ;)

 

Then there's Chaos. Who have, so far, got the closest (with the Heresy), and some might claim that was just a small part of the big T's plan.

 

Not even Chaos appears to be doing that.

 

Becuase the big E and his Grey Knights are ever present stopping Chaos form doing such! :sick:

[Prathios]

Well, according to GW's fluff, every last army that is playable can, in the game's fluff, end humanity in one concerted go because they're just that awesomely powerful. How can it be that every race is that powerful yet hasn't managed to do anything but barely scratch the surface of the Imperium?

 

I disagree here.

 

As above, the Necrons and Tyrandis, yes. When they are able to focus enough of thier attention to do so.

 

Eldar are too, well, dying (really they're struggling just to remain alive as a race. They have no hope of ever taking down the Imperium). Tau aren't technilogically able yet (Maybe, if they get Warp Travel of some sort). Deldar are too small and remote. Orks keep trying, but dare I say are too stupid. ^_^

 

Then there's Chaos. Who have, so far, got the closest (with the Heresy), and some might claim that was just a small part of the big T's plan.

 

Not even Chaos appears to be doing that.

 

Becuase the big E and his Grey Knights are ever present stopping Chaos form doing such! ^_^

 

You say a small part of big T's plan. I have a problem with this. The one thing people always forget about Tzeentch is that just as many of his schemes hurt him as help him. Tzeentch doesn't really scheme like a comic book super villain. So in the end the "plan" may very well be to the benefit of the Imperium as much as anything.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah, but that's all part of his overall plan! :lol:

 

The big picture.

 

T's only got one desire, one outcome to scheme towards. And if he has to take little, setbacks, to reach the end goal, he will! :P

[AngelofSorrow]

It is very true that deamons resurrect and that mortarian may have been 'shot to bits first'

I agree with your post, except for the fact the passage says that Draigo did it "alone and unaided", and apparently carved through Mortarions' bodyguard first. All of which being, I'd imagine, devout Chosen of Nurgle. Which would mean, immune to many attacks, resilient to death in all of its forms, and no slouches in combat either. But Draigo killed them all (alone, remember?), bested a DAEMON PRIMARCH of NURGLE in single combat, and then managed to actually wound said Primarch (who would be so hard to hurt it's not funny) and carve a name onto his heart. Surely in order to do all of this, one would have to have the capabilities of a Primarch?

 

Honestly (in terms of fluff), it is an abomination of a codex. It's full of holes in the fluff, most of which had been already mentioned. But we don't need another "Ward sux!" thread, so suffice to say I wish they'd let someone else write the fluff for once.

 

If the dice in a game can allow my lone stormtrooper (not sgt) to kill a carnifex and then scatter a unit of 15 termagants to capture an objective to win me a game of planetstrike Draigo can carve a name in a primach's heart.

 

So fueled with adrenaline, superhuman abilities and a weapon designed to kill daemons this is completely plausible. Matthew ward for fluff and rules is the most enjoyable codex writer. I can't wait to see if he gets his hands on c:CSM

 

Really? trying to justify fluff with the dice game? Not only are the odds of that happening literally let me say that again Litterally 100,000 to 1 however by your logic Mephiston could destroy ON AVERAGE 10 Monoliths without going down to them, even just hitting one every turn. Does that mean mephiston can destroy worlds with his eye lasers? No. It is not plausable by any pre written GW fluff. If you read anything and I again litterally mean any GW text about the primachs, you will know that 1 marine will never take on a primach, they litterally killed legions themselves. As for Mortarians stats in game, they are again irrelivant and weren't even done by GW, they were second party like forge world I believe, Also the limitations of a stat 10 and precedents like c'tan being easily downed by 10 sternguard show that using the actually game as a source to back up fluff is essentially pointless.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

You also chose to ignore that last part of what I said. I have read about the primarchs. I know who they are and what they can do. Have you read about Draigo? The man is a beast. The fluff is the background for a dice game. So let's see.

Draigo catches mortarion off guard or maybe Mortarions I is lower. Draigo lands a single blow and his sword starts to banish Mort back to the warp. the daemonbane rule. While Mort is reeling and fading (aka failing his ld test)from the attack Draigo seeks his revenge and carves the name.

People getting angry over his fluff need to relax. It's a great story to a powerful grey knight that's all.

[nurglez]

On the subject of daemon primarchs, sure, there are bonuses to being a daemon, but, aren't greyknights specially built to kill daemons? surely this mixture would alter the balance more then just a marine vs a primarch.

 

I dont mind the fluff that much in this codex. Although I never played with grey knights before this codex, a regular opponent of mine did and we had many a game. The fluff seems to fit in with the rather over the top story line we have going on in warhammer 40k :D

 

Thing I find silly is Draigo making himself a new sword while in the realm of chaos, maybe he had a back up dagger he could increase the size of, like Lion-O from thunder cats :)

[Prathios]

Actually that is the funny part of AngelofSorrow's argument. Against Draigo it would actually have been a downside that Angron was a daemon. Angron would have owned Draigo as a Primarch. As a daemonprince he is actually weaker to Draigo.

[AngelofSorrow]

Actually that is the funny part of AngelofSorrow's argument. Against Draigo it would actually have been a downside that Angron was a daemon. Angron would have owned Draigo as a Primarch. As a daemonprince he is actually weaker to Draigo.

Thank you prathios for seeing part of my argument here. Draigo is a hero of the imperium much like my stormtrooper. Heroes can do amazing things in desperate or harrowing times. Combine that with the fact that draigos whole life has been dedicated to killing daemons of ALL kinds and BAM! Heroic things happen.

[Tessius]

Crowe is a complete badass for taking up so much space on forum threads.

 

I'm not a hardcore forum dweller at all, did any other character cause this much ruckus in recent times?

 

 

As for plot holes, the biggest one is def the fact that he brings the sword to fight with him thus risking it falling back into enemy hands, unless of course he refuses to die no matter what, in that case....well, I guess he is just a complete badass.

[Prathios]

Crowe is a complete badass for taking up so much space on forum threads.

 

I'm not a hardcore forum dweller at all, did any other character cause this much ruckus in recent times?

 

 

As for plot holes, the biggest one is def the fact that he brings the sword to fight with him thus risking it falling back into enemy hands, unless of course he refuses to die no matter what, in that case....well, I guess he is just a complete badass.

 

Naw, that's Thawn... he can't die. Urge to make comment rising... must resist...

[KaosRaptor]

Naw, that's Thawn... he can't die. Urge to make comment rising... must resist...

"It's only a flesh wound!!"? Something like that? Come on, you know you want to... :P

I like how this thread hasn't turned into a "Ward must die!11!!" monstrosity, both sides of the arguement(s) have good points. And AngelofSorrow, admittedly I didn't take into account every Grey Knight's inherent ability to slay Daemons, but even you must surely admit it's a bit of a stretch for one man, Grey Knight or no, to carve through a bodyguard of Nurgle Chosen and then single-handedly beat one of Nurgle's favoured avatars? If one Grey Knight could do that, then why aren't they charging into the Eye of Terror?

 

I'm just confused by the entire thing is all :lol: