Space Wolves (TWC) vs. Blood Angels 1500 Batrep

[Prot]

Hey guys,

This time I thought I'd try and do a better batrep....

As promised I'm posting this in response to the help I had with my lists, and how my TWC has evolved over the past few months.

So let me jump into it:

SETUP:

We were playing for 3 objectives, and I think it was Pitched battle? (quarters) My opponent won first turn, and elected to give it to me....

If you want to see my list, it's posted ==>here in this thread which you might be interested in because it has grown outside of simple list advice and includes some awesome advice from a handful of Wolves players much more experienced with ThunderWolf Calvary than I am.

My opponent's 1500 point list was surprisingly 'big'. I'm used to seeing Mephiston, but not tonight! (I guess he's too tired from all the killin')

Here's a picture of the Blood Angels on the table side to give you an idea, but the basics were 2 Blender dreads, AKA Thunderwolf wackers, in drop pods. Lots of large assault squads, 3 Rhino's, a Librarian and Sanguinary guard. Finally a couple of melta speeders for that cannonball effect.

Turn 1/2:

First off I apologize for the pics.... I just used my phone camera.... and you'll also notice my Thunderwolf cavalry look in disarray. That's because the have magnetic arms, and I keep changing their configuration on a weekly basis. They will be the last thing in my list I paint.

So I set up very conservative.... turtled up a bit. I got a good viewing spot for the Longfangs on the second floor of a building. The Rune Priest is centered, and I fire off Tempest's Wrath for the incoming junk. (I really wanted to test this power, and last week against Orks it had no effect naturally. This week would be a good test considering all the deep striking my opponent did.)

My opponent deep struck both blender Dreads in his turn. Rhino's came firing up the right side of the table, and he was trying to maneuver them deep towards my board edge to get lots of cover, from craters, and the two Pods he just dropped in.

Tempest's Wrath has zero effect on all deep striking units this turn.

My Longfangs open up big time, I only hit about 3 times out of both squads, my opponent gets hull down and denies all results! Bah.

Turn 2:

Here comes the charge. Using the buildings my opponent denies me all pen and glancing hits yet again! You can see he is charging up the right side, towards my table edge. I am trying to clog the middle to slow his advance.

I have to keep my Thunderwolves back until those bloody dreads are down. They'll mulch my squad easily. I take a chance and get out of a Rhino and tap one of the Dreads with 2 Melta's blowing it up. This leaves another crater, and my Rhino is essentially blocking him from access to the center table objective.

Tempest's Wrath has no effect in turn 2. ( A squad of marines did come down in a pod, but suffered no casualties.)

Turn 3:

My Rune Priest and Grey Hunters advance to the center of the table to reinforce, and push back the rush. On my left side (picture doesn't show this) his two Speeders drop in, and I melta them to death before driving the rhino up to cover the Priest.

My Longfangs open up fire on the Rhino's again.... causing one to immobilize. Everything else is missed or saved from smoke/hull down by my opponent! That's 3 turns of next to no results from the Longfangs.... someone's gotta wake those boys up. It's looking ugly for me in the middle.

My opponent has his objective (outside the picture) I don't have the one closest to me, but I end up rushing up the little tower to grab it.

Just after this picture was taken, my Thunderwolves see fit to run into the Blood Angel squad in the lower right table edge. I move 6", roll a 3 for fleet. I figure I need to roll a 2 to make it into close combat for difficult terrain, but I roll snake eyes, and fall just short of engaging the squad! Ack.

Tempest's Wrath has no effect in turn 3 (Speeders passed their test).

Turn 4:

Things get bloody. I decide there's nothing left for me to use Tempest's Wrath on, and it has failed me completely anyway. I pull off Jaws, and go for a fister and a meltagun in the squad my Thunderwolves want to assault. The Meltagunner dies to Jaws, the Fister lives!

My Longfangs are sick of doing nothing... One squad shoots at Rhino's; missing again! The other squad fires at his troops threatening the center objective; missing again!

The remaining Blender Dreadnought engages my Grey Hunter squad and annihilates them all before I can do anything. The enemy Librarian has fired off Blood Lance a few times, I fail to block any of it with my Rune Staff.

His squad which was just short of my assault attempt with the Thunderwolves just shoots at me, and puts two wounds on the Thunderwolves! (pistols) He moves in to assault them, and he fails to do any damage, and I kill them.

Turn 5:

I roll for Jaws, it is cancelled by the Librarian's Hood.

My Longfangs.... continue to preform like a 4 day old piece wolf dung, and fail to wound, glance or penetrate anything.

Some of my melta's take down the remaining Dreadnought.

The only thing saving me is I have managed to completely log jam the middle, preventing him from over running my remaining squads. Realizing the game could end this turn, I am forced to turn away my only full Grey Hunter squad. They zoom back to the objective in my corner, and control it.

Unfortunately in the last turn I lost the center objective. I shoot at his unit at the top of the little tower in the center of the table. We ran into a problem here. He was going to lose 2 marines holding on the objective, but he claimed he got 'Feel No Pain' from the Priest in his command squad.

If you measure 6" from the Priests head, to the actual marines in the tower, he can't assist them. However, my opponent said he could measure from the marines to the Priest 'overhead'. He took his tape measure, and in a straight line from overhead, the tape measure did go over the priest (but not touching him). He claimed this is how flamers work (which is true) and he was going to use his Priest power this way as well.

Typically when in floors for supporting close combat, you measure head, to base.... but I said 'sure' so he got to re-roll the saves, saving the squad from any casualties.

The Thunderwolves roared through the remaining marines, and made it to center table to contest, and try to engage another squad. Again, I kill only 3-4 marines with the whole squad. But this time I lose 2 Thudnerwolves. I barely win combat....

He fires off Blood lance, I fail to block it as usual. Big moment here: He targets my Wolflord (instant death shot here) and my Shield comes up big. I roll a 3.

Turn 6

How much bloodier can this get? My Rhino zooms off to contest his objective, but falls short. I back one of my rhino's into the center tower to contest it.

My Rune Priest rolls for Jaws, and is blocked again by the Librarian!

My Longfangs... guess what? Yup, failed to do a single wound, or harm a vehicle again. Disgusting.

The Thunderwolf calvary finish up the assault squad, and slam into the HQ. It is a brutal fight and in this game turn, I lose all but the Wolflord, but he floors the squad, finally doing some real killing!

He takes pot shots at my rhino, but can't destroy it, so I still contest. I am still short of his objective though so he holds it. He tries with the rest of his shooting to get me to run off of my objective but I pass.

The game ends I think in turn 7.

We come to a draw with one objective each, and one contested. If I had one more turn, I believe my Wolflord would have ripped his combated Tacticals apart (holding his only objective) but I had to kill one more guy to free the Lord.

We shook hands on a total blood bath but I couldn't help but feel the game really stunk on my part.

Highlights/Lowlights:

The Rune Priest stunk it up bigtime. He did nothing. The Tempest's Wrath is a total waste in my opinion. It 'can' have an effect but it is so minor, it's negligible at best. Hurricane or even Lightning is far better. Perhaps less defensive, but far better. The Rune Priest also failed to Jaws anything of significance. AND he didn't block a single Librarian power, while getting blocked about 3 turns himself! Wow. Bad luck.

The Longfangs. Time to retire boys. When you're too old to pull a trigger, it's time to hang up the ol' holster and think about playing bingo at the old folks home. This is by far the worst I have ever seen Longfangs perform. If I actually DID hit, my opponent saved everything.

In this game I certainly missed my usual load out of two twin-lascannon Razors. They just fill that void so nice, and get the boyz to high ground faster in Dawn of War scenarios.

The Grey Hunters. They were gold. Essential to the tie game. In fact their melta's did all the work my Longfangs failed to do.

The Thunderwolves and Lord: Bizzarre. As my army was getting rushed, I kept wondering what am I going to do with these guys? I knew speeders were coming in so I tried to protect them from the cannonball deep strike. Then the blender dreads are an absolute nightmare, so I Rhino blocked them off....

It felt like a very fragile unit this game. I kept the blood lance away, and dreads, but it was only halfway through the game that I felt the Thunderwolves could actually engage anything.

I thought the list was solid, but I feel it needs changing again. I'm not sure what, but I do feel VERY lucky to pull off a tie on this one.

[techmarine Azuris]

First of all some really unlucky rolls there tbh, that will influence your opinion her remember that. Im not a fan of TWC as they are rlly overrated, you yourself told us how much preparation you needed until you felt you could charge anything. In my honest opion it felt like you were playing with a 500point handicap for most of the game, however I think if you do tweak ur unit a bit maybe just run TWC no lord? (have seen that before) or use lord plus fenrisian wolves at this points level you will do a lot better, as currently you're considerably cutting down the effectiveness of other units to fit the TWC in. I hope this helps/makes sense :confused:

[Nrthstar]

The ba are still my greatest struggle, more so than any other recent book. But you deserve an ale for this brutal battle. The best thing I've discovered is to add in dreads with my rhinos/razors and thunderwolves. they're the rock to my scissor. In the case of blender dreads, as you mentioned, they eat our twc alive. So instead I intercept with my dccw dread. When he/she runs in with a fist squad at my dread, my twc intercepts that. Dangerous for my twc I know, but I just take the first wounds on my lords fenris wolves.

 

If twc was an elite slot, I would be screwed.

[DV8]

If you want to see my list, it's posted ==>here in this thread which you might be interested in because it has grown outside of simple list advice and includes some awesome advice from a handful of Wolves players much more experienced with ThunderWolf Calvary than I am.

 

It's tough because Thunderwolves are such a hit and miss unit. The kind and amount of upgrades they have available means that the "durability" of the unit and it's damage output are spread too much throughout the squad; this means the moment you start taking casualties, the effectiveness and/or durability of the pack drops drastically.

 

When fielding Thunderwolves, my opinion is that while the unit itself is generally useless (while I'm sure that there are situations where they can be useful, I think they're far too expensive for what they give you), a Thunderlord is the total opposite, and pure gold if built and supported properly. Which leads me to your Lord...

 

In my opinion, taking a Thunderlord makes him an incredibly durable tank, capable of slugging it out with the heavy hitters. And because the mount modifies his base toughness to 5, he can't be instant-killed by anything short of S10 weapons, which makes him ideal to send out to take on the enemy sluggers himself.

 

However, you need to make sure he's built properly to do so, and I think your Lord will struggle in that regard. My recommendation is this set up for your first Thunderlord:

 

Wolf Lord

- Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Thunderwolf Mount, Saga of the Bear

 

I don't remember the points off-hand, but I think he's in the 260-270 range. A complete monster, and will make a downright mess of big things; coupled with base Toughness 5, a 2+/3+ save, and Eternal Warrior, enemies will have to punch through his toughness and save three times to ensure he stays down. He would have made short work of those Dreadnoughts (but I'll get to that later).

 

Your Thunderlord set-up is a sub-optimal infantry killer (or an okay monster-killer at best) and if you take a second Thunderlord (in bigger games), I would equip him thus:

 

Wolf Lord

- Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Thunderwolf, Saga of the Warrior Born

 

Statistically, the Wolf Claw (with re-rolls to wound) will out-perform a Frost Blade pretty much any day of the week, coupled with Warrior Born, will allow you to chew through infantry units like mulch.

 

We shook hands on a total blood bath but I couldn't help but feel the game really stunk on my part.

 

To be fair, a large part of that was just ridiculously bad luck on your part (and I feel your pain, I typically roll about the same). However, I feel that you made some "tactical" errors that may hamstrung your game early on.

 

The Rune Priest stunk it up bigtime. He did nothing. The Tempest's Wrath is a total waste in my opinion. It 'can' have an effect but it is so minor, it's negligible at best. Hurricane or even Lightning is far better. Perhaps less defensive, but far better. The Rune Priest also failed to Jaws anything of significance. AND he didn't block a single Librarian power, while getting blocked about 3 turns himself! Wow. Bad luck.

 

Tempest's Wrath is a very selective power, however it is not one you can gauge based on damage output. While the odds of you causing significant casualties are rather low, where this power shines is in limiting your opponent's options; forcing them to risk jumping into range of Tempest's Wrath can seriously hamper their movement and thus their battle-plan. Some armies just won't care (most marines don't), some it can be potentially devastating (Tau, Daemons, Dark Eldar). Is this the best power to have? Maybe. It certainly isn't the ideal power I would pick in an all-comers list with only one Rune Priest.

 

If you can only field one Rune Priest, for your army I would field him thus:

 

Rune Priest

- Jaws of the World Wolf, Murderous Hurricane

 

Whatever others may think about Jaws, it's an awesome power and against certain armies it's pure gold. There is no reason to hamstring yourself simply because others don't like what options your book allows you. Likewise, Murderous Hurricane is a great way to slow down enemy assault units, and because (if they charge you), forces them to move through dangerous/difficult, they count as charging through cover. In this situation, inviting a charge from one of the Furioso's into your TWC would have allowed you to at the very least strike simultaneous with your Thunder Hammer to take them down.

 

The Longfangs. Time to retire boys. When you're too old to pull a trigger, it's time to hang up the ol' holster and think about playing bingo at the old folks home. This is by far the worst I have ever seen Longfangs perform. If I actually DID hit, my opponent saved everything.

 

You just rolled poorly, and your opponent rolled well for his saves. You need the fire support, I would keep these guys.

 

In this game I certainly missed my usual load out of two twin-lascannon Razors. They just fill that void so nice, and get the boyz to high ground faster in Dawn of War scenarios.

 

Yes, and I would try and find points to get them back. If anything, I recommend dropping the TWC entirely, re-tool your Lord as recommended above, and take Fenrisian Wolves to act as support for your Lord (minimizes damage from incoming fire, and helps him get into combat unscathed...also great combat support against hordes).

 

The Grey Hunters. They were gold. Essential to the tie game. In fact their melta's did all the work my Longfangs failed to do.

 

Yes they are.

 

The Thunderwolves and Lord: Bizzarre. As my army was getting rushed, I kept wondering what am I going to do with these guys? I knew speeders were coming in so I tried to protect them from the cannonball deep strike. Then the blender dreads are an absolute nightmare, so I Rhino blocked them off....

 

It felt like a very fragile unit this game. I kept the blood lance away, and dreads, but it was only halfway through the game that I felt the Thunderwolves could actually engage anything.

 

It's because TWC are fragile, and it isn't difficult to take them down (unlike Nob Bikers, who are cheaper, and while less durable, can field greater numbers, with the same kind of durability across the field because of numbers, FNP, etc.) You also played them far too defensively, forcing your Long Fangs to have to deal with more of the enemy armored threats than they were capable of. This further diluted the effectiveness of your firepower and why you felt your Long Fangs under-performed.

 

Because you were too afraid to throw your Lord/TWC into the grinder against the Dreads, you put the pressure onto your Long Fangs and Grey Hunters to do most of the leg-work and thus, as mentioned above, you basically had 500 points of your army that sat around useless for half the game.

 

 

DV8

[Hear da Lamentation]

When you're too old to pull a trigger, it's time to hang up the ol' holster and think about playing bingo at the old folks home

.

 

Classic ! Very funny. I guess we've all felt that at times. My LF, who usually rock, haven't been able to hit a barn door for the past 3 games. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

 

I have negligable experience againt a lot of army types (BA included) - but I would agree with DV8, you were too defenesive with the TWC. OK, so you don't want to get them shot to hell .... best way to do that is to be in combat. If you want to get away from a unit such as those Dreads who can slaughter your TWC, the best way to do it is to get into combat with something away from those. because it massively increases your move.

 

I would agree with you though (and it came as a surprise to me too when mine got wiped in the 1st round by some genestealers) they are a bit of a glass hammer and need support. BUT, the Lord isn't - he's just nails. (For instance, when the TWC got wiped without being able to attack back, by 2 units of Genestealers, the Lord not only managed to survive, but he killed both units after taking a truly ridiculous number of saves. He ended up losing his last wound being shot by over 50 termigaunts, poo'd out by a Tervigon throughout the game)

 

One question for the Lord with Fenrisian Wolves option .... when you get into combat, if I was facing that, I would attack the wolves, trying to kill the weaker stuff ... win combat decisively and get the Lord to fail morale. So is the tactic to ditch the wolves prior to assault?

[Prot]

However, you need to make sure he's built properly to do so, and I think your Lord will struggle in that regard. My recommendation is this set up for your first Thunderlord:

 

Wolf Lord

- Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Thunderwolf Mount, Saga of the Bear

 

I see the value of this build... but I think it means dropping the squad of Calvary. I really wanted to keep them, but using a Lord of that point value means trimming elsewhere and this list feels so bloody tight at 1500.

 

Your Thunderlord set-up is a sub-optimal infantry killer (or an okay monster-killer at best) and if you take a second Thunderlord (in bigger games), I would equip him thus:

 

Wolf Lord

- Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Thunderwolf, Saga of the Warrior Born

 

I almost like this better for the primary lord in my list. The Saga is really the only thing missing from mine that would have seen him wacking a lot more BA. He was a bit sluggish, but did probably out preform the rest of my list!

If you can only field one Rune Priest, for your army I would field him thus:

 

Rune Priest

- Jaws of the World Wolf, Murderous Hurricane

 

Whatever others may think about Jaws, it's an awesome power and against certain armies it's pure gold.

 

Well my favourite list runs dual priests: Jaws/Hurricane, Hurricane/Lightning. I love hurricane but was urged to try Tempest. Like you said, it's just too situational. Hurricane is going in the list.

 

Yes, and I would try and find points to get them back. If anything, I recommend dropping the TWC entirely, re-tool your Lord as recommended above, and take Fenrisian Wolves to act as support for your Lord (minimizes damage from incoming fire, and helps him get into combat unscathed...also great combat support against hordes).

 

Do you mean take the Fenrisian Wolves and attach him to them? Doesn't that bring mixed toughness rule into effect? Wouldn't that make him a little more squishy?

 

Because you were too afraid to throw your Lord/TWC into the grinder against the Dreads, you put the pressure onto your Long Fangs and Grey Hunters to do most of the leg-work and thus, as mentioned above, you basically had 500 points of your army that sat around useless for half the game.

 

 

DV8

 

Fair enough. I just saw those 2 blender dreads and saw the end of my squad. I still stand by the fact that although it was indeed handicapping my army, by rushing the dreads, those Calvary were dead.

 

I've had too many earlier games where I rushed them too early and kissed them goodbye. I would like to be more aggressive in this game with them, but honestly I couldn't see it having a good end.

 

 

When you're too old to pull a trigger, it's time to hang up the ol' holster and think about playing bingo at the old folks home

.

 

Classic ! Very funny. I guess we've all felt that at times. My LF, who usually rock, haven't been able to hit a barn door for the past 3 games. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

 

One question for the Lord with Fenrisian Wolves option .... when you get into combat, if I was facing that, I would attack the wolves, trying to kill the weaker stuff ... win combat decisively and get the Lord to fail morale. So is the tactic to ditch the wolves prior to assault?

 

Yup, the Longfangs will stay of course. I would have to say this was the worst outing I've ever had with them. Easily the worst.

 

Your question about the wolves and Lord combined is similar to mine above. In fact the scenario you mention is -exactly- how I defeated a Warboss and his retinue without laying a single wound on him. (I combined combat, ignored the Warboss, and put all the attacks I could into a Mob.)

 

The best thing I've discovered is to add in dreads with my rhinos/razors and thunderwolves. they're the rock to my scissor. In the case of blender dreads, as you mentioned, they eat our twc alive. So instead I intercept with my dccw dread.

 

I agree. Halfway through the game I was actually wishing I had a dread. They feel largely useless to me in general but in this game he could have ruined those blender dreads.

[Grimtooth]

First of all some really unlucky rolls there tbh, that will influence your opinion her remember that. Im not a fan of TWC as they are rlly overrated, you yourself told us how much preparation you needed until you felt you could charge anything. In my honest opion it felt like you were playing with a 500point handicap for most of the game, however I think if you do tweak ur unit a bit maybe just run TWC no lord? (have seen that before) or use lord plus fenrisian wolves at this points level you will do a lot better, as currently you're considerably cutting down the effectiveness of other units to fit the TWC in. I hope this helps/makes sense :D

 

And yet his TWC saved him the game.

 

TWC are not a point and shoot unit everytime. The caution that he showed against the blood talon dreads is what makes a good TWC general. Application of precise force at your opponents weakest point is how you win games, especially with TWC.

[Nrthstar]

@Dv8: usually I find myself inline with you, but there is one thing we differ on. Thunderlords and hammers. Now this could just come down to how we use our twc. I agree completely with everything else though to the T. I do of course see the point though.

 

Thunder lord hammer pros:

66% chance per swing of hitting with the hammer with the would tooth is phenomenal. Chance of wound is roughly 55% per swing for almost everything but the absolute toughest creatures out there. (I'm making me doubt my own reasoning these numbers are so good lol)

Con: you go last. In an army where we are almost always at I4, I hate the idea of losing one of my only I5.

 

My love for I5 with strength 5 (33% chance to kill a t5, 44% to kill a t4 per swing meq) probably stems from all my blood angel fights where swinging first on the charge is crucial. I do keep a th/ss in my twc though. In a unit where it is so crucial not to lose a wound, I love the concept of removing some of the incoming attacks.

 

You sir are more than correct at saying this removes my ability to ensure some big boy killiness.

 

Sorry for typos. Swype can be glitchey on my phone.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

@Dv8: usually I find myself inline with you, but there is one thing we differ on. Thunderlords and hammers. Now this could just come down to how we use our twc. I agree completely with everything else though to the T. I do of course see the point though.

 

Thunder lord hammer pros:

66% chance per swing of hitting with the hammer with the would tooth is phenomenal. Chance of wound is roughly 55% per swing for almost everything but the absolute toughest creatures out there. (I'm making me doubt my own reasoning these numbers are so good lol)

Con: you go last. In an army where we are almost always at I4, I hate the idea of losing one of my only I5.

 

My love for I5 with strength 5 (33% chance to kill a t5, 44% to kill a t4 per swing meq) probably stems from all my blood angel fights where swinging first on the charge is crucial. I do keep a th/ss in my twc though. In a unit where it is so crucial not to lose a wound, I love the concept of removing some of the incoming attacks.

 

You sir are more than correct at saying this removes my ability to ensure some big boy killiness.

 

Sorry for typos. Swype can be glitchey on my phone.

 

I'm with North star.

i5 on the Champion and from furious charging Clawnators messes things up, with your unit fighting to full effect, and that reduces the amount of casualties suffered, as their target is rolling less dice, which then allows you to win next phase too.

I cannot see it being any different for Wolves. I would go the Wolf Claw over the Frost Blade, and I'd be surprised if your foes were 'offended' by you counts-as'ing the FB for a WC, if you already have it modelled like that.

 

Howling Banshees are deadly, as much due to i10 as the power swords, imo. Now I know i5 isn't the same thing, but against many units, it is as good as.

Those furious charge Clawnators? If you charge them, you are popping them as easily as an Ultramarines Terminator. With i1, you'd have to wait for those re-rolled, re-rolled attacks to strike simultaneously with the TWC before the ThunderLord swung, even if you charged them. Boo!

 

Don't we all say, when playing Nids or Daemons, get into cover and so reduce them to i1?

You are doing that for your foe by taking the TH/PF.

 

Many units are i4 and under. By keeping i5, you can mess up many units before they even swing. Gold!

[DV8]

True enough, different people prefer different Thunderlord builds, and each of them fit a particular niche.

 

Yes, taking a Fenrisian Wolf + Lord mixed unit does hurt him a bit for wound allocation (assuming they can torrent-fire your unit enough to cause that many wounds), but the only weapons that put out enough shots to torrent-fire are small-medium arms, that will bounce off your Runic Armor. Heavier weapons like Lascannons and Melta/Plasma weaponry don't typically cause enough wounds to wrap around, thus you allocate them to squishy Fenrisian Wolves, allowing your Lord to emerge unscathed.

 

As to whether they combo-charge with the Lord, or the Lord leaves them, it depends on the specific Lord and how he's built, the target, etc. There are times you'll want the extra attacks with the Fenrisian Wolves, and there are times you don't need them.

 

Just so we're clear, I don't believe in mixed armies. If you're taking a Thunderlord, or focusing on TWC, then the army is HEAVILY focused on that (so multiple Thunderlords, or multiple TWC if that tickles your fancy). In a similar principle to DoA, if you're only throwing on or two units into the enemy, then you're diluting the effectiveness of the "theme" because you have a mix of shooty support, mid-range shooting/combat support, and some support combat. Which is fine, but dependent on the specific list and the targets you want your units to go after, will dictate what you give them and how you use them.

 

I see Thunderlords as taken in multiples, each geared towards a specific target. A Hammer/Shield/Bear Thunderlord designed to take out monsters and big beefy targets, and a Wolf Claw/Shield/Warrior Borne designed to take out squishy infantry. Obviously the Hammerlord will struggle against infantry, and the Claw lord will struggle against monsters, but you can't expect an optimized Lord to handle both.

 

If you want monsters, go with what you have (Although swap the FB for WC and Beastslayer for Warrior Borne). If you feel you need a monster killer, go with the Hammer/Shield.

 

 

DV8

[commander alexander]

Drink and feast tonight to make amends with the dice gods! Sorry, but those long fangs have some seriously bad voodoo with the dice. Having ever only gotten to field TWC once, I cannot give you advice, but lately, a skyclaw unit with wolf lord and wolf priest has looked mighty fine to me.

[Nrthstar]

Didn't we have a conversation recently about what to do with bad dice? Don't blame your LFs, blame your dice. Microwave those suckers.

 

Edit: I just realized, I did my mathhammer earlier at work thinking that Thunderlords with frost blade would have a S5 but it'd actually be S6, my bad.

[Godhead]

I tried the hammer lord, and frankly IMO it's the worst gear set up. TWC die to lots of dice, I think it's their biggest weakness, just like terminators. The more dice you have to roll on saves... the more likely they are going to die. You need to minimize the amount of units that can gang up on your unit (whether it is due to small arm shooting or cc). My TWC are big distractions and are used to take out the big gribblies. Grey Hunters are far better for taking out hordes, but my lord can absolutely eat troops with a frost blade or claw (I think which you choose is really personal preference as I have ran both and they both have their pro's an con's I like the frost blade when facing off against high toughness units and dreads).

 

TWC can be decent when run in a number of ways or numbers, but in the end, they are ld 8 and still only have a 3+ armor save. The lord is the real workhorse. The thing is, you have to get him there and then you can't afford to have him dying willy nilly after you've spent 250+ points on him. Spend the extra 35 points and give him eternal warrior. Bad dice happen, ask your long fangs. Your lord also protects your TWC by diverting attacks off them onto himself. If you run the lord with a pack of fen wolves, then all your opponent has to do is dump lots of attacks on to the fragile wolves. This causes you to lose combat and then your lord ends up being escorted off the table.

 

I use TWC to help get my lord to where he needs to be, the TWC are also the token hammer carrier. Losing int 4 isn't a big deal, losing int 5 can cost you combats. If my hammer can stun something big and nasty that has a higher int than my lord, then he (and the rest of the twc) has a chance to finish combat before it gets to attack in the next combat.

 

When I run a squad of TWC without an IC, they still perform the same role, but they just aren't as good at it and find I really miss my lord. The lord needs a retinue and TWC really tend to be the best option. If you don't want to spend the points on the TWC, then consider the Iron priest and cyberwolves. I have had really good experiences with that unit and an IC attached as well, although they are still considerably more fragile than a 3 to 4 man squad of TWC, but definitely cheaper for sure.

 

If you do decide to run fen wolves as an escort, I'd suggest splitting off from the wolves in the movement phase and charge something else with the wolves or use them for a screen. This minimizes the chance of or your lord losing combat because your opponent killed 7 wolves and you only managed to pull off 3 wounds. It's a good way to fail your Ld test. A big con to this tactic is that you have just put your lord in a position for your opponent to exploit his greatest weakness, weight of fire/attacks. He can pile more enemies into your lord forcing you to take and eventually fail saves ultimately killing him.

 

My advice is build your lord, don't skimp on points, and enjoy a good dose of hero hammer. Then build his escort for durability and survival and let the lord do his job.. IE KICK ASS. Build the TWC do their job... to keep the lord safe in order to put him in place to kick ass and keep him there. I like to run a 3 to 4 man TWC squad and two storm shields. I prefer a shield on my hammer simply because he is valuable, everyone else is cannon fodder.

[Grimtooth]

I sometimes wonder about thunderlord tactics I have read and wonder why people can't be more like me.. =P

 

Prot, you are showing up late to the prom really. Granted you still made it but all the hot chicks have already been taken but the ugly chicks need loving too. Hahahahaha!

 

Anyway, since the dex has been out people have had time to figure out the thunderlord gig. People are not being overwhelmed by thunderlords so much anymore as the furry deathstar they were when people were screaming bloody murder about them being overpowered. With time came the tactics to deal with them and likewise came the change of tactics of keeping them alive while still delivering the death they are capable. So you missed out on a very bloody learning curve for our enemies but then again you missed out on the trial and error of thunderlords before you. With the arrival of thunderlord counter tactics, you have to be a smart Wolves player in how you use them now.

 

Don't listen to the hammer/ss hate. Thunderlords are built for survival with the SS and Saga of the Bear, not to mention the natural Toughness 5.

 

Do listen to the FB/WC advice. The battlefield will be soaked in MEQ or less blood/ichor/whatever.

 

Don't fall into the Warrior Born temptation. Saga of Bear is the ideal saga for a hard as nails thunderlord.

 

Screening Fenrisian Wolves only really matter for TWC as your thunderlord should already be at 3++.

 

As has been mentioned don't assault with your Fenrisian Wolves because people have learned to just dump wounds on them for combat resolution.

 

Ideal set-up I run,

 

5-10 screening Fenrisian Wolves

Thunderlord with 2x Fen Wolves attached to 3 or 5 TWC.

Wound allocation games with TWC on weak stuff.

Fen Wolves wargear take screening cover save for strong stuff.

[Voracioustigger]

Ideal set-up I run,

 

5-10 screening Fenrisian Wolves

Thunderlord with 2x Fen Wolves attached to 3 or 5 TWC.

Wound allocation games with TWC on weak stuff.

Fen Wolves wargear take screening cover save for strong stuff.

 

Since you mentioned the Counter-tactics that people have come up with, I thought I'd mention what I think is the most important one... 2nd Floor and higher in ruins.

 

5-10 FWs, a Thunderlord and 3-5 TWC... is running you about 550-700pts, that's about 1/3 of your army in most games. If you play on a table with lots of ruins, the enemy can essentially neutralize your TWC by simply walking up a floor and then targeting everything else, and dealing with the TWC later. They usually won't be able to hide everything up high, but if you're spending 700pts on units that can't touch them, then they can hide enough if they're not fully mech.

 

I think people figured this out when people started using 3 TW Lord + 15 Fenrisian Wolf Deathstars.

[DV8]

That's an interesting point that I hadn't quite considered Ramses, but it makes perfect sense. More and more I'm finding competitive Space Wolf armies rely less on the hammer that is the Thunderlord and more just on bog-standard units like Grey Hunters to win the day (which, as you've discovered, they do amazingly well).

 

@Godhead

 

I understand personal preference for a Frost Blade over a Wolf Claw, but consider the following statistics:

 

A Thunderlord with Wolf Claw is S5, Frost Blade is S6. Assume that Wolf Claw always takes re-rolls to Wound (and with WTN, they both hit on 3's so same odds of hitting). Since you're taking a Storm Shield in the off-hand, there is no bonus for a second close combat weapon (which, in my opinion, is one of the few reasons to take a Frost Blade over a Wolf Claw).

 

Versus T3

Frost Blade (S6) wounds on a 2+, has a 5/6 chance of wounding (83.3%)

Wolf Claw (S5) wounds on 2+ with a re-roll, has a 35/36 chance of wounding (97.2%)

 

Wound to wound basis, Wolf Claw will inflict more wounds. The only reason the Frost Blade will shine here is that it inflicts instant death (but how many good models have T3 and multiple wounds that we can both target them and need to kill them off faster? Of the top of my head, Farseers...)

 

Versus T4

Frost Blade (S6) wounds on a 2+, has a 5/6 chance of wounding (83.3%)

Wolf Claw (S5) wounds on a 3+ with a re-roll, has an 8/9 chance of wounding (88.8%)

 

Versus T5

Frost Blade (S6) wounds on a 3+, has a 2/3 chance of wounding (66.6%)

Wolf Claw (S5) wounds on a 4+ with a re-roll, has a 3/4 chance of wounding (75%)

 

Versus T6

Frost Blade (S6) wounds on a 4+, has a 1/2 chance of wounding (50%)

Wolf Claw (S5) wounds on a 5+ with a re-roll, has a 5/9 chance of wounding (55.5%)

 

Versus T7

Frost Blade (S6) wounds on a 5+, has a 1/3 chance of wounding (33.3%)

Wolf Claw (S5) wounds on a 6+ with a re-roll, has an 11/36 chance of wounding (30.5%)

 

Versus T8

Frost Blade (S6) wounds on a 6+, has a 1/6 chance of wounding (16.6%)

Wolf Claw (S5) wounds on a 6+ with a re-roll, has an 11/36 chance of wounding (30.5%)

 

Statistically, the only time a Frost Blade out-shines a Wolf Claw is versus T3 (for the ability to inflict Instant Death) and T7 (but what in this game is T7? It's mostly T6, and then jumps to T8 for the odd model like Wraithlords and C'tan).

 

Against armor is no comparison, the S6 of the Frost Blade far outshines the S5 Wolf Claw, but if the Lord's primary goal is to hunt armor, why have you not given him a Thunder Hammer?

 

 

DV8

[Prot]

Drink and feast tonight to make amends with the dice gods! Sorry, but those long fangs have some seriously bad voodoo with the dice. Having ever only gotten to field TWC once, I cannot give you advice, but lately, a skyclaw unit with wolf lord and wolf priest has looked mighty fine to me.

 

 

Didn't we have a conversation recently about what to do with bad dice? Don't blame your LFs, blame your dice. Microwave those suckers.

 

I get it about the dice! I get it! lol

 

The problem is they are 'space wolves' dice I bought and they're too expensive for microwaving... or those things would be smeared all over the microwave walls by now.

 

 

I sometimes wonder about thunderlord tactics I have read and wonder why people can't be more like me.. =P

 

Prot, you are showing up late to the prom really. Granted you still made it but all the hot chicks have already been taken but the ugly chicks need loving too. Hahahahaha!

 

Story of my life. The thing is when the codex first came out, I actually loved the idea of TWC. I went the other direction because it seemed everyone was moaning and crying over TWC, and I thought I'd wait until people moved on. I don't think most people play TWC anymore, so here I am... scooping up the ugly chicks by the handful. (I think there are a few hot ones left behind as well.)

 

 

As has been mentioned don't assault with your Fenrisian Wolves because people have learned to just dump wounds on them for combat resolution.

 

Ideal set-up I run,

 

5-10 screening Fenrisian Wolves

Thunderlord with 2x Fen Wolves attached to 3 or 5 TWC.

Wound allocation games with TWC on weak stuff.

Fen Wolves wargear take screening cover save for strong stuff.

 

Fen Wolves taken as wargear question: Does this stop the Lord from joining a squad since he kind of has a 'retinue'? Right now I am screening with Rhino's. and It's working well for two games now. This keeps the one two punch of TWC/Grey Hunters very tight.

 

From what I'm reading I think some of the advice is coming from experience based on your regular opponents which is fine. My most common opponents are Blood Angels (various builds... the dex is so strong, I could be seeing a deep striking landraider army one week, and mephiston the next.) And also Ork builds. Anyone who says Orks are weak needs his melon examined btw.

 

After that, it's common for me to see, Dark Eldar, nids, vanilla marines, daemons in no particular order.

 

The BA almost insist I take a Thunderwolf Lord that strikes at initiative. There are too many units that can just smoke me before I strike.

 

My big debate is Claw over Frost blade? It might be just a question of preference at this point. I like the idea of a giant blade toting Wolflord.... but might try the axe purely for comparison this week.

 

The Saga. In my last 2 games, I've had one shot that could have outright killed me from the Blood Angel sword of Sang-whatever. On the other hand I've done a mental count of how many extra attacks I would have got from Warrior Born and it would have been huge.

 

I think Bear goes better with Hammer, and Warrior goes better with Frost Blade/Claw. I only had a few points so mine got Beastslayer, which is fine for the points which brings me to:

 

The list is bursting at the seams for points. I have no points to go back to my razobacks, which is fine. The Rune Priest is definitely going to Jaws/Hurricane. The Wolflord and retinue can't change that much, because I simply need the points to keep my Grey Hunters firing.

 

The only think I could fathom is losing one Mark of the Wulfen... perhaps a few points here and there, and MIGHT squeeze out Warrior Born.

 

Regardless, I started off with absolutely horrid rolling (that continued all game for the Longfangs) and still eked out a tie.

[Godhead]

I know the stats of the claw vs frost blade, but I often use my TWC to help pop transports when needed. In this instance the frost blade > claw. Also, if it comes down to an objective mission, then try to place your objective counters near the ruins first since you have to place objective markers 12" apart, this prevents your opponent from placing them safely on the 2nd floor. This however is a time where the tried and true grey hunters show up and kick some heads in.

[Prot]

Ah that's a good point Godhead.

 

My opponents are all well aware of the Calvary restriction regarding floors. So that's a great tactic.

 

I agree on the Frost blade because for all intents and purposes, although I agree with DV8 that you're not looking for armour fights with the Lord, it does happen. Either a Dread rushes you unexpectedly, or perhaps you're forced to slam into a tank...?

[Grimtooth]

Ideal set-up I run,

 

5-10 screening Fenrisian Wolves

Thunderlord with 2x Fen Wolves attached to 3 or 5 TWC.

Wound allocation games with TWC on weak stuff.

Fen Wolves wargear take screening cover save for strong stuff.

 

Since you mentioned the Counter-tactics that people have come up with, I thought I'd mention what I think is the most important one... 2nd Floor and higher in ruins.

 

5-10 FWs, a Thunderlord and 3-5 TWC... is running you about 550-700pts, that's about 1/3 of your army in most games. If you play on a table with lots of ruins, the enemy can essentially neutralize your TWC by simply walking up a floor and then targeting everything else, and dealing with the TWC later. They usually won't be able to hide everything up high, but if you're spending 700pts on units that can't touch them, then they can hide enough if they're not fully mech.

 

I think people figured this out when people started using 3 TW Lord + 15 Fenrisian Wolf Deathstars.

 

So 700pts of my army forces my opponent to turtle his army in ruins? Sounds like a pretty good investment for 700pts.

 

This really isn't a valid tactic. I still have 3 packs of GH in Rhinos and a Long Fang pack in a las/plas Razorback to take objectives and/or push them out of ruins. I mean it is like shooting fish in a barrel where my opponent has voluntarily climbed into the barrel.

 

And as you mentioned, this would have to be almost a full foot slogging force as anything not on the second floor is looking to get gibbed by the twc/lord while the GH go after the turtled units, and the Long Fangs provide cover fire.

[Nrthstar]

ram is right, I'd love it if a bunch of footsloggers were forced by my army into the proverbial trees. Objectives? Mine. able to set up exactly how I like? awesome! And at least on my tables, ruins have limited window space for those within to fire out of, I'd get my wolves out of sight and hit them with long fangs, dreads and razors.

 

Any time I force my opponent into a tactic I count it as my advantage. We are a power house at range after all.

[commander alexander]

I do agree with the saga of the warrior being a devil-in-disguise for thunder lords, and bear is you best option. Another point to be made about frost blades or claws, is they could help you survive if you get bogged down by infantry. Don't wast that high initiative! Give your thunder hammers to another TWC model.

 

Or, if you want one to hunt their armor, take an Iron Priest. He can have four T5 cyberwolves, compared to your fenrisian wolves to suck up the brunt of the shooting.

 

Plus, he already has a hammer, and a servo arm. Fully kitted out, this is what he would look like:

-Iron Priest

-(4) Cyberwolves

-TWM

-WTN

-WTT

=170 pts

 

He is relatively cheap, and, although he doesn't have a invulnerable save, he does have a nice 2+ armor save. If you can keep him in cover, he should be very effective when he meets your enemies big gribblies. If not, he was a big, a scary, a cheap distraction for your opponent to shoot at.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Personally I prefer the WC on the Thunderlord (I would use TH with by biker lord when I play him though) - but the extra str with the Thunderlord makes him able to take out MC with a claw - and as has been said, I would use the TH TWC guy to take out the armour. If your worried about that aspect with the lord though - why not take meltabombs for a cheaper option?

 

I don't use any saga on my Lord because I cant find the points for it. I keep him as cheap as I can with wc,ss,ra - runs at about 210 from memory. As for the bear / warrior born debate, it all comes down to how much str 10 stuff is out there which can't be avoided by the rapid moving thunderwolves (like the dreads) ... it would suck BIGTIME to have him instakilled though. Again, I use Bear on my Bikerlord because there's loads of Str8 out there ... but str 10 is fairly rare is it not?

[Prot]

Commander Alex, that's a very cool thought. I never even looked at that guy as a possibility, but he'd pretty much be using the cyber wolves for ablative wounds and would be operating independently. Do you use him with a mounted Lord as well? Or by himself? Or with vanilla TWC?

 

So far I am leaning towards the Lord going Claw, Saga of the Bear, TW mount, Wolftail, Necklace, Shield, and Rune armour. It puts him at an insane 270 points... basically he's Logan. My Logan list is pretty potent. I am wondering how bright this is.... but only one way to find out, I'll field it this week.

 

I'm just not sure how big Bear really is on a weapon at initiative? I mean I have trouble re-calling how many times I could have insta-gibbed but it wasn't that many.

 

Although I'm testing the claw/Bear combo, I'm liking Frost blade/Warrior Born for the long run.... but I will test this out first.

[commander alexander]

I would take him if you need a distraction, so with anything you don't want getting shot at, and if he actually does something, great.