Crowe—A giant plot hole?

[Azekai]

Well, according to GW's fluff, every last army that is playable can, in the game's fluff, end humanity in one concerted go because they're just that awesomely powerful. How can it be that every race is that powerful yet hasn't managed to do anything but barely scratch the surface of the Imperium?

 

This is due to plot armor and nothing more. The overall meta-plot of 40k will never move forward in any meaningful way, since we will never be playing WH 50k. Entire sectors have been laid waste by tyrannic fleets, concerted waaaaaghs, and black crusades, but is this going to add up in the end? No. The various races will perpetually be locked in a death struggle choking the life out of each other as the galaxy burns.

 

Forever.

 

The Imperium is big, Big, BIG. So big that it dwarfs the size of all other races combined. Nobody else spans the entire galaxy, not by a long shot.

 

Are you simply refering to space 'controlled?' The Imperium may claim the most physical space, but in sheer numbers humanity is grossly out-matched. There are more orks than men in the galaxy alone (US WD 296).

Add in the multifarious xeno races and traitors and it turns out the Empire of Man is quite out-numbered by daemon hordes, slavering greenskins, tyrannids and zerg.

 

 

Minor quibbles aside, this has been an interesting thread- the ethical exploration of SoB-slaughtering was particularly fun, and I think it all comes down to the ol' teleological v. deontological points of view.

[Prathios]

Well, according to GW's fluff, every last army that is playable can, in the game's fluff, end humanity in one concerted go because they're just that awesomely powerful. How can it be that every race is that powerful yet hasn't managed to do anything but barely scratch the surface of the Imperium?

 

This is due to plot armor and nothing more. The overall meta-plot of 40k will never move forward in any meaningful way, since we will never be playing WH 50k. Entire sectors have been laid waste by tyrannic fleets, concerted waaaaaghs, and black crusades, but is this going to add up in the end? No. The various races will perpetually be locked in a death struggle choking the life out of each other as the galaxy burns.

 

Forever.

 

The Imperium is big, Big, BIG. So big that it dwarfs the size of all other races combined. Nobody else spans the entire galaxy, not by a long shot.

 

Are you simply refering to space 'controlled?' The Imperium may claim the most physical space, but in sheer numbers humanity is grossly out-matched. There are more orks than men in the galaxy alone (US WD 296).

Add in the multifarious xeno races and traitors and it turns out the Empire of Man is quite out-numbered by daemon hordes, slavering greenskins and zerg tyrannids.

 

 

Minor quibbles aside, this has been an interesting thread- the ethical exploration of SoB-slaughtering was particularly fun, and I think it all comes down to the ol' teleological v. deontological points of view.

 

I'm curious as to why you would even write Zerg and scratch it out? Tyranids came first so I'm not sure of the point for doing that.

[Prathios]

Naw, that's Thawn... he can't die. Urge to make comment rising... must resist...

"It's only a flesh wound!!"? Something like that? Come on, you know you want to... :P

I like how this thread hasn't turned into a "Ward must die!11!!" monstrosity, both sides of the arguement(s) have good points. And AngelofSorrow, admittedly I didn't take into account every Grey Knight's inherent ability to slay Daemons, but even you must surely admit it's a bit of a stretch for one man, Grey Knight or no, to carve through a bodyguard of Nurgle Chosen and then single-handedly beat one of Nurgle's favoured avatars? If one Grey Knight could do that, then why aren't they charging into the Eye of Terror?

 

I'm just confused by the entire thing is all :tu:

 

Sorry for the double post, just remembered I forgot to come back to this. You are referring to Angron in the above post? Angron was a servent of Khorne, it was Mortarion who chose to serve Nurgle.

[KaosRaptor]

Sorry for the double post, just remembered I forgot to come back to this. You are referring to Angron in the above post? Angron was a servent of Khorne, it was Mortarion who chose to serve Nurgle.

Oh nah, AngelofSorrow initially quoted my post about my disbelief in Draigo taking on Mortarion and his guard single-handed, and I was replying to that. Kinda confusing, sorry :tu:

In all honesty, I don't know enough about the First War for Armageddon to make comment.

*edit* Actually on topic, on the Purifier page of the codex (pg 31), it mentions that the Chambers of Purity lie at the entrance to a "Shadowy vault of Mount Anarch, the better to ensure that the Purifiers guard against the evil that slumbers therein". Though it's not explicitly mentioned anywhere, and there could be better reasons for it, but maybe Crowe carries the blade to keep it away from whatever is down in the hole? Doesn't explain why he has to use the damn thing, but thought I might throw it out there.

[Gibious]

Yes im probably bending fluff to make it fit. But this is how I see it.

 

Think about it in reverse. A holy innocent who could clense all evil and always saves the day to fly out to space and wink at the Camera. People this powerful can rarely be kept in one place, as they will always eventualy with the time come up with an escape plan or hair pin or whatever.

 

Now to trap this person in a weapon just might not be enough. But to then use that weapon, that hero. To slay and murder everything he stands and cares about. He would probably become very angry. Angry heros dont have enough of a clear mind to come up with an escape plan.

 

Back to the Daemon, being trapped in the sword may not be enough. But using him to directly counter Chaos... Leaves one weakended and angry daemon, probably the best he can do in his rage is either try to kill or entice the weilder.

 

Arnt those the two powers?

 

-Gib-

[Wolf Lord Fenrir]

Then again, maybe they don't care and intend to rebalance with 6th.

 

What terrible design though. "we can't manage to keep things under control and balanced, so we have to rewrite the main rules to sort it out"

 

And judging by the reaction to fantasy (even managed to cool my enthusiasm for the game), I wouldn't bet on Ward being able to balance the 40K rules any better.

[AngelofSorrow]

Naw, that's Thawn... he can't die. Urge to make comment rising... must resist...

"It's only a flesh wound!!"? Something like that? Come on, you know you want to... ;)

I like how this thread hasn't turned into a "Ward must die!11!!" monstrosity, both sides of the arguement(s) have good points. And AngelofSorrow, admittedly I didn't take into account every Grey Knight's inherent ability to slay Daemons, but even you must surely admit it's a bit of a stretch for one man, Grey Knight or no, to carve through a bodyguard of Nurgle Chosen and then single-handedly beat one of Nurgle's favoured avatars? If one Grey Knight could do that, then why aren't they charging into the Eye of Terror?

 

I'm just confused by the entire thing is all :lol:

I'll say it again. This is Kaldor Draigo. An exceptional warrior and sorcerer. Not just any grey knight as you seem to think he is.

 

A man can do heroic things in desperate times. When fueled by rage, adrenaline, faith, and a superhuman body.

I'll admit much like my Stormtroopers heroic deeds this is unlikely for a normal grey knight. Even unlikely, however much less so, for Draigo.

[Spacefrisian]

Even the grim dark Future of 40k holds a shiny light. Humans will survive seeing that there was some fluff and mission in wich a camera crew from the 50th millenium shot during the 41st.

 

Gets you wondering what happened.

[Pavement Artist]

Also, he is a tragic character, forever destined to walk the Chaos wastes, destroying all that is before him, just to see it come back as soon as he moves on.

 

 

See that's the thing, Ward missed a chance to portray Draigo as a truly tragic figure. He should be shorthand for mankind's struggle against chaos, the fact that the very powers he is fighting against are sustained by the race he is protecting. The idea of the master of the Grey knights perpetually locked in a cycle of endless, futile war could have hit a very sombre, almost poetically tragic note.

 

The problem is that Ward's style of writing is very much about the bombastic and the more overblown moments of grandeur. I personally dont dislike it as much as a lot of the hobby community seem to. I think that sort of OTT style has it's place within an army book. They aren't there to shame The Iliad as pieces of literature, they are meant to aggrandize the chosen faction suitably. Such is Ward's style that the focus shifts to all the times Draigo turns it up to 11. If he's burning Nurgle's garden with impunity, then the futility of his actions sort of become lost in translation as we dont get any sense of the character being locked in this terrible, pointless cycle.

[Culebras]

Yes im probably bending fluff to make it fit. But this is how I see it.

 

Think about it in reverse. A holy innocent who could clense all evil and always saves the day to fly out to space and wink at the Camera. People this powerful can rarely be kept in one place, as they will always eventualy with the time come up with an escape plan or hair pin or whatever.

 

Now to trap this person in a weapon just might not be enough. But to then use that weapon, that hero. To slay and murder everything he stands and cares about. He would probably become very angry. Angry heros dont have enough of a clear mind to come up with an escape plan.

 

Back to the Daemon, being trapped in the sword may not be enough. But using him to directly counter Chaos... Leaves one weakended and angry daemon, probably the best he can do in his rage is either try to kill or entice the weilder.

 

Arnt those the two powers?

 

-Gib-

 

Its a thought provoking idea and I applaud your outside the box approach. I'm not sure, though, if the demon blade would be angry at having to kill Demons so much as being angry about not being able to tempt its wielder.

 

Imagine an enchanted weapon that exists only to burn and spread fires. If its locked away and not used, the fires grow hotter and hotter until eventually it sets the very stone and air aflame. The only way to keep the sword from burning down its resting place is to use it in battle , but the sword also burns anyone who wields it, eventually consuming them as well. Whats the solution? put the sword in the hands of someone who can't be burned. Now, substitute the idea of Fire for Chaos, and you have the crowe situation.

 

additionally, I can't help but think back to Lord of the Rings and the idea of the One Ring corrupting everyone it touches but being rendered somewhat powerless in the hands of a Hobbit. For what was supposed to be the "ultimate weapon" of the enemy, it really wasn't that powerful in the hands of Froddo. And yet, like the instance with Crowe, there really wasn't any place for them to hide the one ring. They couldn't bury it or hide it away because it tended to call evil to it.

 

However, at least in Lord of the Rings, they had mount doom to dispose of their evil, all corrupting artifact. Obviously, there doesn't seem to be one of those in 40k. So i guess it makes sense that if your going to be a target, don't be reactive about it. Get aggressive, exploit the fact that demons are going to come chasing after the blade and use it to your advantage. Instead of hiding in a hole somewhere waiting for a demon prince to bring his army for a visit, go out and kick some ass.

[skarn]

I would have liked if Driago was actually Janus, the original GKGM, trapped in the warp helping out his order whenever possible. And Janus is himself

is actually Loken

.

[Prathios]

I would have liked if Driago was actually Janus, the original GKGM, trapped in the warp helping out his order whenever possible. And Janus is himself

is actually Loken

.

 

That is an incredible amount of well wishing. Totally implausible but you can hope I guess.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I would have liked if Driago was actually Janus, the original GKGM, trapped in the warp helping out his order whenever possible. And Janus is himself

is actually Loken

.

 

I'm sorry, but what? The fan-boying for

Loken

is really reaching abysmal depths now... He's already done enough crazy stuff, without having the "achievements" of Draigo tacked on to that. Plus, Draigo can't be Janus, given that he rose through the ranks normally, only to be cursed "recently", and

Loken

rose through the ranks as well. Neither began their careers magically popping in and out of the Warp.

[skarn]

lol, maybe i should have put a tongue in cheek smiley in there, haha

[Black Falcon 88]

Let me make sure I got this correct

mortal Kaldor Draigo > deamon prince primarchs (I guess it could..... happen them deamon princes do get cockey)

GKs are uncoruptable. But this sword that Crowe carries can corrupt them if he drops it? So does that mean that they are corruptable with the exception of Crowe him self? With the sword at least. So in reality if it can be called that Crowe is the only one whos uncorruptable.

 

GK codex is having your cake eating it and asking for more.

[KnowThyEnemy]

i believe the fluff concerning crowe and the sword is more that it corrupts those around it, such as serfs, servitors, regular peoples, etc tec and it draws evil to it, not that it will corrupt the grey knights. under that thought line, youd be asking for some serious problems to keep it on titan, for it would then corrupt all your non-gk support plus draw the attention of bad, bad things.

 

hence why he carries it with him into battle and uses it as a beating stick. in a holster would be plausible, but if its that dangerous its still semi-unattended when not in his hands, so why take the chance on the holster breaking, being in the midst of battle and having it swipped unknowingly etc etc. put it into the hands of your best swordsmen and let him swing away.

 

who knows, maybe he has an apprentice that follows him into battle to rescue the sword should he become incapacitated. just my thoughts on the subject

 

and space marines are hardly "mortal". just because they always die in battle doesn't mean they wouldn't live for a long, longggg time. perhaps not immortal, but hardly on the same level as the rest of humanity, which i believe is the implication of calling draigo "mortal". i believe there is some horus heresy and salamanders fluff to support that thought

 

last comment, i tend to view the grey knights along the lines of "never has one fallen to chaos". that being said, i dont rule out the slim possibility that it could eventually happen. it should be a fight to remain pure, not a given. i believe crowe is described as being immune to temptation, which would imply "regular" grey knights are merely resiting temptation on such a high level already, but not 100% completely immune. 100% is a pretty high percentage, i tend to believe that theres no such thing as a "sure thing". after all, His sons were all made in His image, they should have been perfect too right? :tu:

[Black Falcon 88]

i believe the fluff concerning crowe and the sword is more that it corrupts those around it, such as serfs, servitors, regular peoples, etc tec and it draws evil to it, not that it will corrupt the grey knights. under that thought line, youd be asking for some serious problems to keep it on titan, for it would then corrupt all your non-gk support plus draw the attention of bad, bad things.

 

hence why he carries it with him into battle and uses it as a beating stick. in a holster would be plausible, but if its that dangerous its still semi-unattended when not in his hands, so why take the chance on the holster breaking, being in the midst of battle and having it swipped unknowingly etc etc. put it into the hands of your best swordsmen and let him swing away.

 

If this is the case why not create a bastion world with a company or two of Gks to protect it? I agree titans a bad spot so just toss it and those gks on some barren world off in the middle of no where. Why pick one person to protect it? As for using it sure i can see but just hope that the unite hes with doesnet get massacred by chaos. All souls lost and all gear lost with them.

 

who knows, maybe he has an apprentice that follows him into battle to rescue the sword should he become incapacitated. just my thoughts on the subject

 

and space marines are hardly "mortal". just because they always die in battle doesn't mean they wouldn't live for a long, longggg time. perhaps not immortal, but hardly on the same level as the rest of humanity, which i believe is the implication of calling draigo "mortal". i believe there is some horus heresy and salamanders fluff to support that thought.

As for the mortal idea he can die and would be the end of him. Where as deamons have that whole ill be back rule going for them. Was my original thought line. The idea that if that deamon wanted too he could quite literly let time do its thing and eventualy there wont be that said marine. But when has a deamon been known for its patience. That and this idea that

marines > human

primarchs > marine

deamon prince > marine

grey knight > marine

 

so primarch + deamon prince < Kaldor Draigo

 

I just find it kinda hard to accept some of the fluff given to Gks but who am I to say. And in a game note with the ramp up this codex introduced i'm almost afraid of the next fex dexes. As the ramp up speed is getting to ludicris speed. Pretty soon we may see first turn wins.