Daemonbane, Dreadnought Nemesis Doomfists

[Shyft]

Are nemesis doomfists, when wielded by dreadnoughts, also Force Weapons?

 

Also do all Nemesis Force Weapons have the Demonbane special rule, or just Draigo's titansword?

[Souba]

yes the doomfist is a force weapon

 

and yes, every nemesis weapon grants the daemonbane rule. the additional stating for daemonbane on his sword is just to prevent him to get a 2++ in CC if it would be a count as nemesis force sword

[henrywalker]

nemesis doomfists work with dreadnoughts just the same as dreadknights. they are force weapons with daemonn bane which work exactly the same as a dreadnought close combat weapon ie double the users strength to a maximum of 10

 

all NFW have daemon bane

[Grimtooth]

Titansword is just a broken rule right now as Daemonbane per RAW only works with NFW and the Titansword is only a master-crafted force weapon, not a NFW.

[nurglez]

sure per raw daemonbane can only work with NFW's, but if any of my friends tried to argue this with me I'd poke them with the titansword, IN THE EYE!!!

 

Intent is pretty good that draigo's weapon can use daemonbane, and that should be good enough for my friends :lol:

[Angelis Mortis]

sure per raw daemonbane can only work with NFW's, but if any of my friends tried to argue this with me I'd poke them with the titansword, IN THE EYE!!!

 

Intent is pretty good that draigo's weapon can use daemonbane, and that should be good enough for my friends :lol:

 

Don't know how you derived that because it specifically says it has the Daemonbane rule under Titansword, which makes it an exception to the rule.

[RedemptionNL]

Don't know how you derived that because it specifically says it has the Daemonbane rule under Titansword, which makes it an exception to the rule.

 

Aye, he's referring to the Daemonbane rule itself, which only mentions it working on NFW. It's the same deal as in the 'Nid codex where Warp Field's rule only mentions Zoanthrope, so by RAW it wouldn't work on the Doom of Malan'tai, which got FAQed.

 

But it will probably also be in the FAQ, and only the most ruleslawyers of ruleslawyers would play it that way in an actual game.

[Angelis Mortis]

Don't know how you derived that because it specifically says it has the Daemonbane rule under Titansword, which makes it an exception to the rule.

 

Aye, he's referring to the Daemonbane rule itself, which only mentions it working on NFW. It's the same deal as in the 'Nid codex where Warp Field's rule only mentions Zoanthrope, so by RAW it wouldn't work on the Doom of Malan'tai, which got FAQed.

 

But it will probably also be in the FAQ, and only the most ruleslawyers of ruleslawyers would play it that way in an actual game.

 

I get that, but if anything it should mean that the Titansword is indeed a NFW, not that it doesn't have Daemonbane because it clearly says it does. Their method is illogical.

[KnowThyEnemy]

Don't know how you derived that because it specifically says it has the Daemonbane rule under Titansword, which makes it an exception to the rule.

 

Aye, he's referring to the Daemonbane rule itself, which only mentions it working on NFW. It's the same deal as in the 'Nid codex where Warp Field's rule only mentions Zoanthrope, so by RAW it wouldn't work on the Doom of Malan'tai, which got FAQed.

 

But it will probably also be in the FAQ, and only the most ruleslawyers of ruleslawyers would play it that way in an actual game.

 

I get that, but if anything it should mean that the Titansword is indeed a NFW, not that it doesn't have Daemonbane because it clearly says it does. Their method is illogical.

 

the titansword just has the daemonbane special rule. it does not inherit the NFW status because in the daemonbane rule it says it only works for them. the titansword would be the exception to that rule, as stated in its entry. the people who argue it doesnt have daemonbane because its not a NFW are bitter individuals trying to skew the game in their favor. give it a rest and move on. I like food. Broccoli is a food. Therefore, I like Broccoli...no wait...no, no i don't. You can't extrapolate rules just because there is a thread of connection. the Titansword has the rule "Daemonbane". Nothing more, nothing less.

[Angelis Mortis]

Don't know how you derived that because it specifically says it has the Daemonbane rule under Titansword, which makes it an exception to the rule.

 

Aye, he's referring to the Daemonbane rule itself, which only mentions it working on NFW. It's the same deal as in the 'Nid codex where Warp Field's rule only mentions Zoanthrope, so by RAW it wouldn't work on the Doom of Malan'tai, which got FAQed.

 

But it will probably also be in the FAQ, and only the most ruleslawyers of ruleslawyers would play it that way in an actual game.

 

I get that, but if anything it should mean that the Titansword is indeed a NFW, not that it doesn't have Daemonbane because it clearly says it does. Their method is illogical.

 

the titansword just has the daemonbane special rule. it does not inherit the NFW status because in the daemonbane rule it says it only works for them. the titansword would be the exception to that rule, as stated in its entry. the people who argue it doesnt have daemonbane because its not a NFW are bitter individuals trying to skew the game in their favor. give it a rest and move on. I like food. Broccoli is a food. Therefore, I like Broccoli...no wait...no, no i don't. You can't extrapolate rules just because there is a thread of connection. the Titansword has the rule "Daemonbane". Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I agree with you totally, however, I was simply pointing out that it was more likely to be a NFW by logic, than to not have Daemonbane as they were claiming.

[Grimtooth]

Don't know how you derived that because it specifically says it has the Daemonbane rule under Titansword, which makes it an exception to the rule.

 

Aye, he's referring to the Daemonbane rule itself, which only mentions it working on NFW. It's the same deal as in the 'Nid codex where Warp Field's rule only mentions Zoanthrope, so by RAW it wouldn't work on the Doom of Malan'tai, which got FAQed.

 

But it will probably also be in the FAQ, and only the most ruleslawyers of ruleslawyers would play it that way in an actual game.

 

The difference between DoM and Titansword is that not just a NFW with a fancy name like the DoM was just a Zoanthrope with a fancy name. Titansword is clearly labeled as being a "master-crafted force weapon" which clearly makes it not a NFW and thus no direction on how to apply Daemonbane.

 

Crappy rules writing how GW wrote the Daemonbane rule to be exclusive to NFW despite giving Draigo a "master-crafted force weapon" that they wanted Daemonbane to work on.

[Seahawk]

Also, they didn't want him to have a 2+ invulnerable save in close combat.

[Grimtooth]

Also, they didn't want him to have a 2+ invulnerable save in close combat.

 

I think that was their main direction, but then flubbed it all up forgetting that it was not a NFW.

[Brother Valerius]

Also, they didn't want him to have a 2+ invulnerable save in close combat.

 

I think that was their main direction, but then flubbed it all up forgetting that it was not a NFW.

 

Nevertheless, the intent of the rule is clear. Anyone who seriously tries to argue in a game (and not to further a rules discussion, as you are doing) that the weapon doesn't get Daemonbane is only kidding themselves.

[henrywalker]

Also, they didn't want him to have a 2+ invulnerable save in close combat.

 

I think that was their main direction, but then flubbed it all up forgetting that it was not a NFW.

 

 

sorry but what is the difference between a nemesis force weapon and a force weapon with daemon bane?

[XaClocKWorKoX]

there is no difference the point was that draigo could use the NFW rule without getting to be a 2+/2++ model. otherwise it would just be broken

[henrywalker]

well he in essence has a nemesis force titansword which has no special effects. a plain nemesis force sword gives an extra +1

 

i've lost track of the point we were trying to make

 

oh well :tu:

[Doomaflatchi]

Also, they didn't want him to have a 2+ invulnerable save in close combat.

 

I think that was their main direction, but then flubbed it all up forgetting that it was not a NFW.

 

 

sorry but what is the difference between a nemesis force weapon and a force weapon with daemon bane?

Aside from the +1 to Invulnerable saves in close combat, Nemesis Force Weapons also allow ALL of a warrior's attacks to inflict Instant Death - a normal Force Weapon, like the one Draigo wields, only allows him to make ONE unsaved wound cause Instant Death.

[RedemptionNL]

Aside from the +1 to Invulnerable saves in close combat, Nemesis Force Weapons also allow ALL of a warrior's attacks to inflict Instant Death - a normal Force Weapon, like the one Draigo wields, only allows him to make ONE unsaved wound cause Instant Death.

 

Except, on Independant Characters, NFW work just like regular Force Weapons for the purposes of inflicting Instant Death; the all wounds cause Instant Death is only for squads with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. So technically there's no difference.

[Angelis Mortis]

Aside from the +1 to Invulnerable saves in close combat, Nemesis Force Weapons also allow ALL of a warrior's attacks to inflict Instant Death - a normal Force Weapon, like the one Draigo wields, only allows him to make ONE unsaved wound cause Instant Death.

 

Except, on Independant Characters, NFW work just like regular Force Weapons for the purposes of inflicting Instant Death; the all wounds cause Instant Death is only for squads with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. So technically there's no difference.

 

Uhh...no, it says under NFW rule "all wounds inflicted by a units NFW cause instant death". The part about the BoP rule reads to mean you only have to take one test to activate for a unit, but the IC has to take a separate test. Once the IC passes his test, all of his NFW attacks inflict instant death as well.

[RedemptionNL]

Aside from the +1 to Invulnerable saves in close combat, Nemesis Force Weapons also allow ALL of a warrior's attacks to inflict Instant Death - a normal Force Weapon, like the one Draigo wields, only allows him to make ONE unsaved wound cause Instant Death.

 

Except, on Independant Characters, NFW work just like regular Force Weapons for the purposes of inflicting Instant Death; the all wounds cause Instant Death is only for squads with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. So technically there's no difference.

 

Uhh...no, it says under NFW rule "all wounds inflicted by a units NFW cause instant death". The part about the BoP rule reads to mean you only have to take one test to activate for a unit, but the IC has to take a separate test. Once the IC passes his test, all of his NFW attacks inflict instant death as well.

 

Hmm, well that line is referring to the test taken by units with the Brotherhood of Psyker rule (hence the references to 'the test' and 'the unit's NFW'). So given that context, to me that reads that it doesn't apply for IC's (being a permissive ruleset and all), so the NFW for IC just follow the regular force weapon rules for determining Instant Death. Perhaps something for the FAQ thread.

[Angelis Mortis]

Aside from the +1 to Invulnerable saves in close combat, Nemesis Force Weapons also allow ALL of a warrior's attacks to inflict Instant Death - a normal Force Weapon, like the one Draigo wields, only allows him to make ONE unsaved wound cause Instant Death.

 

Except, on Independant Characters, NFW work just like regular Force Weapons for the purposes of inflicting Instant Death; the all wounds cause Instant Death is only for squads with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. So technically there's no difference.

 

Uhh...no, it says under NFW rule "all wounds inflicted by a units NFW cause instant death". The part about the BoP rule reads to mean you only have to take one test to activate for a unit, but the IC has to take a separate test. Once the IC passes his test, all of his NFW attacks inflict instant death as well.

 

Hmm, well that line is referring to the test taken by units with the Brotherhood of Psyker rule (hence the references to 'the test' and 'the unit's NFW'). So given that context, to me that reads that it doesn't apply for IC's (being a permissive ruleset and all), so the NFW for IC just follow the regular force weapon rules for determining Instant Death. Perhaps something for the FAQ thread.

 

Well not exactly, let me help break it down so you see what I'm getting at.

 

It specifically says "Note that a unit of GK with the BoP rule needs only to take a single Psychic test to activate all of its force weapons (although ICs must still roll separately)."

 

All that is saying is BoP activates all except for ICs attached, which must activate individually. Then it goes on to the next part which is a completely new thought.

 

"If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's NFW that phase inflict instant death."

 

So, this concludes that while the unit and IC take a separate activation test, all NFW in the unit cause Instant Death. Note, ICs are considered separate units during the assault. So, if you removed the unit the IC is attached to, the rule still makes sense as the IC is his own unit. This also applies while he is attached as he is still his own unit. It was simply stating that activations are separate, but effects are the same.

[RedemptionNL]

Aye, I understood what you were getting at, I just don't agree. I think the line "If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's NFW that phase inflict instant death" specifically references the line before it, as it mentions the test and the unit, and not, for instance, a unit. Just reading the line as is, is taking it out of the context of the collective activation of a unit's NFW with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

 

Agree to disagree I suppose. :lol:

[XaClocKWorKoX]

you are all over looking this. lets break this down i have the book next to me

 

pg. 39: The Titansword. The Titansword is a master-crafted force weapon with the daemonbane rule. ( see page 54 ) Additionally, any close combat attackes that Draigo directs against a unit that contains one more daemons or Psykers are resolved at Strenght 10

 

ALRRRIGHT lets goto page 54

 

I am going to write BOTH entries on Nemesis Force Weapons.

 

Force Weapons: All nemeis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40k rulesbook. Note that a unit of grey Knights with the brotherhood of the pysker special rule needs to take only single psyhic test to " activate" all of its force weapons ( although IC must still role separately ) if the test is passed, all wounds caused by the units NFW that phase inflict instand death if the unit is striking at intitative orders, take the psychic test to " activate" the foce weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused any further wounds by the NFW that phase will be bound by the result of the psychic test.

 

ok by that wording it would seem that draigo doesnt fall into that rule. because they use the word Nemesis force weapons not just force weapons. but now read the daemonbane rule which would fall back to the point he does have the rule.

 

Daemonbane: any daemon or psyker that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from NFW must take a leadership test at the end of the assault phase . if the test is passed, nothing happens. if the test is failed the model is removed as a caualty. this abiltiy applies regardless of whether or not the NFW have been successfully activated.

 

NOW. this is a case of bad wording its oblvious. but by reading all entries here what you can look at

 

1: draigo has a sword that can goto str 10 if a psyker or daemon is in it.

2: the sword is master crafted

3: the sword has daemonbane

4: the daemonbane rule says it causes psyker and daemons only to take a ld test if they fail to save ( now here we go ) REGARDLESS if the NFW rule has activated.

5: draigo is a lvl 2 psyker ( there must be a reason why they did that )

 

 

so by everything here yes he can roll to activate which would mean this

 

1: any NON psyker or daemon who has an unsaved wound is inflicted by ID

2: any psyker and daemon is inflicted by ID also to unsaved wounds

3: if the psyker or daemon has EW that means the NFW is nullified

now here where everyone is missing

4: THAT SAID PYSKER OR DAEMON NOW MUST TAKE A LD ROLL AND PASS IT AT THE EN OF ASSAULT PHASE OR THE MODEL IS REMOVED FROM PLAY.

 

so in all

draigo has both rules

 

the whole reason it was stated this way was so he couldn't be 2+/2++ in CC

 

for the TL;DR people

 

Draigo has both rules just is a 2+/3++ model.

[Angelis Mortis]

Aye, I understood what you were getting at, I just don't agree. I think the line "If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's NFW that phase inflict instant death" specifically references the line before it, as it mentions the test and the unit, and not, for instance, a unit. Just reading the line as is, is taking it out of the context of the collective activation of a unit's NFW with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

 

Agree to disagree I suppose. :lol:

 

Actually I agree it does reference it, but it also says in the line about the BoP that ICs activate theirs individually. It doesn't say they behave differently.