spjaco Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 My only arguement with the Spacewolves stats is that their Weapon Skill is the same as any other vanilla marine chapter. I have a few ideas for other chapters as well. I have to admit that against some armies it seems that the much vaunted Space Marines have gotten severely Nerfed over the years. Point: The Spacewolves homeworld is Fenris, on that planet they fight with primitive/medieval type weapons almost to the exclusion of any other. So they should have a slightly higher WS for their base. Just one point is all I am suggesting. Point: Other SM's could have this option as well, the Blood Angels and Black Templars focus so much on WS that they could benefit this as well so it wouldnt be just show the love for the Wolves type hype. Point: From the time a SW is a Blood Claw he is taught to close with his opponent rapidly and dispatch him with his close in weapon. This would keep that in line with the way the Fluff says they are trained. Point: For that matter give some love to other Chapters such as the Ultra's by letting their love for the codex give them a benefit of preventing them from being out-flanked to their rear, and forcing any unit that makes a succesful flank to their left or right be prevented by being closer than 10 inches, 12 at most. One last idea: If so many characters use Shields/Storm Shields, why not have a Shield Attack? After all the shield historically was used not just for protection but for offense as well. For that matter some chapters could actually benefit from a kind of Shielf Wall Attack/Defense with bonus' adding 1 pt for every five models involved. Just an idea. This would seem to work with the Iron Snakes fluff as well. The Wolves seem to be going this way with Arjac, so give him the extra attack for the shield is all I am saying, heck make it a power weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 space wolves get an extra attack due to having a pistol and ccw, over tact marines, thats good enough to represent them being more skilled in cc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The problem is the statline of Warhammer 40k is very narrow and each "level" of stat encompasses a wide range of effects, strengths, and abilities that cannot be accurately reflected in the game. Imperial Guard Veterans, for example, have the same Ballistic Skill as Space Marines. Or (and my personal favorite), Imperial Guard having the same strength as their Lasguns (laugh as much as you want, by the fluff Lasguns are as accurate and equally as powerful, if not more so, than today's modern assault rifles), meaning they punch as hard as they shoot. In this instance, Weapon Skill 4 encompasses a wide range of skills and abilities, and it's simply unrealistic to think that Space Wolves should get a stat of 5, which is typically reserved for officer/commander level models. A good game that illustrates this is Inquisitor, where the statlines (the upward cap is I think 200, if I'm not mistaken?) more accurately represent things (while I have never played Inquisitor, it's been explained to me in broad strokes). Where the "average" human (represent elite soldiery and Inquisitors)) will have a statline in the 50-75 range, a basic Space Marine's stats reach to the high 150-175. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growler67 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Counter-Attack would also bridge the gap proposed for "closing with the enemy" and entering into CC. "It's factored in". Perhaps you are thinking things in to small a circle (of terms). THink of it on a grander scale. From the Ork or Eldar or other perspective. Not specifically Space Wolves but rather Space Marines. They may have different colors but they are for all intents and purposes the same (stats). Different Chapters will have different "specialties" based on a myriad of influences but they are ALL Astartes. They all trace their roots to the mighty, yet equally matched, Primarchs. Skillful and so on but not truly better than any other in physical capabilities. They weren't clones and so had their differeences, cunning and tactics based on preference and experience but equally the match of eachother. All Space Marines are descendant from them and so they have inherited those traits and qualities. Physical capabilities are identical (with the exception of Special Characters) from any one marine in one Chapter to another from a different one. Their differences are drawn from their experiences, training and inherited traits - cunning, rages and so forth. I think that thoughGW is far from being without fault, that they have the stats pretty well figured at this point (30+ years) of refinement. That is something that doesn't need tweeking unles they decide to do something drastic with the math like going base 10 or something. THEN all the numbers will have to be adjusted. Just don't think that'll happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester262 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 the problem alot of people make is trying to figure out why the fluff isn't represented properly in the rules. it's a simple question to answer, game balance. WS 5 instead of 4 on our grey hunters would be a HUGE advantage. Not to mention the point cost of our models will jump. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I think that, yeah, WS5 would be nice, but it makes them too good. For example, Blood Angels Death Co. are WS 5 with feel no pain and rage. their cost - 20pts per model. A tac marine from any other chapter costs 16-17 pts, and we get Counter attack, Acute senses, AND bolter/BP/CCW, all for 15pts? With all the extras and goodies GH's have, if they had WS5 there is no way they would be under 20pts per model, imo. I think the extra attack for the bp/ccw and Counter Attack are good enough indicators that the SWs are a fightin bunch o' fellers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Weapon skill four is the level of a super human soldier, that enough for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisWolf Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 And with the hit charts the way they are, it is better to have 2 WS 4 attacks than 1 WS 5. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki-LaughingDeath Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 In the first Space Wolf Codex things were very VERY different. The Wolves had a bump in WS but paid for it with a decrease in BS. IIRC the Blood Claws had a WS of 5 with a BS of 3 Grey Hunters WS 5 BS 4 Long Fangs had a WS & BS of 5 and then there were the Wolf Guard with a WS 6 and a BS of 5..... Then came third edition and the revenge of the Plastic.... Space Wolves had lots and lots of toys taken away from them because they were a bit over the top, and sadly you never really saw that many grey hunters or Claws on the table when there was the awesomeness of the Wolf Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 @Loki - The problem is you can't compare any of the stats from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition+, because 2nd Edition had entirely different game mechanics to what we use today (think Necromunda). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki-LaughingDeath Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Yeah and then there were the other mechanics parrying and overwatch for example, but then what they took away still applies today....Wolves could teleport, but that lead to the WG TDA abuse and that I think is the primary reason why we cannot teleport today. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjaco Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 Far enough. Now for a much bigger problem. How come GW has Logan Grimnar as being no longer available on its website? I was just getting ready to get back into modeling in a big way and now this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 It's possible they may be releasing a new Logan Grimnar model, which would explain why the old one is no longer available (they simply sold all the remaining blisters/models and didn't cast up new ones). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growler67 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Could be the same Motus Operendi for unofficial rumor confirmation when a Character model is being resculpted/rereleased. Check your local Game Store and if they were told to send back any current stock as well, then a new model is inbound. Same thing happened before the new SW dex and boxed sets came out. All existing stock was unavailable and the LGS's had to send back whatever they had until the new models and boxes were officially rolled out. Fingers crossed that Logan is scaled better than a giant Squat. His current scale is far too short compared to the rest of the SW line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarapham Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Atleast on the European site Logan is fully available to be bought, so must just be an error of some kind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester262 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 no, no error. My bud owns the LGS in my area and the other day he read off a HUGE list of GW metals that were getting discontinued, including Logan, Ragnar, and Ulric. I do believe it's GW going more toward plastics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarapham Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Yeah sorry you are indeed right, it even states on the GW main page now that they starting a "Finecast" system. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrthstar Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Indeed, too bad they aren't making the plastics cheaper. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/05/gw-...nis-on-way.html Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 If anyone finds out ahead of time what the first range of minis will be, please mind posting them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrthstar Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 If anyone finds out ahead of time what the first range of minis will be, please mind posting them? Posting to a new thread to avoid totally derailing this one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Yeah and then there were the other mechanics parrying and overwatch for example, but then what they took away still applies today....Wolves could teleport, but that lead to the WG TDA abuse and that I think is the primary reason why we cannot teleport today. I believe that it's in White Dwarf 244 where Jervis Johnson said straight up the the no Teleportation and the no Jump Packs (fight on the ground as Russ would) fluff and rules were deliberately contrived nerfs that he invented to offset their many advantages. I've provided the exact quote in an old post on here before. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2760814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 So I've finally gotten around to reading the Grey Knights codex and I'm actually pretty annoyed. I'm sure it can be explained away with extra attacks or special rules, etc, but their WS is retardedly high by comparison to the most well-known CC SM legion. Two of their characters, Draigo and Crowe, have a WS of 7 and 8 respectively. EIGHT! They have their own special rules alongside and augmentative psychic abilities, etc, so when comparing them to Logan and Ragnar, I'm left wondering how can GW get away with this? Tack on halberd initiative boost (making it near impossible to ever get the first attack) and I can't see how Space Wolves can ever be viewed as the CC champions ever again. Hell ..the current strat is to stay OUT of cc with them.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2761404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki-LaughingDeath Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I think that part of the problem is the changes in the design/creative pool employed by Games Workshop. Over the years things have changed, reflecting the attitudes and desires of the different staff members. Some of the changes have been for the better, others have been downright idiotic, the biggest issue that seems to occur is Codex Creep. The idea that wow that last codex we did was great... how can we top that? To me it has never been about power gaming. When I started back in 96 the only competitive Wolf armies that you saw were incredibly broke... I mean c'mon 13 assault cannons Teleporting in and wreaking havoc? Seriously?!? I had enough of that stuff. Now that there are new writers who are wanting to exert their own ideas into the game that we know, they are making changes to suit their tastes and reflect their attitudes. Chaos and Orks are the two best examples of this. Both of them had lots of options taken away from them. This is reflected every time that GW decides to "update" their systems. I for one am a little scared of what happens if they decide to follow in fantasy's footsteps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2761612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisWolf Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 There are also, arguably, other armies besides us that are better at CC. This has been discussed before, so I won't rehash it here. I agree with the sentiment here that we are not the undisputed champions of either shooting or CC, but do both almost as well as anyone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2761672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjaco Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Plastic Logan and Ragnar huh? Hokay, just hope it isnt too long a wait. As far as going to my local GW store, Uh, I am in Lawton OK, and the nearest one is in Dallas. What with gas being four bucks a gallon and having three kids to feed; I think you can figure out just how often that trip gets made. LOL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/229898-my-only-arguement-with-the-spacewolves-is/#findComment-2761689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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