Kevlarshark Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Pure speculation... If you went back to using the Andy Chambers/Pete Haines codex what would you use? What would you miss from the 5Ed codex? What wouldn't work now that was devestating back in the day? I personally loved that codex (why else would I start this thread?) but lets see what you guys/gals think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Lash of Submission (got to love messing with other peoples models :))! Rubrics with invulnerable saves... WS5 Khorne Berserkers... (Only WS 4 in 3.5... yes?) Maybe some other stuff... but I can't think of that much at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 id miss daemon princes and plaguemarines, vindicators for all and bp, bolter and ccw for CSM. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Deamon prince with deadaxe. Good bye, vulkan and your lame 3+ inv terminator squad... Thanks for coming out. 5 man lascannon / plasma gun squads with tank hunters 4 autocannon havoc squads with tank hunters elite noise marine havoc squads with 4 blastmasters Chaos lieutenants as Cheap HQ The dark blade Chaos HQ with bike mounted meltagun 3x special weapon raptors Mutation + spiky bits aspiring champions with powerfists Aspiring champions with spiky bits, mutation, deamonic strength, furious charge, and power weapon (aspiring champions used to be real workhorses back in the day) 15 point powerfists (It's really lame how they're 25 points and one less attack now. Especially since it's pretty much a mandatory upgrade for all CC squads. Its like GW price hiking all their models.... so weak). 1 reaper autocannon per 3 terminators Infernal device on land raiders Elite obliterators with autocannons and heavy bolters, and with a better stat line. Ability to infiltrate the entire army .... Berzerkers are probably more effective now, no blood rage, ws 5, but furious charge berzerkers with khornate chain axe were also pretty good. No FNP on plague marines would suck, but really, I usually use 10x CSM these days instead of 7x plagues so not much of a difference here. Deamon prince is probably cheaper, but far less powerful. 2x CCW defilers Lash (kind of) Warp time Obliterator plasmacannons (although I'd still rather have the oblit unit from the last dex). That's pretty much it. Everything else in the new codex wouldn't be missed at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Think I might miss my extra point of WS on my Defilers and Chaos Lords But I think the Old Raptors (when they could have Furious Charge) and came with Hit'n'run! Would make up for it! Especially in My Night Lords Army! Lash of Submission (got to love messing with other peoples models :P)!Rubrics with invulnerable saves... WS5 Khorne Berserkers... (Only WS 4 in 3.5... yes?) Maybe some other stuff... but I can't think of that much at the moment. Didn't think anyone used rubics ;) Definately on the ws5 for bezerkers... but they did have fleet (sort of) and the option of having veteran skills. chaplain belisarius Posted Today, 12:08 PM id miss daemon princes and plaguemarines, vindicators for all and bp, bolter and ccw for CSM. The upgraded Lord to deamon prince was one of the the things many people declared overpowered/broken about the 3.5 dex...nowadays DPs come in twos regardless of the fluff. Havent seen too many Vindis around either...perhaps they are hiding behind the Obliterators? :) I am not sure if +1 attack due to BP CCW is worth the trade off... CSM are more expensive and lost the ability to take veteran skills and they could have had an 'assault' loadout at the expense of their bolters. Admittedly Both Bezerkers and PMs are more powerful in our current codex and Rubics are more flexable...but almost everything else seems very underwhelming. Think I miss more about the 3.5 than I would about our current codex....I am probably starting to sound a little bitter :lol: Back onto a positive note :- Does anyone think the much critisised "Iron Warrior" or all Infiltrating "Alpha" lists are still broken against the current 5th Ed codexs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 An all stealth night lords army would be pretty ridiculous too, given the abundance of cover in this edition. All infiltrate would still be broken, especially since this could be done with 2x lords with deamonic speed, and some chosen also with deamonic speed, so you have a 24" potential threat range on turn 1 (which you usually know if you're getting thanks to the new deployment rules). Especially dirty if you pop some fast attack deamons off the unit with the deamon icon, also on turn 1. Iron warriors with 9x oblits and 3x defiler would probably still be pretty brutal too, even without the plasma cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Current codex is from 4th edition, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hmm, well I reckon I'd use the same models I use now except that my dark apostle will actually function as a dark apostle. Novel idea. I'd miss FNP on PM, FC on zerkers, and that's about it. In it's place our defilers can fire indirectly again, the land raiders don't suck, and IW can have 4 heavy support slots. What's not to love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 An all stealth night lords army would be pretty ridiculous too, given the abundance of cover in this edition. All infiltrate would still be broken, especially since this could be done with 2x lords with deamonic speed, and some chosen also with deamonic speed, so you have a 24" potential threat range on turn 1 (which you usually know if you're getting thanks to the new deployment rules). Especially dirty if you pop some fast attack deamons off the unit with the deamon icon, also on turn 1. Iron warriors with 9x oblits and 3x defiler would probably still be pretty brutal too, even without the plasma cannons. The 3.5 codex only allows for ONE Lord, and that includes Sorcerer Lords, Fighty Lords, and Daemon Prince Lords. And Iron Warrior builds were one of the broken things about that codex. By the way, you either need another Defiler or a Basilisk to bring it up to speed (Iron Warriors sacrifice 2 Fast Attack slots to gain 1 Heavy Support slot. Nasty in Planetstrike, yes?) Current codex is from 4th edition, is it not? Indeed it is. I was going to say, I hope (and expect) the 5th/6th Edition codex to be far superior than the codex being used now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Sorry. 1x Lord, 1x Lieutenant w/ deamonic speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Heh! I forgot what a work of badassery the last codex was... I used to actually enjoy creating army lists from it thinking "I havent tried that option yet or I wonder will this work?" *sigh!* QUOTE (Agent Purple @ May 18 2011, 05:34 AM) An all stealth night lords army would be pretty ridiculous too, given the abundance of cover in this edition. All infiltrate would still be broken, especially since this could be done with 2x lords with deamonic speed, and some chosen also with deamonic speed, so you have a 24" potential threat range on turn 1 (which you usually know if you're getting thanks to the new deployment rules). Especially dirty if you pop some fast attack deamons off the unit with the deamon icon, also on turn 1. Iron warriors with 9x oblits and 3x defiler would probably still be pretty brutal too, even without the plasma cannons. I quite liked the Night lords covers save thingie... It would rarely be better than their standard armour 3+ save though and has no benefits if you catch them in the open, so while useful not exactily un-counterable. I think the All Infiltrate might be the most frightening of all the possible builds from the old codex but I dont think its any more nasty than a all-Deep Strike or all-Outflank list (and there are a few characters who will let your opponent cease turn 1 leaving your sneaky guys high and dry). A turn 1 summoning was not possible and I don't think cavalry (or Counts as cavalry) units can infiltrate, and even if they could that squad is only possible with each chosen upgraded to Aspiring Champs and would cost 47 ish points! Thats a big eggy basket! 9 Oblits 4 defilers = Leafblower chaos! but a close to 1000pts you dont have much room for anything else...and a Dante descent of angels or Webgate Dark Eldar Army would eat it alive... a Heavy Guard list would just blast it off the table... Yes Sick things were possible, but now every army can do Sick things now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Heh! I forgot what a work of badassery the last codex was... I used to actually enjoy creating army lists from it thinking "I havent tried that option yet or I wonder will this work?" *sigh!* QUOTE (Agent Purple @ May 18 2011, 05:34 AM) An all stealth night lords army would be pretty ridiculous too, given the abundance of cover in this edition. All infiltrate would still be broken, especially since this could be done with 2x lords with deamonic speed, and some chosen also with deamonic speed, so you have a 24" potential threat range on turn 1 (which you usually know if you're getting thanks to the new deployment rules). Especially dirty if you pop some fast attack deamons off the unit with the deamon icon, also on turn 1. Iron warriors with 9x oblits and 3x defiler would probably still be pretty brutal too, even without the plasma cannons. I quite liked the Night lords covers save thingie... It would rarely be better than their standard armour 3+ save though and has no benefits if you catch them in the open, so while useful not exactily un-counterable. I think the All Infiltrate might be the most frightening of all the possible builds from the old codex but I dont think its any more nasty than a all-Deep Strike or all-Outflank list (and there are a few characters who will let your opponent cease turn 1 leaving your sneaky guys high and dry). A turn 1 summoning was not possible and I don't think cavalry (or Counts as cavalry) units can infiltrate, and even if they could that squad is only possible with each chosen upgraded to Aspiring Champs and would cost 47 ish points! Thats a big eggy basket! 9 Oblits 4 defilers = Leafblower chaos! but a close to 1000pts you dont have much room for anything else...and a Dante descent of angels or Webgate Dark Eldar Army would eat it alive... a Heavy Guard list would just blast it off the table... Yes Sick things were possible, but now every army can do Sick things now! D. Speed is 'move as' cavalry, unit type remains unchanged... so yes, infiltrate. Deamon summoning is not normally possible on turn 1, except with chosen daemon banner which let you automatically summon the unit bound to it at the start of any of your turns. Stealth adept was pretty good back in the day to keep your gunline alive vs. high S low AP shots. In 5th ed it would be extremely good seeing as how all cover (with stealth adept) is pretty much 3+, which makes your guys extremely survivable since cover is everywhere.... You could take a 20 man mean shield squad, put 10 dudes in area terrain, string the other 10 out, and park all your models behind the first unit getting a 3+ on every model in your army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razblood Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 3.5 Khârn - Eternal Warrior 4.0 Khârn - One shot kill by anything S8+ According to fluff Khârn should have EW but for some daft reason or other he doesn't anymore? Also I feel that army builds could be a lot more characterful in 3.5, unless you cared more about maximum beard/minimum effort type armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 The Pandemic Staff and Nurgle's Rot. Not necessarily the most useful of upgrades, but flavourful as all get out (and considering that I modelled my Nurgle force to be in the throes of this particular disease and for its Lord to carry a Pandemic Staff, it sort of makes a wee bit o' sense). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 D. Speed is 'move as' cavalry, unit type remains unchanged... so yes, infiltrate. Deamon summoning is not normally possible on turn 1, except with chosen daemon banner which let you automatically summon the unit bound to it at the start of any of your turns. Stealth adept was pretty good back in the day to keep your gunline alive vs. high S low AP shots. In 5th ed it would be extremely good seeing as how all cover (with stealth adept) is pretty much 3+, which makes your guys extremely survivable since cover is everywhere.... You could take a 20 man mean shield squad, put 10 dudes in area terrain, string the other 10 out, and park all your models behind the first unit getting a 3+ on every model in your army Heh! I stand corrected... But on the 3+ save thing... yes you get a 3+ cover save which while useful against low AP weapons is no better than the 3+ save they already have against every thing else! Might make things like the dragonfire Sternguard ammo or other "ignore" cover weapons feel more useful...Nids and Orks would completely ignore it (being CC heavy) Guard can use orders to counter it and the deep strike/ drop pod/outflank armys will probably arrive in a way that counters much too! So like a lot of tactics if viewed in isolation appears powerful...but if your opponent expects it then not so much:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 To be honest the all infiltrating 3.5 CSM list wasn't bad... yer you could get first turn assaults (and still could if you used it) but it wasn't the be all and end all and still wouldn't be now... People go on about how broken the dex is and maybe a couple of the lists were above average strength for their time (although I still managed to beat them from time to time) but compared to the strongest lists of todays game I would say 3.5 chaos is dex has no lists that are stronger than them... it has lists that might be as tough... but it wouldn't change the game... except that we would see more chaos armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 I think the fact that it has lists plural makes me sad with nostalga...I didnt mind that some factions were super tough (but few people do when its their codex thats feared by opponents) I played a bezerker build and enjoyed every aspect of building a list and playing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Like every Chaos Worshippers who had played back in the good days of the 3.5 Dex, what i really miss, is the versatility of the wargear section. I mean why my current Zerkers forgot how to use Khorne's Axes and how to wield Collars around their necks?... Why my Deamon Prince, who is supposed to be the BIG BOSS of the army doesn't have acces to the wargear?,seriously when you take a Khorne DP, you shut yourself from any options... Why is it that my Chosen, have forgottent their Veteran skills after 10k yaers of figthing?... Why is it that my Techmarine(who i suspect to have worked for Microsoft before), as uninstalled my LR's AI?... Why is that Cult Termies are taking a nap in the Warp?... And why, oh Blood God's bloody ass,why Khârn did loose is EW rule... So thats all what i would keep. I worked with a friend to make some update of the 3.5 dex to 5 Ed,when done i might post it in the homerules section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 I would like to see that... Let us know when its finished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 That glorious codex, My favourite choice was: Chaos lord, dark blade, daemonic strength, furious charge, mutation, bolt pistol, spiky bits = 6 S8 attacks on the charge, 1 reroll to hit. S9 if you threw in stature, but I liked my lord to be able to hide in units. So very easy to make 200pt+ lords of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 make him AL and add infiltration for 3 pts drop strengh take speed deployment 12-18" dudes range 19-24". what i realy miss is the diffent builds . demon bombs [even if I never played them in tournaments]and shoty lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darknightdrako Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I started out with using the 4th ed C:CSM, halfway through building my army I took a look at what 3.5 C:CSM dex I keep hearing about. Lets just say I drooled alot while reading the 3.5 and saying kept on saying why did they get rid of so many options and legion rules. Oh well I still prefer C:CSM over C:SM. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I miss the Legion rules, period. Sure, the only one I ever used was the all-Infiltrating Alpha Legion, but I enjoyed list building World Eater and Thousand Sons army for gits and shiggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Chaos 3.5ed was my favourite codex for just the insane amount of builds you could come up with, if we ever get a new dex I would love to have that flexibility again but it seems with the current trend we will have to pay a Charecter tax to do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkTom Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 These are only assumptions on my part. Last time I played Chaos you could give your Greater Demon a plasma cannon, so I totally missed the 'glory days' of 3.5. Really... 2-3 through 5. I have to assume the Demon codex came out right around when CSM:Dex 4.0 came out. To this day, I do not understand how they could create a stand alone Demon codex when /all/ of the fluff was that they could not come over to reality unless someoen brought them over. Because of the Demon Codex, I can only assume that is why there are 'generic demons' in the CSM Dex... to not undercut the 'new' Demon Codex. I will assume in the 3.5 Codex there were real demons in there. Then ther are the slight insults... If you just look at the Raptors as just Assault troops from the Vanila codex, they compair reasonable well at first glance. Your 5 man Raptor with a Champ and a Power fist is 140pts vs 125 for Vanilla Marine. Assault Marines can only get plasma pistols, so their effectivness in CC is not weakened, while the Raptors can get plasma or melta guns, making them alittle more versital, but losing effectivness in CC. But then there is that damned Icon just making them more expensive than Assault Marines, plus the added insult of paying 20pts vs 18pts a fig. Nice that Marines are cheaper and don't have to pay for ATSKNF. So I have to ask, even thoguh that was a eariler codex, do the point costs compair to the ealier marine and chaos codexs? Did Gav just make them more expensive for shiggels and gits? To be honest, the CSM Codex /needs/ Combat Tactics with a named character or two from every major rogue chapter, even something like this... Huron (Astal Claws - renegade) and Huron (Red Corsariers - Chaos). They need 'And They Shall Know No Fear'... then the damned Icons actually mean something. Re-do Chaos Glory to something else... like Stubborn (make it cost more too, like 20pts), give Slannesh +2 Init (bump up the cost 5pts) and allow units like Obliterators to take a Icon. Bring back Tech marines, Chaplins, and Apothocaries. Make Demonic Possition actually work like PotMS (keep it BS 3 though). Give us cult troops straight out of the IG book with Chimeras and a Leman Russes. Just make them standard Platoon Infantry Squads (not vets) that can carry Icons. I think Whiteshields would be an excellent option as well. Heck, give us a generic CCS HQ option incase someone wants to do all Chaos IG. Same goes with Demons. You make the CSM codex and the Demon Codex one book. Now /that/ would make me happy. I will note there are some little things I do like... I like the versitility of the Rhinos being given combi-weapons or a Havoc launcher. Chaos Rhinos are actually not terrible for a 10-15pt upgrade! I like that Land Raiders are dedicated to the Terminators so a Chaos list could have up to 6 of them if it so desired. I also like the weapon versitility of the Terminator load-outs and the Obliterators. The Chosen are really effective and are good elite choices. But my comparison is only between the Chaos and Vanilla codex, not 3.5 vs 4.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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