syypher Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 After reading Teemoki's thread about SR vs LR and which to take to transport your main CC threat in your army I got to thinking about survivability and viability of both. Most of the time the Land Raider will provide the most reliable and durable transport. Stormraven obviously has a speed advantage over the Raider, however in an AV12 shell. Not the most durable but still alright. I will update with a more thorough analysis that I am writing up with the Stormraven vs Landraider debate on which would be the best to take. For now here is the mathhamemr on the two vehicles barring no cover saves. Also please no dumb comments like "well IG can spam way more las cannons than that." Yes your so smart and knowledgeable about IG but this is just a basis to work off of. If you want to add more math to the calculations have at it yourself. **The math was done vs typical anti-av long range weapony that you will come across in competitive armies. It is also done against an alpha strike of 4 meltas just to throw in another likely situation.** 15 Missile Launcher 8/ AP3 - Typical loadout for SW's at 1850-2000 (longfangs) AV14 (%)/ AV12 (%) Shaken 68/ 91 Stunned 0/ 0 Weapon 24/ 57 Immob 24/ 58 Wreck 0/ 43 Explode 0/ 43 Winner: Land Raider 9 Dark Lances 8/ AP2 - Typical loadout for DE at 1850-2000 (ravagers) AV14 (%)/ AV12 (%) Shaken 76/ 76 Stunned 0/ 0 Weapon 40/ 40 Immob 40/ 40 Wreck 29/ 28 Explode 28/ 29 Winner: Tie 9 Lascannons 9/ AP2 - Typical loadout for IG at 1850-2000 (vendettas) AV14 (%)/ AV12 (%) Shaken 70/ 88 Stunned 0/ 0 Weapon 32/ 54 Immob 32/ 54 Wreck 17/ 44 Explode 17/ 44 Winner: Land Raider 4 Meltas in Effective range 8/ AP1 AV14 (%)/ AV12 (%) Shaken 38/ 32 Stunned 0/ 0 Weapon 28/ 21 Immob 28/ 21 Wreck 28/ 21 Explode 43/ 27 Winner: Storm Raven So only taking into account long range anti-av weaponry vs the vehicle and disregarding speed, capacity, transport capabilities and weaponry the Land Raider wins out. Will analyze the other categories later on. Hope this has been helpful for you. ========================== Transport Capabilities ========================== Land Raider transport capacity: Vanilla - 10: 10 marines or 5 terminators Crusader - 16: 16 marines or 8 terminators Redeemer - 12: 12 marines or 6 terminators Stormraven: 12 marines + 1 Dread or 6 terminators + 1 Dread So as far as transport capabilities we can see that the most terminators we can carry will be with the Crusader variant of the Land Raiders. Stormraven however can bring down the rain with a dreadnought. I've been real busy and the transport section isn't even done but I wanted to post something. No analysis in it just straight facts for now. Sorry but when I get more time I will update a bit better :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarakin Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Interesting work mate, I'd be interested to see the same tests done with LR vs. SR including cover save for going flat out? Cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I would also be interested in the SR with a cover save. I would think that many BA fly their SR at flat out when fully loaded up with cargo to get them ASAP to where they are needed. IC ertainly do so when using a LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The cover saves will be the same as the other results you just halve all the numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrix Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I'm not sure I follow your numbers here. If these figures were %, they should add up to 100 no? What am I missing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I'm not sure I follow your numbers here. If these figures were %, they should add up to 100 no? What am I missing? They represent more then one weapon. Each is only a percentage of getting any given result. Stunned for example never shows up because of the presence of extra armour I assume. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
teemoki Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Ya I think he put extra armor on the vehicles. Smart because I don't think anyone should ever leave home without it on an assault vehicle like those :P Also ya if you want the cover saves information on the Stormraven guys just divide the Stormraven % by 2. Since 4+ cuts % is half ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarakin Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Ok, so the long and the short of it then would be an overall tie with the above if SR was moving flat out. SR winning vs. Lances and Melta, LR winning vs. ML's and Las Cannons, good to know! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Ok, so the long and the short of it then would be an overall tie with the above if SR was moving flat out. SR winning vs. Lances and Melta, LR winning vs. ML's and Las Cannons, good to know! The raider also wins to plasma guns, autocannons, and a whole slew of str 7 weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
syypher Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 Yup that's pretty much it as far as math hammer goes :tu: But taking into account all the other variables I listed will be something I will post soon. Almost finished with a new section I'll post it later tonight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2760655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanfear Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 up :P i´m waiting for the next section ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2764447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
syypher Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 up ;) i´m waiting for the next section ^^ omg There wasn't really any replies so I wasn't going to continue with this thread! :P But since your interested heh...I'll post up tomorrow since it's so late right now heh... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2764452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I would add a rule for transports that if they go flat out and get destroyed, the units they are transporting suffer from much more significant damage than regularly. Perhaps 3D for each unit? I think that would be a bit more fair plus it would really make these units rethink their strategy and count in the risk. A unit shouldn't be able to go flat out and be right in the thick of it by round 1. The same as I believe 1st turn assaulting shouldn't be possible. We're reaching a point where the rule expansion (making things more cool) is outgrowing the basic structure of the game (6" moving, 4'6' table, points limits etc). The ability to go flat out gives the SR a huge advantage. True, its almost impossible to get a regular cover save for the SR because of its flying base... but flat out vs. 1-time smoke launchers? Hm... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2764568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarakin Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 up :) i´m waiting for the next section ^^ omg There wasn't really any replies so I wasn't going to continue with this thread! :) But since your interested heh...I'll post up tomorrow since it's so late right now heh... I hadn't replied as I was waiting for the next part too!! Looking forward to it... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2764643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isryion Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Hmmm, I appreciate the effort, but none of this really surprises me. I look at them both as well priced and the advantages and disadvantages will be much more about the style of play and the fit within an army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2765004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 good point there. everyone mentions the storm raven going flat out and getting acover save, but usually thats only 1 turn no? which results in you being closer to the enemy and more likely to be in range of shorter ranged guns like melta. where as the raider can still move its distance and pop smoke too so therefore having its cover save too... so id still prefer a raider, not that i own either kit nor do i plan on buying either in the forseeable future... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2765045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isryion Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 good point there. everyone mentions the storm raven going flat out and getting acover save, but usually thats only 1 turn no? which results in you being closer to the enemy and more likely to be in range of shorter ranged guns like melta. where as the raider can still move its distance and pop smoke too so therefore having its cover save too... so id still prefer a raider, not that i own either kit nor do i plan on buying either in the forseeable future... We may be going off topic a bit here, but I flat out at different points in the game, and I almost never flat out to get with range of more guns. If I can get in range of a melta by flat out, I can probably get close enough to assault it with what's in the rave by just making a normal move;). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2765146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fury Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 A unit shouldn't be able to go flat out and be right in the thick of it by round 1. The same as I believe 1st turn assaulting shouldn't be possible.You can't dissembark after moving flat out, so nobody is "in the thick of it" or assaulting in round 1. The best chance at a turn 1 assault is Mephiston, and only if you move towards him before his first turn (and he still needs to pass a psy test and have a good run dice roll). The Storm Raven is going to move up to 24" on the first turn and get a cover save. Even if it gets slagged there, the passangers have a good chance of being within charge range at the beginning of 2. If the SR is alive, then it can deliver that squad anywhere you want, and pop smoke. Turn 2 assault potential (destroyed / alive) 30" / 42" The LR can only get 12" down the board on turn 1 and pop smoke. If it gets slagged in the middle of the board, your assault troops have a bit of a hike to get into combat. Or if it survives, move another 12" turn 2 to get the passengers within charge range of a target, no smoke left for danger-close melta shots. Turn 2 assault potential (destroyed / alive) 18" / 30" (sure you might get some extra inches from the disembark move, but it's the same for both so I didn't include it) So the LR needs to be twice as survivable against ranged weapons, it has to move twice to be as effective as the SR. Personally, the SR is the more reliable transport to ensure a turn 2 charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2765208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 that depends on how you view it. as the obove stats point out the long range guns hurt the raven more. the raven moves faster and is therefore in their range for most of the game. therefore they havemore opertuniety to kill the raven. where as the raider is more immune to those weapons and is more indanger of the short range guns, but is in their range for less. usually a meltagun only gets one chance to kill a raider(all it needs) where as a missile launcher has more oppertunietys to kill a raven. really they will probably die at the same point in time, just likely to different ways. the raider will probably distract more firepower from the rest of the units though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229890-mathhammer-lr-v-sr/#findComment-2765345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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