Lost Legion - how bad must they have been

[BearersOfSalvation]

What I don't get is that if they were to be expunged from records and never spoken of again, why did the Emperor leave the numbering system in place.

 

Because a punishment is kind of ineffective if no one knows about it. Marines don't fear death really, but having your name, your chapter, your legion, your primarch, and all of your contributions to the Great Crusade completely removed from any history, and forever being a non-entity is pretty devastating. Those empty spots for statues aren't there because of bad planning, they're there to say 'this is your fate if you fall too far from the Emperor's grace'.

[Warp Angel]

My personal take on this is the following:

 

Fact: The Emperor is a pompus jerk who is convinced of his own superiority and that his bloodthirsty ways are the only ways.

Fact: There are plenty of allusions by Xenos races that the Emperor's way is not the only way.

Supposition: At least one of the Primarchs understood that the Emperor's way was not the right way - and objected.

 

Fact: The Emperor does not take kindly to people questioning his judgement.

Fact: The Emperor is a pompus jerk who is convinced of his own superiority. He eliminates any opposition quickly, including those that do not toe the offical line.

Supposition: The Emperor disowned his son(s) who told him to bugger off.

 

Fact: There are repeated references by primarchs that know of the fate of their fellow primarchs that brother has never fought brother.

Fact: The Emperor is a pompus jerk who is convinced of his own superiority. He's never going to admit to a mistake and destroying one of his greatest creations was beyond him until Horus had dealt him a fatal wound.

Supposition: He didn't destroy the disloyal son(s) or their legions, he merely banished them or sent them on a quest that he knew would result in their destruction.

 

This allows for the legions to be destroyed by attempting to complete a hopeless task or effectively gone forevery by being sent too far away to be any good. It allows for the missing legions to be "on ice" somewhere as a strategic reserve. It allows for the Emperor to have them serving his purpose still. AND it still allows for them to have done something "shameful" that merited their removal from the records of the Imperium.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i think you need to learn the difference between "fact" and "opinion"

 

or start reporting the news on Fox or MSNBC

 

WLK

[Walter Payton]

Fact: The Emperor is a pompus jerk who is convinced of his own superiority and that his bloodthirsty ways are the only ways.

 

What other ways were there? Aliens had been preying on humanity and attempting to annihilate for ten thousand years worth of the Age of Strife. Kill or be killed.

 

Fact: There are plenty of allusions by Xenos races that the Emperor's way is not the only way.

 

To paraphrase Christine Keeler: "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they."

 

Fact: The Emperor does not take kindly to people questioning his judgement.

 

And the people who question his judgement are generally wrong. Magnus directly disobeyed him, and look what happened to him. Look at the damage Magnus's disobedience caused; ripping open the human Webway spar and letting a Bloodthirster get into the Imperial Palace. Lorgar's disobedience led to a slowdown in the Crusade.

 

Supposition: The Emperor disowned his son(s) who told him to bugger off.

 

And despite Lorgar's disobedience, he did not disown him.

 

Fact: There are repeated references by primarchs that know of the fate of their fellow primarchs that brother has never fought brother.

 

But do we know that? How do we know these individuals even know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. We rarely see the primarchs speaking to themselves. If they are speaking to lesser individuals, they could be lying. There again, they might not be. Certainty is impossible.

 

He's never going to admit to a mistake and destroying one of his greatest creations was beyond him until Horus had dealt him a fatal wound.

 

Given that the motive given enarly everywhere is love and not personal pride, where do you get this from.

 

This allows for the legions to be destroyed by attempting to complete a hopeless task or effectively gone forevery by being sent too far away to be any good. It allows for the missing legions to be "on ice" somewhere as a strategic reserve. It allows for the Emperor to have them serving his purpose still. AND it still allows for them to have done something "shameful" that merited their removal from the records of the Imperium.

 

Not impossible.

 

i think you need to learn the difference between "fact" and "opinion"

 

or start reporting the news on Fox or MSNBC

 

WLK

 

Go to MSNBC. At least Keith Olbermann is funny.

[Brother Derringer]

Ultras were huge simply because they had a few star systems and their own REGION, not just planet, ruling out the absorption theory. Both the legions marines were either all destroyed after the incidents, or are still out there.

 

Screw the Fire Hawks, I still believe the LotD are one of the legions. LotD theory: They fought in the Great Crusade, but their Primarch did something bad. Russ killed him, and the rest of the legion was banished, with maybe one string of contact back to the imperium, possibly the big E or Malc. They're out on their own being mysterious and such and doing whatever the LotD do.

 

The other legion...I don't really have a good theory on that. Could be the Blood Ravens, but it seems that they're leaning towards Magnus being their Primarch. I forgot what it was called, but the legion that was in WD a long while back made by Andy Chambers? I've seen discussions about it before but I never remember the name.

 

My $1.05

[Walter Payton]

I forgot what it was called, but the legion that was in WD a long while back made by Andy Chambers? I've seen discussions about it before but I never remember the name.

 

The Valedictors.

[lee265]

Ultras were huge simply because they had a few star systems and their own REGION, not just planet, ruling out the absorption theory. Both the legions marines were either all destroyed after the incidents, or are still out there.

 

Screw the Fire Hawks, I still believe the LotD are one of the legions. LotD theory: They fought in the Great Crusade, but their Primarch did something bad. Russ killed him, and the rest of the legion was banished, with maybe one string of contact back to the imperium, possibly the big E or Malc. They're out on their own being mysterious and such and doing whatever the LotD do.

 

The other legion...I don't really have a good theory on that. Could be the Blood Ravens, but it seems that they're leaning towards Magnus being their Primarch. I forgot what it was called, but the legion that was in WD a long while back made by Andy Chambers? I've seen discussions about it before but I never remember the name.

 

My $1.05

No one destroyed there Primarch he is either directing them from wherever they are based or possibly he got wounded and was kept in stasis by Emperor Bob. Either way its why no one speaks of him. It's shameful to loose your leader and no one could order him out of stasis.

[Brother Derringer]

I forgot what it was called, but the legion that was in WD a long while back made by Andy Chambers? I've seen discussions about it before but I never remember the name.

 

The Valedictors.

 

Yesssss thats it :D

[Iron Lord]

In The Chapter's Due, there's a tomb of an Ultramarine called Ventanus- which raises a few questions about the Legion of the Damned:

 

 

He's referred to as "The Saviour of Calth". His ghost, while having the same flames on the armour as the LoTD, still has traces of Ultramarines livery as well.

 

[spu00sed]

From battle of the fang

 

 

page 419 Battle of the fang

 

We were made to destroy. Our whole being is destruction. Such is the will of the Allfather. He made us not to construct empires, but to murder them. We were bred for to perform the task no other legion could, to fight with such extravagance that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery on the knowledge of what we, the rout, would do to them.

 

"that power was exercised more than once. Most famously, as you know, against the enemy at the door"

 

 

[snorkle]

Not really anything PB didn't already tell us. I guess this means they're sticking with the Wolves as the Emperor's executioners.

[Justin Kase]

my personal theory is this: they did something bad, rebeled against the Emperor. They were destroyed. The Emperor was able to erase them from the records as a single legion turning against him wasnt a galaxy changing event.

 

The Horus Heresy was simply too large to erase however. It wasnt a single legion turning, but rather the being created to lead your armies into the future. there is no erasing that, even if his body had survived.

 

so, to sum up: 1 or 2 legions turing, managable. the Horus Heresy, too big to cover up.

 

WLK

 

Could also be that only the Emperor can order the expunging (sp?) of the records of a legion. Since he wound up in the Golden Throne, he never had the opportunity to issue the order, and no one is going to give that order in his name :lol:

 

He may well have intended to do so, but never had the chance - figuring he would enact those measures once the war was won.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

my personal theory is this: they did something bad, rebeled against the Emperor. They were destroyed. The Emperor was able to erase them from the records as a single legion turning against him wasnt a galaxy changing event.

 

The Horus Heresy was simply too large to erase however. It wasnt a single legion turning, but rather the being created to lead your armies into the future. there is no erasing that, even if his body had survived.

 

so, to sum up: 1 or 2 legions turing, managable. the Horus Heresy, too big to cover up.

 

WLK

 

Could also be that only the Emperor can order the expunging (sp?) of the records of a legion. Since he wound up in the Golden Throne, he never had the opportunity to issue the order, and no one is going to give that order in his name :D

 

He may well have intended to do so, but never had the chance - figuring he would enact those measures once the war was won.

that is actually what i believed occured.

 

and Caerolion: It is a downside because while the whole thing was a "charade" as you put it, it also had its consequences. a sort of double edged sword.

sure, everybody THOUGHT they were savages, so when it came time to deal out crap jobs, brutal fights and such guess who is first on the list to get sent? the savages. their opinions were readily mocked by the more "sophisticated" beings around them due to their savageness.

its only their charade of savagery that allows them to commit the barbarous acts they do, because while it appears they are monsters they have a idea of the threats they are fighting against. (until they meet somebody so far above the game they cant compete).

 

and actually, superman IS less powerful than his kryptonian counterparts due to his charade. he had limited himself so much for so long he isnt truely aware of what he is fully capable of. the other survivors of kyrpton, who have no human guise, embrace their strength and are actually more powerful than supes. it just happens that superman's humanity is what connects him to other beings (batman, martian manhunter, captain marvel) that can help him even the odds.

 

but i havent the desire to go through a long debate over this point so we have both had our say and lets agree to disagree, okay?

[JamesI]

Everyone, lets get back to the topic which is not a debate between Wolves/Night Lords/World Eaters.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ok, people, since you chose to ignore James1's warning, there is a new thread here -

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=231249

 

Keep the threads on topic, or start new ones.

[nuclear.anxiety]

I've had the lost primarchs conversation with friends, and we generally we either go round in circles or it boils down to nonsense hypotheticals. But we have, kind of, determined a few points that summaries the hours we've spent.

 

1 - All 20 legions fought in the crusade (implying that all primarch's accepted/ were compliant with the emperor and the imperial truth etc), but the 2 lost were so before the heresy. In the HH series, horus's visions as he's turned to chaos suggest it happened early on in the crusade- potential etc.

 

2 - The primarch's display traits of the emperor, (a point meant to quash the idea of mutation and other wild theories, but the first point took care of that.) But a possibility that at least one of the lost primarchs had psychic gifts and tried to warn the emperor of the future events (i.e. HH) well in advance only to be ridiculed and sent on suicide missions and shunned until extinction.

 

3 - The issue of the last primarch to be found and the secrets there are often brought, but quickly shot down.

as they were known to be 2 distinct legions- i.e. the 1st point and the last of our group just finished descent of angels & I'm about to start reading Legion on the weekend so I don't know how much of a rumour the twin issue is or how well the secret was kept.

 

 

4 - The likelihood of either remained functional as a fighting force is very low, since they don't seem to have assisted or sided with either side in the heresy. Also, I'm pretty such they haven't been heard from since, i.e. they have no presence in 41M

 

5 - The Emperor was out fighting in his crusade up until Horus was made Warmaster, meaning more involvement and scrutiny so infractions mightn't have needed to be too bad

 

6 - The primarchs seem to have been constantly crusading from the moment they took command of their legion, so the nature of the infraction is more likely to revolve around this.

 

7 - Astartes fighting Astartes seemed so abhorrent to so many, and given the size, influence and difficult-to-kill-ness of the legions; suggests the KIA etc option rather than the death by Astartes.

 

8 - the ego's of the Astartes and primarchs were such that, it seems, a legion lost in warp travel or something as similarly benign would've been a tragedy to them. If a mortal or feeble means brought a legion down I imagine the primarchs would wish to strike said legion off the register, to remove the reminder, but the emperor mightn't be so keen so blank reminders remain.

 

9 - the weakest primarch(s): the emperor was essentially born human. Who's to say a primarch was nothing much more than human, maybe immortal, psychic, incredibly intelligent etc etc but ultimately possessing none of the super human characteristics to sustain a legion (or maybe work on creating the SM for the legion wasn't too advanced, re: alpha legion)

 

There's a few more points, i think, but it's getting late so I'll leave it there

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Don't forget the conversation Dorn and Malcador had for your list. It implies that it's possible for them to return/be contacted, but they aren't allowed/don't want to.

[captain areias]

Don't forget the conversation Dorn and Malcador had for your list. It implies that it's possible for them to return/be contacted, but they aren't allowed/don't want to.

Maybe the lost wasn't "lost" in a traditional sense, maybe something happened to him like he lost his sanity or something in the great crusade and the Emperor had everyone stop talking about it because he didnt like the idea of primarchs going insane after witnessing some horrific event.

Primarchs can genetic flaws, im sure they could have a lot of other mental instabilities.

[Jim Shady]

Hasn't there been a few snippets on info in all the HH boks regarding the lost legiosn.

 

Russ implied he might have had something to do with both of them being wiped out. I think ATS, I think Ahriman and another cpatina mention something about but one of them scolds the other and reminds them of the oaths they took, never to speak of it again. Think Magnus mentions something about the last time all the Primarchs were together had something to do with the lost legions.

 

All we're going to get is just snippets and nothing concrete. Damn you GW.

[Brannick]

I wonder - in Nemesis it is mentioned that the Vindicare Eristede Kell had previously taken out Brother-Captain ___________ - could it be that this was a B-C from 2 or 11 - we may never know!

[Derrios]

Long time lurker, but im reading HH series right now, and this is something, as a fan of GW W/W40k for over 2 decades almost (man im getting old!). I've definitely started to view the HH as an allusion to the Bible(on a very basic level). I know its not directly coorelated, but I can definitely see some Milton-esque Paradise lost stuff going on. Emperor (God) and Horus (Satan) and the Primarchs (arch angels). Horus (Satan) was always favored and began to not trust what the Emperor (God) was doing.

 

Perhaps some personal bias filters my view, but I think GW wanted to work in myraid points of view with this arch. It allows us to create in our heads and wonder "what if". That's something ive always admired. If it doesn't leave you guessing or wanting more it wasn't well written.

[HellHunter]

Well, think about what the Primarchs were physically and in some cases, psychically; they were superhumans. If a primarch landed on a world where religion was key (much like Lorgar's) they could have been

easily worshipped as a god. What if that happened? Primarch lands on a planet, becomes a prophet/messiah to the people and they hail him as a god. Primarch really digs that idea and believes it. Lets add the factor that this may even have been a technologically advanced society (again, centered around religion) and had a level of technology not quite up to the Imperium. Lets go ahead and throw in the option that they have their own interstellar empire with a well-developed Navy. (They mentioned in one of the HH books that they encountered a lost human world that even had a crude power armor. Cant remember who though ATM).

Here goes:

The Emperor shows up and meets Primarch.

Emperor presents 2nd Legion to Primarch.

Unfortunately, Primarch doesn't agree with the idea of the Emperor or maybe even see's himself as the Emperor's equal (ala Gods of Olympus sort of way).

The Emperor is a bit miffed about this and tries to reason with Primarch.

Primarch doesnt listen and sends forth his personal army of technologically advanced crazed fanatics.

A prolonged war with an advanced civilization is not something the fledgling Imperium wants to deal with right now.

The Emperor sends in Russ and the Wolves to end it as quickly as possible (ie kill the Primarch)

Primarch dies, his civilization is suppressed and his Legion is doled out amongst the others (or tucked away for whatever nefarious GK secret plot)

The Emperor is so ashamed at the idea that one of his Primarchs considers himself a god that he has all records expunged.

 

In other words, it may not have been the Legions in particular that did something bad; it could have been the Primarch and the Emperor expunged the records so no other Primarch would try to follow suit.

 

There. Thats my theory on the matter. Not the greatest but hey, just thought I would throw it in there.

 

Thanks :D

[Azarias]

Hasn't there been a few snippets on info in all the HH boks regarding the lost legiosn.

 

Russ implied he might have had something to do with both of them being wiped out. I think ATS, I think Ahriman and another cpatina mention something about but one of them scolds the other and reminds them of the oaths they took, never to speak of it again. Think Magnus mentions something about the last time all the Primarchs were together had something to do with the lost legions.

 

All we're going to get is just snippets and nothing concrete. Damn you GW.

 

You're referring to Magnus and Lorgar's chat in the first part of The First Heretic. There Lorgar expresses concern that his legion might have been the third to be expunged for its 'crime' of worshiping the Emperor.

[Brother Excedis]

Now I've read somewhere that they created this blank to allow some DIY legion and primarch action for those daring enough to do so (I almost did until I found Sanguinius and the BA ;) ). I don't remember where I found this but it was some interview I found online when I discovered their missing information from the rule book.

 

However for fluff reasons, I believe they may be some form of end game or tactical reserve. Sanguinius has foresight. Magnus had incredible psychic ability. The other primarchs sometimes had something similar. We all know they received part of their father's powers/skills/abilities. So what if he foresaw the HH and the slow degredation of his beautiful empire? Then he needed to set something aside for that happening as an endgame, trump card, or last ditch effort. So he decided two legions and their primarchs were the optimal force to use. I mean that is an incredibly potent endgame. Then say one was psychically null like a culexes assassin? maybe another could detect psychic like it was an everyday effect like breathing? (just ideas) Now say these two legions did something wrong. They broke daddy's favorite toy or got into a big dispute with each other or something. The emperor has a lot of power so he could have placed "their fates were not connected". So he sees this need and sees two legions who need to be punished but are still needed. So he says "Alright boys you are both in incredible trouble. But you are still very important and I still love you both. Now I am going to die soon and I need you to go off and basically do nothing but build yourselves up and prepare for when you are most needed by the imperium (like chaos breaches into realspace on a galactic scale i. e. the gods actually walk the galaxy or the nids come through and muff everything up). This is highly important. Now you are not allowed to do anything until then because of your transgressions. etc etc". The emperor was the smartest "human" being. So he sees this need and fills it in while punishing those who needed to be so. Then he has his other sons cover this up. He sees which ones he can truly trust and tells them the complete truth while others are only given some of the truth. Then for Dorn's comment say he was very close with one of them and wistfully wants his favored brother's advice. Magnus cannot detect them if they are psychically null (either from primarch or other lost technology). The gods may not know about them because they are both focusing on something monstrously huge (the HH) and then the emperor uses some of his guile and power to hide them.

 

Now there are two legions out there who have been training and building up weapon stocks and forces. Obviously if they have been doing this for some time they will be beyond even the capabilities of the most veteran of the current marines. Plus with them as legions they will make up for the meager forces of individual chapters. Plus maybe they have the missing primarchs with them, know how to find them, and can heal/ressurect those who are dead or almost dead (guilliman). Now the legions can be reunited and those chapters who cannot identify their primarch can now do so because primarchs can always recognize the children of their genestock. There is your all encompassing endgame or trump card.

 

Just an idea I can up with while reading this thread ^_^ Feel free to criticize

[Domhnall]

My fanciful explaination for the missing legions is as follows:

 

One of the legions (let's assume II) has an incident during warp travel, and the entire legion is tainted by Chaos. This could be an early attempt by the Chaos Gods to sabotage the Great Crusade, many years prior to Horus' Fall.

 

When they emerge from the warp in a system already turned over to the Imperium, they immediately descend on the inhabited planets and slaughter all they find.

 

Once word of this reaches the Imperium, everybody is shocked that one of the legions would turn on it's people. As the Emperor was the only being who had any knowledge of the powers of Chaos, the Imperium at large was ignorant of what caused the legion to turn and asumed it was the Primarch who had gone mad with power.

 

The Big E, not wanting to share his knowledge lest it taint others, let everybody assume this was the case. The nearest forces close by were the Wolves and Legion XI, so the Emperor sent these in secret to deal with Legion II. They were soundly defeated by the combined might of the two legions, and the planet they were on was fired on from orbit. To explain to the people of the Imperium, the Emperor told everyone that Legion II destoryed itself through their own madness. This would explain why Marines within other Legions don't know brother fought brother before the heresy. After this approach failed (or did it?) the Gods went for their more subtle alternative route of tainting individuals.

 

After the purging, the Wolves went about their business, whereas the primarch and marines of Legion XI couldn't live with what they had done and were forced to keep secret. The Primarch spoke to his father, and after many days of discussion (where the Emperor shared some of his knowledge etc), it was agreed that the Primarch would leave the imperium with his legion, knowing that all record of his deeds and existence would be removed from the archives.

Where the legion went, or what mission they have, nobody knows.

 

I know it's not the best explaination out there, but can explain why one was purged, and the other lost ;)