Gulag Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 long time lurker first time poster here my opinion on the subject is essentially thus: Primarch XI did something bad, like say, kill Primarch II. Then the Space Wolves are called to sanction the XI legion and this results in the ultimate death of Primarch XI. Two legions are left leaderless and in varying degrees of disorder and damage, and the Emperor has them merged in with Guilliman's XIII legion as he had (IMO) the reputation as a disciplinarian and was described in First Heretic as the most like the Emperor in personality. Just my two cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2763889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 long time lurker first time poster here my opinion on the subject is essentially thus: Primarch XI did something bad, like say, kill Primarch II. Then the Space Wolves are called to sanction the XI legion and this results in the ultimate death of Primarch XI. Two legions are left leaderless and in varying degrees of disorder and damage, and the Emperor has them merged in with Guilliman's XIII legion as he had (IMO) the reputation as a disciplinarian and was described in First Heretic as the most like the Emperor in personality. Just my two cents. Firstly, welcome to the forum! Sadly though, we know the Ultramarines didn't absorb the missing Legions, but the idea of one of the Primarchs killing the other. The part we need to remember though is that either at least one or both of the Primarchs and/or their Legions are still around, but "lost to us", considering that Dorn considers turning to them for help, so they can't have been entirely destroyed, and they can't have been merged (otherwise they'd already be helping, so Dorn can't request their help again). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2764398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagbenektelse Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 A couple of theories for the fun of it: 1- primarch lands on planet and doesn't have to fight for his life. Said primarch decides that pacifism is the life for him and then the emperor shows up. Seeing as the big e was very upset at the slow pace of lorgar how much anger is there going to be for a primarch that won't join in at all. The emperor cant leave the pinnacle of his lab work for some xenos to nab 2- primarch lands on an eldar planet or craftworld and is "accepted". Emperor bargains for him back because "all he wants is his son.". Emperor then destroys the tainted one 3- primarch goes all groupthink and is the precursor to the tyranid hive mind. Emperor can't wipe him out because there isn't really one body to wipe out anymore. So the emperor jettisons them out of the galaxy. For any of those reasons I think they could still be "technically" available for contact but no good would come of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2764914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearersOfSalvation Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 The part we need to remember though is that either at least one or both of the Primarchs and/or their Legions are still around, but "lost to us", considering that Dorn considers turning to them for help, He doesn't consider turning to them for help, he just wistfully said that he wished they could turn to them for help. Nothing he said implies that they're actually around, though it doesn't rule it out either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 my personal theory is this: they did something bad, rebeled against the Emperor. They were destroyed. The Emperor was able to erase them from the records as a single legion turning against him wasnt a galaxy changing event. How unoriginal, lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 my personal theory is this: they did something bad, rebeled against the Emperor. They were destroyed. The Emperor was able to erase them from the records as a single legion turning against him wasnt a galaxy changing event. How unoriginal, lol. ? WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asmodai78 Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 I though I read or heard (audio book, Lightening Tower I think ) that both legions suffered seperate fates, so to me that implies that neither were linked or had anything to do with what happened to each of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 The part we need to remember though is that either at least one or both of the Primarchs and/or their Legions are still around, but "lost to us", considering that Dorn considers turning to them for help, He doesn't consider turning to them for help, he just wistfully said that he wished they could turn to them for help. Nothing he said implies that they're actually around, though it doesn't rule it out either. Well, Malcador says something along the lines of "Don't even consider it, they are lost to us forever now", and the first part implies they're still around. If they're actually not there, there's no point in saying "don't even think about it!" like you're telling a child who's just about to do something bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearersOfSalvation Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Well, Malcador says something along the lines of "Don't even consider it, they are lost to us forever now", and the first part implies they're still around. If they're actually not there, there's no point in saying "don't even think about it!" like you're telling a child who's just about to do something bad. There is a point to it that you're overlooking, they're not supposed to ever mention the purged legions at all. No one, not even Primarchs or Malcador, is supposed to refer to those legions or their fate at all, that's why he responded like he did. Again, it doesn't rule out that one is still around, but it doesn't mean that they are iether. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 But once again, you can't turn for help from something that isn't there. If they were dead and gone, and their Legions destroyed, why would Dorn consider getting their help? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyros Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Funny thing that maybe can kill a few theory's. At least 5 HH-books says something along the line that astartes against astartes is unthinkable and has never happened before this is why (among other reasons) the HH is such a shock to the loyalist primarchs and in turn to the astrates that didn't follow their primarch into damnation. And I know what Russ says at the end of PB but my opinion is that he was joking or thought of conflict's within legions that had led to bloodshed. Or is one line gonna overrule something that has been underlined in several books? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmacht Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Maybe one of them pissed off the Emperor from something simple. Emperor had to go to the washroom and the primarch was taking his time. The Emperor is standing there holding it in banging on the door. Primarch comes out and sees the Emperor and just to rub salt he says "Oh sorry were you waiting long?". Even the Emperor would lose patience when having to go to the can. I kid though and really have no interest in finding out what happened. It's fun getting little ideas here and there from the novels but i'm more interested in reading about the Legions that are active in the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2765895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearersOfSalvation Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 But once again, you can't turn for help from something that isn't there. If they were dead and gone, and their Legions destroyed, why would Dorn consider getting their help? You can wish for help from something that is no longer there. It's the same thing as saying "I wish grandpa was still here, he'd love to help us fix this engine" - you're wistfully wishing you could ask the person for help, but they're not around any more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2767160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordOfSkyfall Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 3- primarch goes all groupthink and is the precursor to the tyranid hive mind. Emperor can't wipe him out because there isn't really one body to wipe out anymore. So the emperor jettisons them out of the galaxy. HAHAHA i like this one, far fetched but i like it, now at the Time of Ending there back for revenge HAHAHA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2767395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalythos Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 If it is one thing that both Chaos and Imperial Astartes at the time of the Heresy absolutely abhorred was Xenos. First Heretic *spoiler* Indeed, in the case of the Word Bearers, the very mention of a possible future where Xenos ravage the world of Humanity provoked great horror and constituted one of the catalysts for their fall to Chaos. Furthermore, the Word Bearers consider the chain of events that led to the eleventh primarch's doom as shameful. If its anything that warrants the characterisation of shameful, uttered by Astartes that are openly trafficking with the warp at this point (which they do not consider shameful), is Xeno cooperation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2768382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandmaster Anaziel Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 If it is one thing that both Chaos and Imperial Astartes at the time of the Heresy absolutely abhorred was Xenos. First Heretic *spoiler* Indeed, in the case of the Word Bearers, the very mention of a possible future where Xenos ravage the world of Humanity provoked great horror and constituted one of the catalysts for their fall to Chaos. Furthermore, the Word Bearers consider the chain of events that led to the eleventh primarch's doom as shameful. If its anything that warrants the characterisation of shameful, uttered by Astartes that are openly trafficking with the warp at this point (which they do not consider shameful), is Xeno cooperation. Your point is extremely valid. Xenos hatred is a very powerful thing. XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2768506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guillermus of Eisenheim Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 One of my theories is that the lost Primarchs simply died in the crash-landing on their planets. I know it sounds very simplistic, but think about it for a moment. It takes a lot to kill a Primarch, true, but if Primarch II, say, landed right in the middle of a lava flow, or landed on an aquatic planet and sank immediately to the bottom of the sea, he's not going to get back up. The Emperor therefore never found him during the Great Crusade, assumed correctly that he must be dead, and either absorbed his Legion into one of the others or just got rid of it entirely. He then destroyed all records because, as we saw in False Gods, the knowledge that something can actually kill a Primarch is devastating for morale - just look how the Luna Wolves reacted after the business on Davin. As for XI, I think xeno collaboration is the most likely, if their conduct is considered shameful. Maybe XI was taken in by Eldar or something, and decided to join them. Mind you, it's not impossible that he could just have died as well - being a Legion without a Primarch would be considered fairly shameful, as would being absorbed into another Legion or killed off altogether. I also quite like the idea of pacifism, or maybe he went rogue like Kurze. We may never know! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2768578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 However, it's stated that all 20 fought in the Great Crusade and led their Legions, so they can't have died on impact. Secondly, Curze smashed through the crust on impact and lived, so I'm thinking "lava flow" can be removed from the list of things capable of easily killing a Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2768590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guillermus of Eisenheim Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 However, it's stated that all 20 fought in the Great Crusade and led their Legions, so they can't have died on impact. Fair point. I'd forgotten about that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2768686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brannick Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I like to think that the missing Primarchs are in stasis somewhere; 'put away' because of flaw or oddity of power/gene - they 'house' something even the Emperor did not predict. Previously I made the assessment that one of them could well be the ultimate blunter/blank (the anti-Magnus), so strong in force that his/her (thought i'd add that in for a smile) presence actually dissipates Warp material. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2769439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blamb Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 ultimate blunter/blank (the anti-Magnus), so strong in force that his/her (thought i'd add that in for a smile) I like the sound of that. A stand in leader of the Sisters of Silence (with them not being marines). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2769777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 What I don't get is that if they were to be expunged from records and never spoken of again, why did the Emperor leave the numbering system in place. Surely removing the numbers would hide them alot better. Can you imagine some imperial scholar researching the history of the imperium, during the crusades and starts asking the wrong questions: Scholar "So why did you number the legions 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ,12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20? Surely you should have labeled them 1 to 18?" Emperor "Err... 20 was a round number" S "So you think certain numbers are lucky? E "No it just sounds better, 20, one score, twice ten." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2770796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I still hold on to the old Sigmar stuff, and will never let go. It's kinda interesting where the HH novels will go with the hints (or the revelation) of the lost legions/primarchs, but that's as far as I think it matters - a point of interest. Sigmar was one of them, end of discussion as far as I am concerned. *pours his squat friend a pint* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2770836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 One thing people haven't mentioned is the Grey Knight's Terminus Decree. Could it have something to do with the lost primarchs? An ultimate failsafe, if the Imperium was ever to be in dire straits; two full legions of Astartes and their primarchs is one hell of a strategic reserve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2771584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 One thing people haven't mentioned is the Grey Knight's Terminus Decree. Could it have something to do with the lost primarchs? An ultimate failsafe, if the Imperium was ever to be in dire straits; two full legions of Astartes and their primarchs is one hell of a strategic reserve. While I doubt it personally - I hold different theory to Terminus Degree completely, that's actually a pretty cool idea. Not bad at all. Of course this would mean it's a very deep cover hush-hush thing and GW is also fooling us readers/gamers as all the hints currently point towards tragedies. Still... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230042-lost-legion-how-bad-must-they-have-been/page/2/#findComment-2771636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.