Thought about Blood talons

[Eorek]

Ok... there is 1 thing about my most favorite veichle upgrade that still confuses me...

 

It's hard to explain straight of so let me give you guys an example:

 

Dreadnought equipped with talons charge and assault teminator squad with 3 shields and 2 claws... Mr. dreadnought causes 3 wounds ---> the terminator player chooses to take the saves on his mighty stormshields.

He saves 2 and fails one wound which leads to our dreadnought getting another attack. And lets say that that attack wounds; can he take the save on his shield terminator(one of the 2 that survived) he's already taken a wound (for the 3+ save) or must he save the wound to one of his lighting claw models since the attacks were made at the same initiative?(which would mean that he has to take a save on both his claw termies before he can take the save on his shield termies)

 

Also, if mr dreadnought manages to get 1/more extra attack somehow enough times on a squad... Can they take the hits on already dead models?(since all attacks are made at the same initiative) for example when wiping a ork horde but needing to wound everyone twice to kill that 2 wound nob.

 

Personally I'd play it like : The attacks that he gain from wounds caused are treated like their own initiative stage or level(like striking at a lower initiative)

 

Share what info you got, Discuss, or in some other way enlighten me... Who knows, it might even be FAQed (which Would be semi fail of me for missing)

[angel of justice]

You cant allocated wounds to dead models, if he allocates a wound to a thunderhammer model and it fails then that model dies its no longer responsible for any other wounds. All the wounds are done at same initiative even if these are the ones that are wound because of previous wounds caused.

[Morollan]

Unfortunately, this:

You cant allocated wounds to dead models

 

Contradicts this:

 

All the wounds are done at same initiative even if these are the ones that are wound because of previous wounds caused.

 

The model isn't dead if all wounds are done at the same initiative.

 

I can see where the confusion arises and to be honest, I haven't got a clue what the answer is.

[Firedrake28]

I would think that the extra attacks would effectively be at a different Initiative order for the purposes of removing casualties since there's no other precedent for something like this. I mean, with what other ability does the opponent roll saves and then need to allocate wounds again immediately after? Naturally there's probably no 'right' answer since GW is absolutely terrible at writing rules.

[JamesI]

I would think that the extra attacks would effectively be at a different Initiative order for the purposes of removing casualties since there's no other precedent for something like this. I mean, with what other ability does the opponent roll saves and then need to allocate wounds again immediately after? Naturally there's probably no 'right' answer since GW is absolutely terrible at writing rules.

This is probably the best answer. The dread started at I4, then is at I3.9, 3.8...

[SamaNagol]

I love this forum.

 

This is exactly the correct interpretation. You have to use a RAI solution to stop people allocating wounds to dead models.

 

I'd hate to see someone try and exploit that when facing a BA player in a tournament.

[Eorek]

sadly alot of players in my player group tends to focus on RAW rather than RAI, to so far I've managed to convince people that not even a deathcompany dreadnought is crazy enough to continue attacking the dead orks when a nob with a can-opener is getting closer and closer. ^^

[Morticon]

Then use the rules against them:

 

"For every unsaved wound caused with a Blood Talon...."

 

lets stop here.

 

Go to rule book:

 

pg: 24 (under shooting, but Pg: 39 of combat refers us to here for saves /casualties etc).

 

"For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course this also includes wounds against which no save can be attempted...Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

 

The dreadnought then "immediately" makes extra attacks, which take you through the whole process of wounding again. Since this cycles back to available models, and since the wounded model before was immediately removed, you cant allocate the wound to him.

[Morticon]

As a side note, this is also why we can then allocate to new units in the combat. ie: ICs or multiple assaulted units etc.

[Morollan]

Mort, I tried looking at that section of the rules but then got caught up with the clash of the "immediately remove casualties" and "immediately make another attack" and then my head exploded.

 

True story. <_<

[Morticon]

Mort, I tried looking at that section of the rules but then got caught up with the clash of the "immediately remove casualties" and "immediately make another attack" and then my head exploded.

 

True story. <_<

 

Do both.

What happens after that?

 

"once you have scored a hit with an attack ou must roll again to see if you score a wound..."

 

This means that it is done after that action. So, when the time rolls round to wound, the model has been removed.

[greatcrusade08]

i see it as a second round of combat after the first, so all casualties are cleared then you start again.. however i get hazy with wound allocation.. for example.

5 termies 3 with shield.

 

dread causes 3 wounds and tey are allocated to shields, 2 die one makes his inv.. the dread attacks again this time only 1 shield left.. can he allocate to the shield again or does he have to cycle through the claws first?

[JamesI]

i see it as a second round of combat after the first, so all casualties are cleared then you start again.. however i get hazy with wound allocation.. for example.

5 termies 3 with shield.

 

dread causes 3 wounds and tey are allocated to shields, 2 die one makes his inv.. the dread attacks again this time only 1 shield left.. can he allocate to the shield again or does he have to cycle through the claws first?

consider it basically a new round of combat. He can allocate to the shield.

[Xenith]

Mort, I tried looking at that section of the rules but then got caught up with the clash of the "immediately remove casualties" and "immediately make another attack" and then my head exploded.

 

True story. :lol:

 

Mort is dead on.

 

I think the latest BRB FAQ states that for any actions deedmed to occur at the same time (deepstrike, reserves, farseer powers, etc) the player whose turn it is gets to choose which order they occur in.

 

The best a rules lawyer opponent could do would be to make you take wounds on already dead models.

 

It doesnt matter too much, anyway, as the thunderhammer terminator that was killed is part of the same wound group as the other ones that survived, so are rolled together. Its effectively the same as him allocating a wound to a thundernator that didnt die (i.e., two saves have been failed for the thunderhammer/ss wound group, so two models are removed, as per the rules).

[Korloth Darkwolf]

In my local group we've been playing it as essentially a new combat round at the same initiative level.

 

So roll to attack, then to wound, allocate wounds (to models on the table), make any saves, remove casualties, count up unsaved wounds.

 

Then start again with rolling to attack with the number of unsaved wounds from the last cycle and keep going round and round until there are no unsaved wounds made.

 

Anything that gets to strike at the same initiative level as the dread gets their attack after the cycles finish (even if the models have been removed during the dreads attacks).

 

With wound allocations we've been under the impression that you can allocate normally for each cycle.

 

If this is not the way to handle it then I'd appreciate a nod in the right direction as a DC dread on the charge has been evil to some of the ork and nids units I've been up against and don't want to think I've been unintentionally bending the rules to my advantage.

[knife&fork]

Anything that gets to strike at the same initiative level as the dread gets their attack after the cycles finish (even if the models have been removed during the dreads attacks).

 

I think it's easier if you just roll all of your opponent attacks (those that strike at the same I) and then apply any effects after you've finished working out the dreads attacks. To avoid any confusion about placement or who could attack what.

[Korloth Darkwolf]

That would be easier.

 

We haven't had any real issue with model placement and who can attack what yet. However thats more down to luck than plan!