survival or smashing face

[terminatorAM]

as the title says: is it better to play more defensively with some units and have them last longer or rush forward with all speed to kill the enemy and not worry about your own survival? I thought of this question when reading various threads promoting one of these ideas or the other, some saying first turn assaults were the way to win games, others saying that you cant score on turn 7 if everyone is dead by then.

 

obviously each unit will act differently and specialized army composition has it preferences (i.e. assaulty DoA will try to kill quickly, shooty mech will try to outlast) but what if you're running a hybrid list? in general what strategy best maximizes the strengths of a Blood Angel army?

 

Now before everyone gets the red thirst and starts shouting 'kill everyone and table your enemy' or 'you cant survive if the enemy is left shooting you' lets take a closer look at some pros and cons of each:

 

Defensive

Pros:

1. units could out last others that try for a quick kill and claim/contest in objectives later turns

2. better for shooty units that will have a longer time to do what they do best

3. waste opponent's resources as he spends more time trying to kill these units that are capitalizing on cover saves, transport protection, line of sight (or lack of)

4. wait for the perfect set up from maneuvering before assaulting enemies with maximum support and overwhelming odds

 

Cons:

1. enemy units last longer too and maneuver towards their own goals

2. worse tactic for choppy units that have to wait to use their specialty

3. shooting and assaults become secondary to survival leaving less offensive moves per turn

4. opponent may dig in as well leading to a grueling standoff game

 

Aggressive

Pros:

1. eliminates enemy threats as early as possible

2. best for assaulty units which are able to use their skills early

3. denies oppoent's units time to be killy themselves if you're successful

4. strait forward easy to use tactic

 

Cons:

1. leaves your units more vulnerable to counter-attack

2. lack of cover and protection makes your units die quicker

3. may not allow proper time for units to provide needed support for each other

4. may make squads into "suicide units" that kill quick and die quick

 

these ides are mostly conceptual and I havent had enough time to test them on everythink in the book. I can see benefits and issues with each option both not enough to form a strategy around and this t=is the point of this topic: do you form a defensive/reactive strategy or do you go for the aggressive/risky one. Id like this to turn into a forum discussion and not an argument so we can all benefit from eachothers experience and ideas. let me know if anything seems unclear and i can reword it as I just recently came up with this idea. If i get enough responses I my write a tactica based on it. So lets hear what you have to say

[vharing]

I play Blood Angels, Tyranids, and Dark Eldar. With each of those armies you have to be aggressive or your army just doesnt flow right. The few times I have tried to play defensively, my army gets bogged down and I end up with a game of attrition. For almost any BA army I right up one of my key units is a chaplain/reclusiarch, 10 DC with 2 PFs and either bolters or bolt pistols and CCW, and a DC dread with blood talons, all riding in a storm raven so they can get in my opponents face ASAP. With BA, having that first turn charge is a great help to the army. Getting rid of the enemy's hardest hitting unit before he can bring it to bear is key.

[syypher]

I've played many games and it's mostly against competitive armies. I've always played competitively and don't ever take "fluffy" or units for their fluff. I'm taking it this discussion you want to have is about tournament and competitive environments so I will answer as so.

 

"In general what strategy best maximizes the strengths of a Blood Angel army?"

 

To me this question your asking is best answered knowing your army fairly well, but the other army even better. I know my army pretty much inside and out and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

 

For a small example: The Razorback + 5 RAS. This unit is great for last turn obj steals due to going 18", it has a fair price for what it does and great survivability with las/plas or tl las. When assault cannons it becomes much less survivable because closer range weapons now can tag you easier. I know through my many games my TL AsC usually end up dying much more often than my home obj camping las/plas RBs. My RBs will usually be targeted fairly quickly in KP games so I usually deploy them behind my Pred AV13 walls. When it's an objective game I know no matter how much of my stuff dies, as long as I am controlling one more objective I win. The 5 man RAS inside the RB make great road blocks to advancing infantry. Sacrificial units that I can place at strategic choke points to force my opponent to assault them + consolidate or go around them. I know my RAS inside the RB aren't very scary but can hold small groups of units for a surprisingly long time, such as LFs and Lootas. (They will kill the lootas after a while) My RB has a scary amount of firepower and will usually be left alone when Baals are upcloser to the enemy or my dedicated CC unit is closing in.

 

Above is a small clip of what I know as far as ins and outs of my RB + RAS units in my army list. I can go on longer but you get the point. With that said I know my army fairly well, but knowing the other army and their weaknesses and strengths is even better.

 

Let's get back to your question: "In general what strategy best maximizes the strengths of a Blood Angel army?" Aggressive or Defensive

 

Another example but this time with IG, my second army. Most IG even their CC (ROFL) units are scared of any MEQ in close combat. No real argument there. Knowing their weakness, and knowing my army's strengths will push me towards the more aggressive route. In this scenario I will be as aggressive as possible. My Las/Plas Razorbacks will be rushing forward with the rest of army to engage those 5 RAS (one always carries a Meltagun) in CC. I want to get within 14" of their vehicles and infantry ASAP for the 2" deploy + 6" move + 6" assault. (Obviously when the vehicle hasn't moved) I want to charge into every infantry possible. Even if its a blob of 30 Infantry squad. I want to tie that stuff up so my anti-AV can goto town on their vehicles. My Las/Plas RB is doing a great job behind the lines shooting but the 5 guys inside are just sitting around doing jack, when they can be playing a vital role in typing up some HWTs or Lascannons/Autocannon squads. I have even assaulted vehicles with my guys just to get stun/ shaken results. If you play IG you know stun/ shaken is extremely neutering to have for a few turns on key vehicles.

 

Another example, orcs now. My friend plays a speed freaks Orcs army. One of the more competitive builds they have, it's the one DashofPepper uses. Basically it's 2-3 Lootas, 2 squads of warbuggies, 3x BWs with Nobs/ Burnaz/ Boys, 1x Trukk with Shootaboys, and KFFs and Ghaz. Pretty scary list, but it has it's weaknesses. The shooting is fair but I outclass the shooting by far with my Mech BA army. For this army I would play a more defensive role. Using the Razorback again I would probably be moving my Las/ Plas RBs 12" away but staying within 48" of the Battlewagons. I would use the 12" to get side shots on the BWs whenever I could. As offensive as it sounds...I would DEFENSIVELY rush my Assault Cannon RBs forward 1" away walling off the Battlewagons to slow down their movement to the rest of the army. (*see note below*) This will force them to move 1" to deffrolla my RB and stop right there...or leave the RB unscathed and waste movement going around my entire RB. All the meanwhile my shooting from the rest of my army, maneuvering away and also for side shots on the BWs are outclassing and outshooting the Lootas and Buggies.

 

 

So to answer your question in a tactical sense...know your army, know the enemies army even more. Know their weakness and what units they took in their list. Then you can decide what is the best course of action. Don't pick one way or the other when building your list, but instead build your list to be synergistic with itself and be well-rounded. Then your tactics can be chosen during the battle when you find out who you are going against. Knowing their army and the units in it help with this decision.

 

It's good to know for example that you will be on the losing end when charging a Libby +10 RAS + Priest into 8 wound shenanigans Nobs + Painboy. I did this when I did not yet know what orcs were capable of and I admit it was a fairly dumb move. My RAS + Libby + Priest were my "CC specialist" unit in my old army list and thought they could handle the Nobs. I was sadly mistaken. Now I just pop their vehicles and fire all las Preds, my Vindicator and MM attack bikes into them after their vehicle is gone. They are wiped out very easily when they only rely on 5++ and no FNP from instagib shots. Yet again this is only a small example of all the different things you need to know about someones army. But it is a stepping stone in showing that to decide on an aggressive or defensive stance you need to know the enemies army and units in it first.

 

I know it's a long read, but I hope that helps.

 

 

*Note: You might say they will just Deffrolla them! Well no, not with the tournaments I have seen and the rules the TO's have passed that I know of. If the RAM portion of the BW doesn't destroy the vehicle (which it won't to a RB when it's only 1" away) then even if the Deffrolla destroys or explodes the Rhino it cannot move forward continuing it's ram. Instead it stops right in front of the Rhino/RB. Right there it made contact for the ram and the vehicle blew up. I will NOT discuss this ruling here but it is the way we play, the way the TO's I know of run the rules and the way I have seen some big time TO's at well known tournaments run that specific rule.*

[LostAlone]

I tend to agree with syypher.

 

Blood angels certainly have a lot of awesome things to make playing aggressively with them very successful, but they are NOT one dimensional. You need to be looking at whats on the table to fight and thinking 'How do I stop this guy scoring ?'. The blood angels have access to just incredible assault units, and it's easy to forget that they are also probably the most tactically flexible of the marines. Having fast rhinos and razorbacks (and predators and vindicators come to that) gives you a lot more tactical options.

 

Yes they can get into the mix real fast, but they can also maneuver wonderfully and since the majority of your vehicles have one really pimp weapon, you can be moving 12" a turn and getting into side/rear arcs and really hurting the guys, without just charging headlong into them.

 

Basically what I'm trying to say is that you need to retain flexibility for as long as possible. In some games, its obvious what you want to be doing. If the other guy is going to sit back and shoot you, then yeah, you wanna be going into assault against their killer units ASAP. But you still wanna be looking at the other guys strategy and attacking the troops who complete objectives. Yes, you want to CC IG heavy weapon teams, but sending everything is often wasted force IMO. Sometimes you just need to kill, sure. But if its late in the game and your too busy killing people, you can over-commit and lose because a nippy squad zooms out to capture and you can't catch them in time.

 

You need to know what tricks the other guy has up his sleeve. Be focused on killing or tying up his units that he wants to win the game with. It's easy to keep your guys mostly protected in cover, out of line of sight or otherwise tucked away from heavy weapon fire. Be aggressive against those winning units. Commit your dudes to killing them or at least keeping them held down. While your doing this, get in position to snatch the objectives yourself.

 

So yeah, you ALWAYS wanna be 'aggressive' in the sense that you must proactively destroy the opponents attack force. Counter attack in massive force if he goes for the objectives early. If not, follow cover and use your vehicles to attack obvious targets (transports normally, bikes, similar fast stuff). If they are behind heavy weapons and other stuff that can derail your plans, then stay in cover, get your boys set up in objectives and set-up your nasty stuff such that attacking objectives is next to impossible for them. Baal predators and fast vindicators make both vehicles and troopers cry if they move in to take objectives.

 

Attack the game, not the enemy. When the enemy is between you and victory, kill them. But otherwise, the objective is the objective.

 

My two cents.

[syypher]

I tend to agree with syypher.

 

Blood angels certainly have a lot of awesome things to make playing aggressively with them very successful, but they are NOT one dimensional. You need to be looking at whats on the table to fight and thinking 'How do I stop this guy scoring ?'. The blood angels have access to just incredible assault units, and it's easy to forget that they are also probably the most tactically flexible of the marines. Having fast rhinos and razorbacks (and predators and vindicators come to that) gives you a lot more tactical options.

 

Yes they can get into the mix real fast, but they can also maneuver wonderfully and since the majority of your vehicles have one really pimp weapon, you can be moving 12" a turn and getting into side/rear arcs and really hurting the guys, without just charging headlong into them.

 

Basically what I'm trying to say is that you need to retain flexibility for as long as possible. In some games, its obvious what you want to be doing. If the other guy is going to sit back and shoot you, then yeah, you wanna be going into assault against their killer units ASAP. But you still wanna be looking at the other guys strategy and attacking the troops who complete objectives. Yes, you want to CC IG heavy weapon teams, but sending everything is often wasted force IMO. Sometimes you just need to kill, sure. But if its late in the game and your too busy killing people, you can over-commit and lose because a nippy squad zooms out to capture and you can't catch them in time.

 

You need to know what tricks the other guy has up his sleeve. Be focused on killing or tying up his units that he wants to win the game with. It's easy to keep your guys mostly protected in cover, out of line of sight or otherwise tucked away from heavy weapon fire. Be aggressive against those winning units. Commit your dudes to killing them or at least keeping them held down. While your doing this, get in position to snatch the objectives yourself.

 

So yeah, you ALWAYS wanna be 'aggressive' in the sense that you must proactively destroy the opponents attack force. Counter attack in massive force if he goes for the objectives early. If not, follow cover and use your vehicles to attack obvious targets (transports normally, bikes, similar fast stuff). If they are behind heavy weapons and other stuff that can derail your plans, then stay in cover, get your boys set up in objectives and set-up your nasty stuff such that attacking objectives is next to impossible for them. Baal predators and fast vindicators make both vehicles and troopers cry if they move in to take objectives.

 

Attack the game, not the enemy. When the enemy is between you and victory, kill them. But otherwise, the objective is the objective.

 

My two cents.

 

Ya. I was just giving a very straight example. I'm sure there are many ways you can look at what I said :lol:

[prenelf]

Vharing: Im just wondering how do you get first turn charge?.

 

On topic if your playing blood angels you should be playing aggressive that's why we have fast tanks stormravens deathcompany and assault marine troops its just what this army is made for

[LostAlone]

Vharing: Im just wondering how do you get first turn charge?.

 

On topic if your playing blood angels you should be playing aggressive that's why we have fast tanks stormravens deathcompany and assault marine troops its just what this army is made for

 

Oh definitely.

 

You just need to think more in depth than just RAWR!.

 

Go out and kill things in horrible ways, but chose the right things to kill.

[syypher]

Vharing: Im just wondering how do you get first turn charge?.

 

On topic if your playing blood angels you should be playing aggressive that's why we have fast tanks stormravens deathcompany and assault marine troops its just what this army is made for

 

No. Depends on how you army is built and what you are playing against. It's much more complicated than "what the codex is known for." I hardly play a "what were known for" BA army. Most of my army is mech and my only true counter CC I have is Meph. No Terminators, DC or HG; yet I have a lot of success with my list. Even Meph is used most of the time as counter assault instead of aggressive.

 

So like I said before in my big wall of text. It depends on how your army is and on what army you are playing against.

[terminatorAM]

thanks guys for the replys

 

I run a hybrid list that is mostly for fun but i want play it as if it were built for more even if some of the units aren't what everyone else would recommend, i also have several light vehicles (rhinos/HF razor) carrying CC units and have yet to test the latest incarnation of the list so after seeing some rhino rush tactics over in the tactics section i started second guessing my plan of attack, thus this topic so thanks for responding and i have realized i couldnt play this list defensively and will go in for the kill but its nice to have other support this idea.

 

back to examples for this topic: what about DoA assault squads with meltas? I thought it would be a great offensive move to land a combat squad w/ meltas behind a enemy tank and remove it before it could do much damage while the other half landed behind a rhino to leapfrog next turn as a CC support for a tact squad. this kinda suicides halve the unit but it could be worth it. what do you think, too smashy and not too survivally? i play mostly against eldar so limiting their tanks mobility is usually key to me winning, also my main opponent's nightspinner is a pain in my rear

[terminatorAM]

also heres my list if you want to look at it: Flesh Tearers with Seth

[Sorien]

then even if the Deffrolla destroys or explodes the Rhino it cannot move forward continuing it's ram.

 

Your TO's are making up rules that don't exist then. The deffrolla is part of the ram move, and thus the battlewagon gets to keep moving if the target vehicle explodes as per the ramming rules.

[1Drop]

I've played many games and it's mostly against competitive armies. I've always played competitively and don't ever take "fluffy" or units for their fluff. I'm taking it this discussion you want to have is about tournament and competitive environments so I will answer as so.

 

"In general what strategy best maximizes the strengths of a Blood Angel army?"

 

To me this question your asking is best answered knowing your army fairly well, but the other army even better. I know my army pretty much inside and out and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

 

For a small example: The Razorback + 5 RAS. This unit is great for last turn obj steals due to going 18", it has a fair price for what it does and great survivability with las/plas or tl las. When assault cannons it becomes much less survivable because closer range weapons now can tag you easier. I know through my many games my TL AsC usually end up dying much more often than my home obj camping las/plas RBs. My RBs will usually be targeted fairly quickly in KP games so I usually deploy them behind my Pred AV13 walls. When it's an objective game I know no matter how much of my stuff dies, as long as I am controlling one more objective I win. The 5 man RAS inside the RB make great road blocks to advancing infantry. Sacrificial units that I can place at strategic choke points to force my opponent to assault them + consolidate or go around them. I know my RAS inside the RB aren't very scary but can hold small groups of units for a surprisingly long time, such as LFs and Lootas. (They will kill the lootas after a while) My RB has a scary amount of firepower and will usually be left alone when Baals are upcloser to the enemy or my dedicated CC unit is closing in.

 

Above is a small clip of what I know as far as ins and outs of my RB + RAS units in my army list. I can go on longer but you get the point. With that said I know my army fairly well, but knowing the other army and their weaknesses and strengths is even better.

 

Let's get back to your question: "In general what strategy best maximizes the strengths of a Blood Angel army?" Aggressive or Defensive

 

Another example but this time with IG, my second army. Most IG even their CC (ROFL) units are scared of any MEQ in close combat. No real argument there. Knowing their weakness, and knowing my army's strengths will push me towards the more aggressive route. In this scenario I will be as aggressive as possible. My Las/Plas Razorbacks will be rushing forward with the rest of army to engage those 5 RAS (one always carries a Meltagun) in CC. I want to get within 14" of their vehicles and infantry ASAP for the 2" deploy + 6" move + 6" assault. (Obviously when the vehicle hasn't moved) I want to charge into every infantry possible. Even if its a blob of 30 Infantry squad. I want to tie that stuff up so my anti-AV can goto town on their vehicles. My Las/Plas RB is doing a great job behind the lines shooting but the 5 guys inside are just sitting around doing jack, when they can be playing a vital role in typing up some HWTs or Lascannons/Autocannon squads. I have even assaulted vehicles with my guys just to get stun/ shaken results. If you play IG you know stun/ shaken is extremely neutering to have for a few turns on key vehicles.

 

Another example, orcs now. My friend plays a speed freaks Orcs army. One of the more competitive builds they have, it's the one DashofPepper uses. Basically it's 2-3 Lootas, 2 squads of warbuggies, 3x BWs with Nobs/ Burnaz/ Boys, 1x Trukk with Shootaboys, and KFFs and Ghaz. Pretty scary list, but it has it's weaknesses. The shooting is fair but I outclass the shooting by far with my Mech BA army. For this army I would play a more defensive role. Using the Razorback again I would probably be moving my Las/ Plas RBs 12" away but staying within 48" of the Battlewagons. I would use the 12" to get side shots on the BWs whenever I could. As offensive as it sounds...I would DEFENSIVELY rush my Assault Cannon RBs forward 1" away walling off the Battlewagons to slow down their movement to the rest of the army. (*see note below*) This will force them to move 1" to deffrolla my RB and stop right there...or leave the RB unscathed and waste movement going around my entire RB. All the meanwhile my shooting from the rest of my army, maneuvering away and also for side shots on the BWs are outclassing and outshooting the Lootas and Buggies.

 

 

So to answer your question in a tactical sense...know your army, know the enemies army even more. Know their weakness and what units they took in their list. Then you can decide what is the best course of action. Don't pick one way or the other when building your list, but instead build your list to be synergistic with itself and be well-rounded. Then your tactics can be chosen during the battle when you find out who you are going against. Knowing their army and the units in it help with this decision.

 

It's good to know for example that you will be on the losing end when charging a Libby +10 RAS + Priest into 8 wound shenanigans Nobs + Painboy. I did this when I did not yet know what orcs were capable of and I admit it was a fairly dumb move. My RAS + Libby + Priest were my "CC specialist" unit in my old army list and thought they could handle the Nobs. I was sadly mistaken. Now I just pop their vehicles and fire all las Preds, my Vindicator and MM attack bikes into them after their vehicle is gone. They are wiped out very easily when they only rely on 5++ and no FNP from instagib shots. Yet again this is only a small example of all the different things you need to know about someones army. But it is a stepping stone in showing that to decide on an aggressive or defensive stance you need to know the enemies army and units in it first.

 

I know it's a long read, but I hope that helps.

 

 

*Note: You might say they will just Deffrolla them! Well no, not with the tournaments I have seen and the rules the TO's have passed that I know of. If the RAM portion of the BW doesn't destroy the vehicle (which it won't to a RB when it's only 1" away) then even if the Deffrolla destroys or explodes the Rhino it cannot move forward continuing it's ram. Instead it stops right in front of the Rhino/RB. Right there it made contact for the ram and the vehicle blew up. I will NOT discuss this ruling here but it is the way we play, the way the TO's I know of run the rules and the way I have seen some big time TO's at well known tournaments run that specific rule.*

 

 

I enjoyed reading that, got alot from it. I'm just a beginner gamer and I'm yet to play a game with my BA 5th Ed. But, I could take in what you were saying as you didn't get too technical and start talking in another language which is mainly numbers and +'s which I just switch off if I see cos I don't understand it! Lol. You should write more stuff (if you do, let me see) I'd read tactica if it was wrote simple like that so I could understand it.

[syypher]

I enjoyed reading that, got alot from it. I'm just a beginner gamer and I'm yet to play a game with my BA 5th Ed. But, I could take in what you were saying as you didn't get too technical and start talking in another language which is mainly numbers and +'s which I just switch off if I see cos I don't understand it! Lol. You should write more stuff (if you do, let me see) I'd read tactica if it was wrote simple like that so I could understand it.

 

@1Drop: Wow..thanks man :lol: That's real nice of you. I was very active here a while back but dropped off to play my other armies for a while. Glad you enjoyed reading my huge wall of text. Heh >_<

 

If your interested in DoA I have a tactica compilation in my sig. 99% of my games I play and my experience goes towards mech BA lists and playstyles though.

 

@Sorien: However the TO interprets the rules is the law. I have no say in it. They can say no mech spam and only 2 vehicles of each type allowed and it would be law. They can say no dangerous terrain tests for bikers or jump packs when jumping in and out of difficult and it would be law. Sad but true. I'm not going to argue it because well...I can't. What they say goes.

[1Drop]

I enjoyed reading that, got alot from it. I'm just a beginner gamer and I'm yet to play a game with my BA 5th Ed. But, I could take in what you were saying as you didn't get too technical and start talking in another language which is mainly numbers and +'s which I just switch off if I see cos I don't understand it! Lol. You should write more stuff (if you do, let me see) I'd read tactica if it was wrote simple like that so I could understand it.

 

@1Drop: Wow..thanks man :) That's real nice of you. I was very active here a while back but dropped off to play my other armies for a while. Glad you enjoyed reading my huge wall of text. Heh >_<

 

If your interested in DoA I have a tactica compilation in my sig. 99% of my games I play and my experience goes towards mech BA lists and playstyles though.

 

@Sorien: However the TO interprets the rules is the law. I have no say in it. They can say no mech spam and only 2 vehicles of each type allowed and it would be law. They can say no dangerous terrain tests for bikers or jump packs when jumping in and out of difficult and it would be law. Sad but true. I'm not going to argue it because well...I can't. What they say goes.

 

At the moment I'm building a mech army for two mech lists so the DoA stuff for now won be of much use to me. However, I do plan on building a DoA list at some point but I think I'd like to use SG in place of RAS for most of the list just to give me more gold to paint.