Chaos Marines and airpower

[minigun762]

It just kinda hit me the other day that I can't remember any example of Chaos Marines using any kind of air support beyond the odd Thunderhawk or Stormbird and even thats fairly rare.

 

Chaos, as a whole, has its own interceptors, fighter bombers and heavy bombers just like the Imperium and while I'm sure those are normally manned by mortals, servitors or occasionally daemons but one would think that a Marine with training could do it as well.

Or even have those same aircraft working in support of Marine forces when you're invading a planet. It sure seems easier to get air support from an orbital warship or landing strip then the work involved in landing titans but in comparison titans seem commonplace.

 

It just struck me as an odd gap in tactics and/or equipment.

[TheDarkApostle]

Hell Blades and Hell Talons ;)

 

TDA

[Possessed Marine]

then again, in storm of iron, the iron warriors used deathwind class drop-pods shortly before chaos marine filled pods in typical space marine planetstrike fashion

[Iron Lord]

Hell Blades and Hell Talons ;)

 

TDA

 

But they don't fit the "pure marine" force:

 

Chaos, as a whole, has its own interceptors, fighter bombers and heavy bombers just like the Imperium and while I'm sure those are normally manned by mortals, servitors or occasionally daemons but one would think that a Marine with training could do it as well.

 

In BFG Armada- a chaos marine fleet can replace their normal launch bays with Thunderhawk bays- so those might be air support for a Marine army that eschews the support of other Chaos factions.

[hushrong]

I thought the same thing a few times, like when reading Storm of Iron or Dark Apostle. I think that it is probably overlooked compared to titans. Like it is chalked up to what is more awesome and unique. Do people want fighter planes or a walking destroyer of giant proportions? Or dogfights just aren't too important for the story when CSM are the main focus.

 

I'm sure fighters are employed in invasions and piloted by non-Astartes (hellblades and the like would be akin to stuffing a grown adult into a grocery cart seat for Astartes) and it just isn't mentioned. I think I have only read two BL novels with mention of fighter craft.

 

One thing is for sure, I would love to have that harbinger bomber for my Iron Warriors.

[minigun762]

Hell Blades and Hell Talons ;)

 

TDA

 

Yeah those were the ones I was talking about, in addition to the Harbinger heavy bomber.

 

There is also the Swiftdeath Fighter and Doomfire Bomber from BFG but I haven't seen anything else on either of those.

 

 

Either way though, its odd to have access to a variety of Chaos-specific aircraft in addition to any plundered loyalist ones in the background but not have any real reference to them being used in any significant way.

 

One thing is for sure, I would love to have that harbinger bomber for my Iron Warriors.

 

Exactly my thinking! :lol:

Hard to bring more firepower to the table then a massive bomber. One might call it a flying fortress even.

[Kythnos]

Either way though, its odd to have access to a variety of Chaos-specific aircraft in addition to any plundered loyalist ones in the background but not have any real reference to them being used in any significant way.

 

If I remember it correctly, there are some references to airfights between Chaos and imperial forces in the Siege of Vraks books from FW.

[nurglez]

There is a book by dan abnett, double eagle, which covers dog fighting between imperials and chaos, though the chaos pilots aren't really chaos marines, just chaos guys <_<

 

Its a pretty good book I thought, I guess marines aren't used to fly because, well, they are better up close and in your face, piloting thunder hawks maybe, but I can still see them prefer to use a human/ loyal slave/mutant to pilot the hawks, but being able to pilot if they have to.

[Zeller]

Perhaps it's simply a throwback to the pre-heresy days where the titan legions closely supported the astartes campaigns of compliance. They've been working closely together for 10k years so why start something new now? Add onto that that most astartes assaults are forwarded with orbital attacks and the need for aircraft outside of transports of heavy gunships like the TH/SR is fairly minimal. Boots on the ground.

[Sons of Horus]

I just don't think they would really be focused on much in any story unless they are major characters.

[minigun762]

Perhaps it's simply a throwback to the pre-heresy days where the titan legions closely supported the astartes campaigns of compliance. They've been working closely together for 10k years so why start something new now? Add onto that that most astartes assaults are forwarded with orbital attacks and the need for aircraft outside of transports of heavy gunships like the TH/SR is fairly minimal. Boots on the ground.

 

That is a good point but during those same times they were working side by side with the Imperial Army as well who would have had the same air assets as the current Imperial Navy (roughly). However if you have already blasted the landscape clean from orbital, it might be a moot issue anyway.

 

It doesn't quite add up that Chaos has spent the time and effort to design their own aircraft but they don't play a major role in any action whereas they typically use captured/converted tanks and artillery that do.

[Zeller]

Maybe enemy airbases are destroyed or heavily damaged by surprise attacks from Chaos aircraft or artillery attacks. With enemy airpower at a minimum the Chaos aircraft could be moved into a close air support role for traditional chaos guard forces.

[Hellios]

It makes little sense to use marines to pilot most air-craft... A fighter plane starts to balance things out between a man and a marine... sure the marine still has some advantages (reflexes and so on) but many chaos flyers are controlled by a daemon that becomes the plane itself... I imagine they can react pretty quickly... Then you have things like Hellblades... they are like tie-fighters... cheap to make... easy to make and used in great number... it would be a waste putting marines inside such as craft and it is far better to put in a servitor who is of little use elsewhere and whose loss is of no concern...

 

Marines on the other hand can be useful and pretty hard to replace compared to the fighter and the servitor.

[malika666]

Hmm, I doubt that Chaos forces would operate with exclusively marines, they would mostly have human servants/soldiers/etc as well.

[totgeboren]

Chaos Marines generally seem to follow the old ways of the Legions, even those belonging to warbands. That is, the marines are the spear tip, while non-marine personnel operate things that are now seen as part of the Navy. The same goes for the Titans, who are not crewed by marines either, and things like Super Heavy tanks should not have marine crew either.

Access to non-marine ground crew for mopping-up operations and such should be readily available, but I guess most marines would not enjoy fighting side by side with such lowly scum. They are probably only trusted with holding ground after the glory boys have had their fun.

 

Then again, some of the Legions at least are known for their callous use of human cultists/soldiers/slaves as plain cannon fodder, and the real gap between the fluff and rules is found here, with the lack of cultists. That is a much larger gap than the lack of marines in planes.

[minigun762]

How rare do you think significant air support would be in the average battle then?

 

I'm asking mostly for background information but also because I might look into getting a pair of flyers for support in Apoc games and I like feeling that my choices are "justified".

 

On a related note, does anyone know if the HellTalon and HellBlade are atmospheric and orbital capable like the Thunderbolt/Marauder?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

On a related note, does anyone know if the HellTalon and HellBlade are atmospheric and orbital capable like the Thunderbolt/Marauder?

 

Yes to both for atmosphere, one is a bomber and one is an interceptor. I don't think either can be used in anything higher than low orbit. Swiftdeaths and Doomfires are what are used for extra-atmospheric combat.

[Zeller]

The Thunderbolt and Marauder are aerospace capable? Gah, I would have never expected that from such craft especially with the lack of heat shielding. I suppose they could fly on the edge of space if their engines are anything like the SR's. In Double Eagle weren't they scramjets or something of that nature?

[Iron Lord]

In old fluff, such as the Acceptable Losses short story by Gav Thorpe, there were fully space capable versions of the Thunderbolt and Marauder.

 

In current fluff- they tend to use their rockets purely to get them into and out of atmosphere- and leave the space fighting to Furies and Starhawks.

[minigun762]

In old fluff, such as the Acceptable Losses short story by Gav Thorpe, there were fully space capable versions of the Thunderbolt and Marauder.

 

Thats what I remember reading but then again I haven't read Double Eagle yet. Is it worth it?

 

Being as there is usually alot of overlap between Chaos and Imperial armies and tactics, I was looking in both places to find more information how air combat was conducted. The description of the Dictator Cruiser (Imperial) gave me some clues (from the BFG article)

 

It was originally designed as a stop-gap method to deliver the huge numbers of atmospheric craft that an opposed planetary landing needs. In these situations it is unusual to have an airfield under the control of the invaders, and therefore the Dictator fills the role of the airfield for the bombers and fighters supporting the landings.1

 

This makes it seem like achieving orbital and air superiority would still be a requirement for most invading forces or at a bare minimum is something that needs to be considered.

[Zeller]

Double Eagle is neat. If you're into that sort of thing. :P It's the basic information such as how many las cannon shots each bird has, the maneuvers they can pull, and details on their other systems that piqued my interest. The chaos were not nearly as interesting outside of their mobile base and ground forces but it is a good read. The dogfights toward the end of the book and the imagery during the fights was great. Hopefully the details were as good at painting a picture as I think they were.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

In old fluff, such as the Acceptable Losses short story by Gav Thorpe, there were fully space capable versions of the Thunderbolt and Marauder.

 

In current fluff- they tend to use their rockets purely to get them into and out of atmosphere- and leave the space fighting to Furies and Starhawks.

 

Imperial Armour I states that Marauder can operate extra-orbitally, but it falls short of saying that it can enter or leave, and even less so for the Lightning. I guess we're supposed to infer that in the case of Marauder, they can't enter or exit atmosphere on their own, but if they're already in space they can still function.

[Iron Lord]

In Aeronautica Imperialis, Thunderbolts can "disengage" at the highest height- using their rocket engine.

 

This would fit with the idea of them using a Dictator as their carrier base- since cruisers don't normally enter atmosphere.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

In Aeronautica Imperialis, Thunderbolts can "disengage" at the highest height- using their rocket engine.

 

This would fit with the idea of them using a Dictator as their carrier base- since cruisers don't normally enter atmosphere.

 

I'd buy that theory. Thunderbolt is beefier than Lightning is. :cuss

[Iron Lord]

Lexicanum does say Lightnings are often based on ships, and arrive from orbit.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lightning

 

Can't remember if they can leave that way, though.

 

EDIT: I've checked and the answer is yes- they have the Rocket Boosters rule- they can disengage by leaving atmosphere. And the text about "plummetting from orbit" is in IA1 as well.

 

Maruaders can't though- I'm guessing they don't carry that much fuel or have engines powerful enough.

 

IA1 does say Marauders "are often based on orbiting spacecraft, and can operate in the vacuum of space"- so it's possible that they can enter atmosphere from space, but not leave it.